ilweran Posted May 2 Author Posted May 2 1 hour ago, ilweran said: There are at least four different versions of that card now - seems Chesca couldn't stop changing it! And a rather beautiful draft version that came up on eBay a short while ago. Sadly I couldn't even bid as they wanted $100 for shipping to the UK!
Natural Mystic Guide Posted May 2 Posted May 2 8 hours ago, fire cat pickles said: Is this it? This is the Four of Stones 'Protection'. I feel so fortunate to have found a deck at a second-hand bookseller online. The cards are in excellent condition. The book is a little marked up. The separate paper wheel of the year is missing. Every time I touch my deck I feel gratitude. It is so beautiful. The new Kickstarter deck has had the colors modified -- a deeper saturation.
fire cat pickles Posted May 2 Posted May 2 This was the other one I found on carto. I doubt it is The Lovers (not even sure it's from the Greenwood!). There were no other cards there.
ilweran Posted May 2 Author Posted May 2 57 minutes ago, Natural Mystic Guide said: The new Kickstarter deck has had the colors modified -- a deeper saturation. They did a terrible job on the Celtic Shaman's Pack reprint - I could have done better! 48 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said: This was the other one I found on carto. I doubt it is The Lovers (not even sure it's from the Greenwood!). There were no other cards there. That's not from the Greenwood, looks like Tarot of Trees or something similar.
katrinka Posted May 3 Posted May 3 (edited) 2 hours ago, ilweran said: That's not from the Greenwood, looks like Tarot of Trees or something similar. I think it looks like a label on a 1970's shampoo bottle. 🤣 This: meets this: Edited May 3 by katrinka
PathWalker Posted May 3 Posted May 3 8 hours ago, fire cat pickles said: This was the other one I found on carto. I doubt it is The Lovers (not even sure it's from the Greenwood!). There were no other cards there. That is from Tarot of Trees by Dana Driscoll- lovely deck.
gregory Posted May 3 Posted May 3 It's all thoroughly ick. I don't plan to have anything to do with it, but if anyone knows how to show KS Mark's video where he says he hasn't the rights....
katrinka Posted May 3 Posted May 3 11 hours ago, gregory said: It's all thoroughly ick. I don't plan to have anything to do with it, but if anyone knows how to show KS Mark's video where he says he hasn't the rights.... Where is it? There should be some way to grab it. I use an add-on to grab youtube videos...
Laura Borealis Posted May 3 Posted May 3 (edited) On 4/27/2025 at 7:46 PM, katrinka said: Click his name (Martin Hughes) and it says he joined in April of 2025 and "created" the Greenwood. It's Mark's alias. https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/thegreenwoodtarot/created Does that mean, Martin Hughes created the deck, or created the Kickstarter? Not saying it doesn't sound sketchy - it very much does. I saw something about this on YouTube (via Tom Benjamin), thought about backing it for about 5 seconds, then came here to see what tf is going on. Edited May 4 by Laura Borealis
ilweran Posted May 4 Author Posted May 4 I don't know about a video, but the interview is here - https://wildhunt.org/2012/10/talking-with-mark-ryan-part-2.html (Also you were asking about who Lutine is, I believe that's Mark Ryan's current wife.)
DanielJUK Posted May 4 Posted May 4 11 minutes ago, Laura Borealis said: Does that mean, Martin Hughes created the deck, or created the Kickstarter? Not saying it doesn't sound sketchy - it very much does. I saw something about this on YouTube (via Tom Benjamin), thought about backing it for about 5 seconds, then came here to see what tf is going on. They are the host of the Kickstarter and a new account there. We are not sure who it is but maybe an alias of Mark Ryan Mark is publishing the deck on a crowdfunder but we think without Chesca's permission
ilweran Posted May 4 Author Posted May 4 (edited) It's definitely without Chesca's permission - they've said they've not heard from her and are putting royalties aside for if she makes contact. The legal question is over the original contracts, which we're not privy to obviously, but Ryan has previously said it couldn't be reprinted with out Chesca's agreement. Obviously even if he has the legal right, morally it's iffy as it's well known Chesca was against a reprint. A bit of research says that only the copyright holder or their representative can do anything. eta - even if he can legally reprint the deck, the fact is he's also providing an extra card from an art piece he owns, which surely isn't included in that legal right. I'm also surprised he thought it was a version of The Lovers, given it's very obviously in the style of the minor arcana. Edited May 4 by ilweran
katrinka Posted May 4 Posted May 4 10 hours ago, ilweran said: https://wildhunt.org/2012/10/talking-with-mark-ryan-part-2.html PAYDIRT. Beautiful! Better than a video! 10 hours ago, ilweran said: It's definitely without Chesca's permission - they've said they've not heard from her and are putting royalties aside for if she makes contact. If he had Chesca's permission he'd have been shouting it from the rooftops. Her brother is still around. I recall him on facebook, (not sure he has an account, he may have gone through someone else) saying that yes, Chesca holds the copyright and no, she doesn't want to reprint the Greenwood. No need to "put royalties aside", let the family have it or put it in escrow for her. And I can't picture an indie kickstarter deck making "royalties", even this deck. It's not a hit record in the 60s and 70s. It's a little niche product. Everything he says sounds like BS. Hey, what's this? Probably a dead end, but maybe not... https://www.holisticgeek.com/greenwood/chesca/main.htm 10 hours ago, ilweran said: (Also you were asking about who Lutine is, I believe that's Mark Ryan's current wife.) [text edited]
Laura Borealis Posted May 4 Posted May 4 1 hour ago, DanielJUK said: They are the host of the Kickstarter and a new account there. We are not sure who it is but maybe an alias of Mark Ryan Mark is publishing the deck on a crowdfunder but we think without Chesca's permission I looked at the comment section of the Kickstarter, and he's using the Martin Hughes acct. but signing Mark, so yes, that looks an alias.
Laura Borealis Posted May 4 Posted May 4 (edited) Just for fun, here's a comparison of one version of alternate Lovers card, the 2 of Cups, and the Kickstarter bonus (cropped screenshot from the campaign page). Edited May 4 by Laura Borealis
Rodney Posted May 4 Posted May 4 Someone posted on Reddit about the campaign, and I responded. I'm sure lots of hate and downvotes will follow, but oh well... For those not on Reddit, here's what I posted: Quote Mark Ryan knows he has zero claim to be able to reprint the Greenwood, which is why the campaign isn't being done under his name. Knowing the full story, I could only glance through that BS revision of history that makes him more than just the (after the fact) author of the companion book for the deck... (Chesca so hated what he wrote, that she wrote and freely released her own companion guide.) Anyone who is up in arms about AI in tarot should be just as up in arms about a poseur claiming to have rights to reprint something he doesn't... Just like I try not to buy bootleg decks, I won't support crowdsourcing campaigns from people who I know have no claim to what they're trying to crowdsource... But if your conscience lets you support that campaign, then more power to you!
Raggydoll Posted May 4 Posted May 4 13 minutes ago, Rodney said: Just like I try not to buy bootleg decks, I won't support crowdsourcing campaigns from people who I know have no claim to what they're trying to crowdsource..
katrinka Posted May 4 Posted May 4 (edited) 15 hours ago, Laura Borealis said: Just for fun, here's a comparison of one version of alternate Lovers card, the 2 of Cups, and the Kickstarter bonus (cropped screenshot from the campaign page). Found in the wild on reddit: ETA: This is not my photo. Originally I linked to the reddit post where it appeared. I will say that the photo was posted by someone using the screen name u/ElenoftheWays on reddit. The title of the thread is "Greenwood Lovers Card - does anyone have a different version?" Attribution is important. Edited May 4 by katrinka Attribution added after link was removed
gregory Posted May 4 Posted May 4 On 5/2/2025 at 12:43 PM, Teemu said: It is now at 45k+. I want one too, so backed it 🙂 I'm sorry to hear that.
Teemu Posted May 4 Posted May 4 Well, I admit I am no lawyer, but, looking at the screenshot Katrinka posted earlier, I think that there is something like an implicit consent from Chesca's side, in the last line. As long as she is credited and her royalties set aside for her to claim, I do not see something really bad. 8 hours ago, katrinka said:
DanielJUK Posted May 4 Posted May 4 This is a discussion which really has strong opinions and a few things to remind everyone of.... - We don't allow links to other currently active tarot communities from our forum. I have removed the numerously posted reddit links from posts - It's not fair to make personal comments about the people involved with the reprint. Some comments have been removed. We can make our points and arguments based on what we know and rise above that. Let's not make it personal because it loses the argument about the rights and wrongs of the reprint. Let's keep this discussion respectful between us and for the others involved and tread carefully with any claims without evidence. Thank you 🙂
gregory Posted May 4 Posted May 4 1 hour ago, Teemu said: Well, I admit I am no lawyer, but, looking at the screenshot Katrinka posted earlier, I think that there is something like an implicit consent from Chesca's side, in the last line. As long as she is credited and her royalties set aside for her to claim, I do not see something really bad. She refers to showing her work on another site. Not to reprinting it. Her brother made it very clear she was not OK with it - there is a thread referencing this on another forum. It was also shown on a facebook page set up supporting her rights, which Mark forced FB to remove for spurious reasons, saying it was in breach of his copyright. Given that it didn't actually show any of her work without credit, and that it is not in his copyright that was - odd and rather unpleasant..
katrinka Posted May 4 Posted May 4 1 hour ago, Teemu said: Well, I admit I am no lawyer gregory is correct. I'm not a lawyer either, but you don't have to be one to understand that "If you for any reason display my work on another site, please credit me. I would do the same for you" is NOT "implicit consent" to violate Chesca's copyright and sell her art. We display her work on this site all the time, Look at this thread, full of Greenwood images. That's what Chesca's referring to: forums, blogs, facebook posts, that kind of thing. She never gave Mark Ryan permission to profit off her copyrighted work. 1 hour ago, Teemu said: As long as she is credited and her royalties set aside for her to claim, I do not see something really bad. A royalty payment is a payment made by one party to another that owns a particular asset, for the right to ongoing use of that asset. There's a contract that Chesca would have to sign. It's not something that's applicable to indie decks, anyway. Just records, movies, things like that. The thing is, Mark Ryan has not been in contact with Chesca Potter at all. If he had, you can bet he'd be shouting it from the rooftops. There was no permission to reprint the Greenwood. There were no contracts signed. Nothing.
gregory Posted May 4 Posted May 4 I don't think crowdfunded decks generate royalties actually. It's just lots and lots of money for Mark.
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