What are the strengths of each tarot system?

[jupiter]

1 hour ago, Misterei said:

I don't read with Thoth deck any more, 

 

No need to answer if it's too personal of a question, but your very definitive statement piqued my interest as to "why?" 🙂 Did it give you all you had wanted from it, or have you found something that just works better (for you)?

[Misterei]

3 hours ago, jupiter said:

No need to answer if it's too personal of a question, but your very definitive statement piqued my interest as to "why?" 🙂 Did it give you all you had wanted from it, or have you found something that just works better (for you)?

I got into Thoth quite intensely back in the 1990s and early 2000s. At that time my magical teacher used it. Later, i was involved with OTO, so also using Thoth quite a bit. Around 2010 my spiritual practices changed direction and I no longer felt Thoth fit my relationship with Tarot or spirituality. Also, as much as I like the artwork--it never really resonated for me. After so many years with Tarot I've come to understand that I quite like the RWS artwork and also the art of the older Tarocchi decks. I have a few modern decks i enjoy--but also modern decks i've purchased then ened-up giving away b/c the artwork just didn't read well for me. I kept a Thoth deck for teaching purposes and reference. But I never felt connected to the artwork or the card titles. I found the titles were too limiting for how i read. That being said, I still find the Art card and the Star card as some of the most beautiful Tarots ever created. But I don't feel that way about the whole deck--just those 2 cards.

Edited November 10, 2025 by Misterei

[Scandinavianhermit]

On 10/31/2025 at 8:41 PM, Chariot said:

Oh, yee ha!  I didn't give away my Universal Wirth Tarot after all!  It's languishing in the bottom of the box where I keep empty tuck boxes (because I like to put my decks in lidded boxes.)  

I wouldn't call Universal Wirth Tarot a Wirth deck at all (It's a Palumbo Tarot!), nor the so-called Oswald Wirth Tarot from US Games (which was drawn by Michel Simeon in 1966). Why all these ghastly re-drawings, when Wirth himself drew two perfectly useful sets of the trumps himself? It's just confusing to name cards not drawn by Wirth after him. 

[Chariot]

13 hours ago, Scandinavianhermit said:

I wouldn't call Universal Wirth Tarot a Wirth deck at all (It's a Palumbo Tarot!), nor the so-called Oswald Wirth Tarot from US Games (which was drawn by Michel Simeon in 1966). Why all these ghastly re-drawings, when Wirth himself drew two perfectly useful sets of the trumps himself? It's just confusing to name cards not drawn by Wirth after him. 

I wasn't aware of that.  Thanks!

[Chariot]

I am getting ready to do a first reading for myself using  Thoth.  As I am an absolute beginner, I'm kind of at a loss as to what sort of question to ask.  Can I get a recommendation from @Rose Lalonde or @Nemia - both of you indicated you use Thoth for deeply personal readings.  What would be a good question to ask?  Or a good way to ask a question.  I imagine the Thoth will give me insight into my own approach to things and feelings about things, rather than attempting to solve problems on a pragmatic level.

I'm 76 years old, and while I'm still in reasonably good health (knock wood) and so is my husband (who just turned 80) I am concerned about what to prepare for in the coming few years.  I feel hamstrung by the sudden changes that have come with digitalisation of EVERYTHING, and a loss of personal contact when it comes to getting problems sorted—health issues, property issues, tax issues, banking issues, etc.  Access to all these things has suddenly become extremely difficult or almost impossible.  I'm not particularly digitally challenged, but I am very fearful of losing control of day to day things, due to increasing digital requirements and digitally-accessible services.  Fears of losing access to my phone, my email, etc.  Not to mention the dangers associated with my private life becoming a commodity that the Elon Musks of this world can snaffle and manipulate.

How would I formulate a question for the Thoth system, regarding this/these issues?  

[Chariot]

17 hours ago, Misterei said:

I got into Thoth quite intensely back in the 1990s and early 2000s. At that time my magical teacher used it. Later, i was involved with OTO, so also using Thoth quite a bit. Around 2010 my spiritual practices changed direction and I no longer felt Thoth fit my relationship with Tarot or spirituality. Also, as much as I like the artwork--it never really resonated for me. After so many years with Tarot I've come to understand that I quite like the RWS artwork and also the art of the older Tarocchi decks. I have a few modern decks i enjoy--but also modern decks i've purchased then ened-up giving away b/c the artwork just didn't read well for me. I kept a Thoth deck for teaching purposes and reference. But I never felt connected to the artwork or the card titles. I found the titles were too limiting for how i read. That being said, I still find the Art card and the Star card as some of the most beautiful Tarots ever created. But I don't feel that way about the whole deck--just those 2 cards.

To be honest, I'm struggling to get to grips with the artwork as well.  It's all deeply symbolic ...and the symbols don't mean much to me because I don't feel that kind of surety about the universe.  It makes me really appreciate what Pamela Coleman-Smith did!

 

I'm happy to NOT know the Big Secrets of the Universe, and just ride with whatever works in the here and now.  The whole Thoth approach—which is actually quite rigid, when looked at closely—behaves exactly like a religion—although it claims it's not.  But what else is religion, other than an elaborate and rigid construction based around some man-made concept about Creation, and our place in the cosmos?  So I'm kinda driving with the brakes on, when it comes to Thoth.

 

It's not really the complexity that puts me off ...it's the fact that, deep down, I don't subscribe to Crowley's vision of the Universe.  I've read through DuQuette's book—which was very well-written—and now have a rudimentary understanding of the system which I didn't  have before.  But I don't believe in any of it enough to make me an accolyte.  There are some interesting insights that I can take back to RWS, so it's been worth my while, for sure.

I haven't totally given up on Thoth.  I do intend to try reading with it, and see how that works out.   In the here and now.  🙂

[DanielJUK]

Why not see how the deck will work out for you with an interview spread?

 

[Chariot]

2 minutes ago, DanielJUK said:

Why not see how the deck will work out for you with an interview spread?

 

Okay, that can be a way in.  I'll give it some thought as to what questions to ask regarding the deck's interaction with me.  Thanks.

[Rose Lalonde]

4 hours ago, Chariot said:

Can I get a recommendation... for deeply personal readings.  What would be a good question to ask? 

 

I feel hamstrung by the sudden changes that have come with digitalisation of EVERYTHING, and a loss of personal contact when it comes to getting problems sorted—health issues, property issues, tax issues, banking issues, etc.  Access to all these things has suddenly become extremely difficult or almost impossible.  I'm not particularly digitally challenged, but I am very fearful of losing control of day to day things, due to increasing digital requirements and digitally-accessible services.  Fears of losing access to my phone, my email, etc.  Not to mention the dangers associated with my private life becoming a commodity that the Elon Musks of this world can snaffle and manipulate.

There's no rule (unless you ask someone who believes there's a rule 😉 ) I can only tell you that if it were me, I'd do best asking the Thoth something like, How can I cultivate a sense of control in the face of a changing digital world? And I'd ask the RWS something concrete like, How can I best handle this banking access problem I'm having now?, for one example. (In each case, I draw 3 cards in a row, and read the line.)

 

4 hours ago, Chariot said:

I'm happy to NOT know the Big Secrets of the Universe, and just ride with whatever works in the here and now.  The whole Thoth approach—which is actually quite rigid, when looked at closely—behaves exactly like a religion—although it claims it's not.  But what else is religion, other than an elaborate and rigid construction based around some man-made concept about Creation, and our place in the cosmos?  So I'm kinda driving with the brakes on, when it comes to Thoth.

My interest is the alchemy, hermetic Qabalah, etc., and Crowley does a good job of trying to articulate that on the cards. As above, So Below: from all things being One at the Aces to the complexity of the everyday world we experience at 10. The idea that the two are actually the same, a matter of perspective. But I don't think it matters so much why you like the Thoth. From what you said, it wouldn't be the same reasons I like it. Some people love it for Harris' art. Some for the 'mood' of the deck. Some like Crowley's writings. If there's nothing that makes you yearn to pull the Thoth out frequently, that works too -- you'll have learned something about what does and doesn't improve the usefulness of your own readings. That's all I ask when I'm trying something new.

 

When you say the Thoth behaves like a religion... you're not wrong, particularly if you're reading Crowley's works. He included his philosophical and religious movement, Thelema. Plus, cards correspond to positions on the hermetic Tree of Life. My own Thoth 'driving with the breaks on' is my belief in Crowley's imbalance: his enthusiastic appreciation of action and conviction while undervaluing the power of patience and uncertainty.

Edited November 11, 2025 by Rose Lalonde
brevity!

[Chariot]

2 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

There's no rule (unless you ask someone who believes there's a rule 😉 ) I can only tell you that if it were me, I'd do best asking the Thoth something like, How can I cultivate a sense of control in the face of a changing digital world? And I'd ask the RWS something concrete like, How can I best handle this banking access problem I'm having now?, for one example. (In each case, I draw 3 cards in a row, and read the line.)

Great question, and exactly the kind of insight I was hoping to get from Thoth.    Something a bit more inward-looking than the RWS.   Not that the RWS can't give me inward-looking responses to the right questions. But I'd like to see what the Thoth makes of my basic, unadorned self that probably needs a boot up the backside, spiritually speaking.

2 hours ago, Rose Lalonde said:

My interest is the alchemy, hermetic Qabalah, etc., and Crowley does a good job of trying to articulate that on the cards. As above, So Below: from all things being One at the Aces to the complexity of the everyday world we experience at 10.

 

This is actually one of the concepts the Thoth uses that I like ...that the Aces aren't so much a 'beginning' of each tarot suit (as the RWS method usually reads them) but are actually a 'summation' of everything each suit contains.  I plan to use this idea, even when I return to RWS.

 

When you say the Thoth behaves like a religion... you're not wrong, particularly if you're reading Crowley's works. He included his philosophical and religious movement, Thelema. Plus, cards correspond to positions on the hermetic Tree of Life. My own Thoth 'driving with the breaks on' is my belief in Crowley's imbalance: his enthusiastic appreciation of action and conviction while undervaluing the power of patience and uncertainty.

Exactly.  Uncertainty.  That's where I'm happy to be.

The Tree of Life is a concept I've encountered often, but it doesn't resonate with me at all.  (So I'm already in trouble with Crowley!)  A tree is a tree.  It's a large plant, with roots, stem, branches and leaves.  Don't get me wrong; I love trees and plants.  But I don't see them as symbols of my life, or the Universe itself.  They are themselves.  Different from me, with arms, legs, head, and the ability to run around.  Does a philosophical tree see a human as symbolic of its Universe?  Probably not ...although who knows? 🙂

 

I accept there is very little about the makeup of the Universe that I do understand.  I certainly don't understand what created us, or what—if anything—is in control of our existence.  However, I resist the compulsion to 'make sense' of what I don't know by devising systems or religions to 'explain' what I don't know.  I would inevitably either get knotted up trying to reconcile things that don't fit the system, or I'd end up tralala-ing through my day, happily glossing over whatever doesn't fit.  

I have had the RWS tarot work for me, sometimes in startlingly specific ways. So I use it.  But I don't know how or why it works.  That doesn't bother me.  If I can use the Thoth system to gain insight and answers that also work for me, I'll be delighted.  But I am unlikely to buy into any of its ...dogma?  If that's the right word?  I don't want to sound flippant or dismissive.  But I need to be sure, before I Believe in something.  I don't Believe in something in order to be sure— if that makes sense.

 

[Misterei]

 

11 hours ago, Chariot said:

... I'm 76 years old, and while I'm still in reasonably good health (knock wood) and so is my husband (who just turned 80) I am concerned about what to prepare for in the coming few years.  I feel hamstrung by the sudden changes that have come with digitalisation of EVERYTHING, and a loss of personal contact when it comes to getting problems sorted—health issues, property issues, tax issues, banking issues, etc.  Access to all these things has suddenly become extremely difficult or almost impossible.  I'm not particularly digitally challenged, but I am very fearful of losing control of day to day things, due to increasing digital requirements and digitally-accessible services.  ...

I feel you!

Of all the doomsday predictions and futurists--I feel this fellow Ra Uru Hu [inventor of Human Design philosophy] got it right with his predictions about 2027 as being a tipping point where Everything Changes. He's a bit wacky but the 2027 stuff hits for me. We are no longer homo sapiens. This new level of tech has made us Something Else.Ai may make use Something Else.

 

Thoth might excel at this sort of reading. Crowley was big into the Aeon of Horus and #20 is renamed as Aeon. So for reading about future trends and things of that nature--thoth is probably well-suited. I might use Mystical Tarot personally--you know I love that deck for weird topics. But this strikes me as the sort of question Thoth is well suited to answer.

 

11 hours ago, Chariot said:

... The whole Thoth approach—which is actually quite rigid, when looked at closely—behaves exactly like a religion—...

Thelema absolutely is a religion.

And in the end this is one reason i stopped reading with thoth. RWS has Christian and Golden Dawn symbolism, yes, but I find I can get past that and use the deck from a universal perspective. Reading with thoth I always felt that I was fighting against the strong thelemic vibe built into the deck. It didn't seem to lend itself to the universal perspective that I want from a deck. 

Still, I do think it would be a good deck to ask about things like AI and the breakdown of interhuman systems as direct human contact is increasingly influenced by tech and dependent upon tech.