Time

[Croat]

I read recently that vision is the quickest of our five physical senses, but even so it takes 13 milliseconds (13/1000 of a second) for light hitting our retina to be processed by our occipital lobe.  This means that, technically (and I’m being very technical here), we are never experiencing the actual present, only the past, at least 13 ms in the past.  I’ve always known the future is unreal, it is only a mental construct, an imaginary concept, an ever-changing unveiling, but it came as a surprise to learn that the present is also not as real as I thought, at least according to that 13 ms difference.  Which makes the past, perhaps ironically, the only aspect of time that we actually experience.  And that perspective on time has amplified my focus on the past when I do readings, more so than before.  Just a bubble thought to share, but there it is.

[JoyousGirl]

Here's my thought bubble in response to yours.

 

For whatever reason, this made me think of birds of prey and, more generally evolution and adaptation. 

 

A bird that spies its prey from a distance must have a faster occipital processing speed (well, that's an assumption). So eagles/raptors. What about nocturnal birds? 

 

The prey will move slower than the processing speed. But with distance, the bird will also need to move rapidly (and has evolved and adapted to move silently).

 

Now, going back to my old theory that time is only going to ever exist as a result of movement. There must be a creation of time within the action.

 

44 minutes ago, Croat said:

Which makes the past, perhaps ironically, the only aspect of time that we actually experience. 

 

Is thought an action or a movement? Because many of us 'live' in the past or dwell there. Dwell is an interesting word. The future and past are in the mind, whatever is going on in the now is an action prompted by thought (or inaction). Is there any action, or is it all just thoughts "brooding above the water" of a consciousness where nothing really exists?

 

I looked up etymology online to understand why "dwell" seemed to be of importance or so interesting to me. 

 

Here's the text (found here: https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=dwell):

 

dwell(v.)
Old English dwellan "to lead into error, deceive, mislead," related to dwelian "to be led into error, go wrong in belief or judgment," from Proto-Germanic *dwaljana "to delay, hesitate," *dwelana "go astray" (source also of Old Norse dvelja "to retard, delay," Danish dvæle “to linger, dwell,” Swedish dväljas “to dwell, reside;” Middle Dutch dwellen "to stun, perplex;" Old High German twellen "to hinder, delay") from PIE *dhwel-, extended form of root *dheu- (1) "dust, cloud, vapor, smoke" (also forming words with the related notions of "defective perception or wits").

The apparent sense evolution in Middle English was through "to procrastinate, delay, be tardy in coming" (late 12c.), to "linger, remain, stay, sojourn," to "make a home, abide as a permanent resident" (mid-14c.). From late 14c. as "remain (in a certain condition or status)," as in phrase dwell upon "keep the attention fixed on." Related: Dwelled; dwelt (for which see went); dwells.

It had a noun form in Old English, gedweola "error, heresy, madness." Also compare Middle English dwale "deception, trickery," from Old English dwala or from a Scandinavian cognate (such as Danish dvale "trance, stupor, stupefaction"); dwale survived into late Middle English as "a sleeping potion, narcotic drink, deadly nightshade."

 

 

I'm not sure if I have a point. I ramble and go off on tangents a lot. 😊

[Chariot]

@JoyousGirl
How interesting!  Dwelling as in 'the physical house where we live,' in the modern context.  How did that evolve, I wonder?  From an abstract concept meaning a mental state (in a negative sense ...madness, defective wits, stun, perplex, go wrong) to an actual physical house where people live—or even an archaic reference to a village, town, or city where people live?

The old Scandinavian meaning seems to differ from other sources, like the Germanic versions.  I wonder how Scandinavians would have referred to the negative mental aspects of this modern word 'dwell'—madness, defective wits, etc.  Did they have a separate word for those concepts?

And what about the Germanic languages and Old/Middle English?  How did they refer to a 'house? or a village or town? I suspect they also would have had a different word to describe where you might locate or visit a particular person.

Word evolution is fun to look at, isn't it?

[Ferrea]

7 hours ago, Croat said:

I read recently that vision is the quickest of our five physical senses, but even so it takes 13 milliseconds (13/1000 of a second) for light hitting our retina to be processed by our occipital lobe.  This means that, technically (and I’m being very technical here), we are never experiencing the actual present, only the past, at least 13 ms in the past.  I’ve always known the future is unreal, it is only a mental construct, an imaginary concept, an ever-changing unveiling, but it came as a surprise to learn that the present is also not as real as I thought, at least according to that 13 ms difference.  Which makes the past, perhaps ironically, the only aspect of time that we actually experience.  And that perspective on time has amplified my focus on the past when I do readings, more so than before.  Just a bubble thought to share, but there it is.

 

That moment when the light hits your retina is your true present. You are not the light—so why bother where it was 13 ms ago? 

[JoyousGirl]

3 hours ago, Chariot said:

Dwelling as in 'the physical house where we live,' in the modern context.  How did that evolve, I wonder?

 

I reckon migrating with the seasons was our original way of being - I think we're still supposed to be doing that so we don't overburden mother Earth. A bit like leaving a field fallow. Children are ungrateful as many mothers know. Anyways....

 

So we started lingering in places, for whatever reason.  Maybe the way the word was used had connotations "it's mad to stay here over winter" 

 

Maybe our Scandinavian members can tell us more about their use and understanding?

 

2 hours ago, Ferrea said:

That moment when the light hits your retina is your true present. You are not the light—so why bother where it was 13 ms ago? 

 

Nothing exists until we are aware of it? Then if we forget about it, it no longer exists. But it does, conscious and unconscious awareness. I'm thinking of a spiderweb now. We've moved along, but it's somewhere else on the mesh of time. I have no idea what I'm on about. I think madness and defective wits are dwelling in me right now! 😆

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Raggydoll]

Dväljas is a poetic expression, not a word used in regular speech. I modern Swedish, the preferred synonym would be vistas. 

[Ferrea]

27 minutes ago, JoyousGirl said:

Nothing exists until we are aware of it? Then if we forget about it, it no longer exists. But it does, conscious and unconscious awareness. I'm thinking of a spiderweb now. We've moved along, but it's somewhere else on the mesh of time. I have no idea what I'm on about. I think madness and defective wits are dwelling in me right now! 

 

 

Not quite what I said. My point is about differentiating whose present we're talking about. I was under the impression that the concepts of present, past, and future were the concern of the OP—not the question of existence or non-existence.

[Croat]

Usually when I see the etymology of a word the evolution of changes track more or less linearly.  But dwell -- what a strange word!  Its roots include meanings for delay, persist, whirl, swirl, obfuscate, go astray, deceive, mislead, retard, dust, vapor, smoke, defective perception, et al.  Getting linearity out of that mixture of words is a struggle.  Makes me want to create a new word:  Ordwellian.  But as the OP I should probably not dwell on the word dwell...

[DanielJUK]

This topic is going off-topic for the area, if we want to discuss time, we need to discuss it in relation to tarot. Theories and ideas about time and tarot are most welcome.

We can't discuss philosophical broad concepts about time because it's an off-topic discussion. We are a tarot and divination forum.

There is an off-topic chat section of the forum for subscribers, where deep and meaningful debates on non-tarot things are welcome

Let's keep it on topic here, or we will have to close the thread, time in relation to our tarot practice.

How do we see the past, present and future?

[Chariot]

As I am a pragmatic reader of Tarot, I tend to regard Time in relation to the time-frame referred to in the querent's specific question ...certainly when it comes to 'the future.'   The past can be more nebulous, but again, it's usually related to the topic or question.

 

In the Celtic Cross spread—as I read it—the Past position refers to what has been ongoing but is now leaving the situation.  Present is 'right now' as the question is being asked. Future can be any time specified in the question ...from less than a day to a much longer period.

Asking the right question, and framing the specific time period the question covers, are the most important things I do, to get an accurate reading.

Unlike some really talented people, I don't do numerical cards, or 'seasonal' cards or anything of that nature to determine a time frame—although I've had that sort of reading given to me, with astonishing accuracy.  Sometimes I wish I could come up with a system that works for me, that will tell me a  more exact time to expect future things to happen. But at the moment, it's just intuition and careful wording of the question that gives me future 'time.'

Edited August 6 by Chariot

[JoyousGirl]

On 8/5/2025 at 9:04 AM, Croat said:

Which makes the past, perhaps ironically, the only aspect of time that we actually experience.

 

The past is an accumulation of our experiences - from family to non-family interactions and external events, to the thoughts we've formed based on social training or rebelling against that. So that past makes us who we are and it's the foundations upon which we 'rest' (I think what Chariot said about dwelling as a house is really important here because it includes our sense of safety, lack and agency). Experiences that hit and are registered - equating this with the processing speed of the occipital lobe, let's say, comprise the "cell structure and messaging system" of our physical housing and all its idiosyncrasies and how we act (whether that's a decision or automatic, reactive etc?)

 

So when looking at the past in the tarot, as a position, and then combining it with the question, we are shown an event or person (is it an 8 of Swords? 3 of Cups? 5 of Wands? Knight of Pentacles? etc).

 

Then because that foundation is interacting with the present to create the future, we can see that they're all linked? So we're living in all timezones at once, creating the future in the now and also the past but also the present. And with free will involved it's all plastic, but the greatest power of creation is the now. So maybe we're dwelling in the past, while creating it?  But maybe we're stuck on auto-rotation. We could tell someone the outcome they hope for at card 5 of the Celtic Cross, or we could tell them the actual outcome at card 10. But if they know that outcome, can they change their minds or disrupt a pattern? What does Position 9 say?

 

That might be indicated at card 6 in the near future. 

 

So card 7 could tell us what's going on in combination with card 3 (or 4) for the past within us.

Card 8 could tell us the environment that's acting on us (and possibly triggering past reactions or creating new ones)

 

So yes, your focus on the past is going to be important in helping your sitter.

 

It would be great to do some exercises around this. We can't change the past but we can hopefully see the progress of evolution travelling through it.

 

Edited August 7 by JoyousGirl