Possible Greenwood reprint.....

[gregory]

Well, whatever. People are going to support it, even though we KNOW Mark knows he has no right to reprint and is on record as admitting this - he is doing it JUST to get money for himself. And we know that Chesca's brother, at the very least, said it wasn't OK last time he tried to pull this one. People want it so much they are prepared to support what is in effect a pirated deck, out there in the most open of places. And it's so easy to print your own from the images that are on line WITH Chesca's permission (she admitted at the time she had no copyright over the titles on the cards, so left them off.)

 

You can tell why Mark insisted that fan page on FB was removed - Chesca's brother was right there saying she was with him and didn't want this to happen. It absolutely stinks.

[Teemu]

Hi guys. I found a way to print the free graphics on cards only for personal use - that is enough for me. And it is much cheaper than 70 pounds. So I have withdrawn from the kickstarter project.

 

 

[gregory]

Good for you. 

[Rodney]

I see a comment from a Superbacker got removed. Wonder if that happened because the comment shed light on things the campaign starter would rather remain in the dark? 

[gregory]

Well it wasn't me (I am one) - I THINK you can't comment if you aren't a backer of the project.

[katrinka]

I finally heard something back.



I had to report it as plagiarized since I do not own the copyright. But it's common knowledge in the Tarot community that Mark Ryan has no right to reprint the deck without the artist's permission and I hope they're getting LOTS of reports.

[JoyousGirl]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

no right to reprint the deck

 

I've seen a few unopened (?) decks on E-bay recently going for about $800. I wondered whether they were reprints and he's selling them for top dollar because he's aware of people here kicking up a stink?

[Rodney]

It jumps right out at me that all of the comments from "Martin Hughes" are signed Mark or Mark Ryan. And that apparently isn't raising any red flags for anyone who has supported this campaign...

[Raggydoll]

37 minutes ago, Rodney said:

It jumps right out at me that all of the comments from "Martin Hughes" are signed Mark or Mark Ryan. And that apparently isn't raising any red flags for anyone who has supported this campaign...

To quote my kids: ”That sounds sus!” 😁

 

 

[Rose Lalonde]

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

I had to report it as plagiarized

That's what I did earlier, linking to an interview where even he states she owns the rights to the art. 

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, Rose Lalonde said:

That's what I did earlier, linking to an interview where even he states she owns the rights to the art. 

The one where he's talking about having to get a new artist? (That ended up being the Wildwood.) I sent that link too! Bravo. The more reports, the better.

It's funny how Mark Ryan never produced anything that wasn't a Greenwood knockoff with a hired artist (since Ryan can't draw or paint), or a flat-out illegal Greenwood reprint. At least I've never heard of him creating any other decks. Or actually creating ANY deck, for that matter.

John Matthews' name keeps coming up. I think he might be in this up to his eyeballs, and that's sad. I've always gotten along with Caitlin.

Edited May 12, 2025 by katrinka

[DanielJUK]

6 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

 

I've seen a few unopened (?) decks on E-bay recently going for about $800. I wondered whether they were reprints and he's selling them for top dollar because he's aware of people here kicking up a stink?

 

They also could very likely be pirated. There is few unopened versions around now and are super rare. I really researched into the deck sales and followed all selling places closely about 4 years ago and at the time, unopened prices started at $4000 and a good quality used set was from $1000, other prices were like from $400. I was very lucky to pick up one on Abebooks for a good price at the time but I had been searching for like ten years 🙏

 

I don't think they will start slashing the resale prices until the actual crowdfunder starts flooding the market (if it gets to that stage). It was interesting what happened when the Caroline Smith / John Astrop decks were reprinted a year or two ago, some of them were reaching $800 / $900 online and overnight were suddenly $20 used first edition! 

 

I would be careful right now with very cheap versions of this deck being sold, especially listed as unopened. It's likely to be printed from the website.

[Laura Borealis]

7 hours ago, Rodney said:

It jumps right out at me that all of the comments from "Martin Hughes" are signed Mark or Mark Ryan. And that apparently isn't raising any red flags for anyone who has supported this campaign...

 

It occurred to me that Mark Ryan may be his stage name (since he's an actor, he was in Robin of Sherwood, Black Sails, etc.) Martin Hughes could be his legal name. I couldn't confirm it with a simple search, though.

[ilweran]

I had a response telling me I needed to inform the copyright holder or their representative.

 

I've talked explaining the situation again - I did explain in my initial contact.

[FindYourSovereignty]

Reporting the project for plagerism does seem to fit the issue as a copy of another product - with the link to the interview showing that he is aware the art rights are Chesca's. I do think the number of people reporting will be important as this has a huge dollar attached to it for KS. If they ignore the content provided in the interview where MR himself says the art rights are Chesca's and that is why he created the Wildwood deck, then it will be KS going against their own rules.

 

IMO, The real argument cannot be on her behalf as she isn't stepping in and actually goes beyond MR oe even The Greenwood Tarot. It needs to be on plagerism of her art at large because, at least I am thinking, if they let this slide for him, why couldn't ANYONE create a campaign with those images? Or any other images that an artist doesn't come forward and claim their rights to.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2025 by FindYourSovereignty

[JoyousGirl]

2 hours ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

she isn't stepping in

This is the issue - it would take legal intervention to do anything with regard to copyright issues. That requires money and involves stress and hassle. It's also living in the past. 

 

Perhaps with Wildwood and other knock-offs this is karma coming after being given three chances to learn from his mistakes and saying "you know better, and yet...".  

 

It's likely Chesca is leaving karma to work its magic or just knows human behaviours well and wants to rise above them.  Others, after all, are unowned or integrated aspects of our self.  Intervening (enacting revenge etc) risks injury to ourselves, or those we love as extensions of ourselves. Intervening is telling "God" or whatever you call the cycling of energy, how to do things and suggests we know better. It's a control 'issue'. "How dare they do that to ME!" as Myss has said. 

 

2 hours ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

actually goes beyond MR oe even The Greenwood Tarot.

 

Yes, this is what happens in a global marketplace. Easy money to be made by counterfeiters who take advantage.  As I was saying about the current $800 Greenwood decks floating around on E-bay, and Daniel confirms.

 

10 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

They also could very likely be pirated. There is few unopened versions around now and are super rare. ...

It was interesting what happened when the Caroline Smith / John Astrop decks were reprinted a year or two ago, some of them were reaching $800 / $900 online and overnight were suddenly $20 used first edition! 

 

The question could then be asked - if you're desperate for the deck, and don't want to print one, would you wait for MR's deck to come out and get a $20 pirated version or one of his?  😎  

 

5 hours ago, ilweran said:

a response telling me I needed to inform the copyright holder or their representative.

 

Yes, they don't have the staff resources to respond let alone do much else. Can they legally intervene? Probably not.  All they could do is boot the seller who goes elsewhere. Then that's risk to reputation which is a no-no if business isn't doing so good.

Edited May 12, 2025 by JoyousGirl

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, FindYourSovereignty said:

if they let this slide for him, why couldn't ANYONE create a campaign with those images? Or any other images that an artist doesn't come forward and claim their rights to.

Precisely. If KS was OK with that, they'd be full to bursting with pirate decks. It's hard to prosecute sites in China, or behemoths like amazon that sometimes get pirated decks mixed in with the legitimate ones. But Kickstarter is in Brooklyn and they're just not that big.

 

2 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

This is the issue - it would take legal intervention to do anything with regard to copyright issues. That requires money and involves stress and hassle. It's also living in the past. 

I doubt that Kickstarter wants to leave themselves open to legal action. They have no guarantees that Chesca or her brother won't rise up and whallop them with a big fat court case. Hence the rules.

And it's not "living in the past." There's scads of copyright infringement cases going on at any given moment.
 

2 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

It's likely Chesca is leaving karma to work its magic

Can I take a moment to explain something? It's not just you doing this, I see it everywhere.

Karma is NOT some recording angel that keeps track of good and bad deeds so people can be rewarded or punished. It's cause and effect. A very simple explanation would be that if someone mistreats their cat, the cat will leave. That's not punishment - the jerk probably didn't like the cat to begin with, they won't miss it.

Of course it's a lot more complex than that. And there's a moral angle, yes - it's said to affect rebirth. Where you will go after death is believed to determined by your own karmic actions, not only of this life but also of your previous lives. Since all of us have enormous collections of karma accumulated over many past lives, we all have karmic potentials to take rebirth in the lower realms of existence as well as in the more fortunate realms. The guy who was a jerk to his cat has precisely zero chance of automatically being reborn as a mouse and tortured by a cat because he used to kick his.

I have a theory that when people leave Christianity, they have gaps they try to fill in and one of those gaps is the need for bad people to be punished without them having to lift a finger. But things rarely work that way. If someone is kicking their cat we need to get them charged with animal cruelty and get the cat taken away.

It's on us.
 

2 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

Easy money to be made by counterfeiters who take advantage.  As I was saying about the current $800 Greenwood decks floating around on E-bay, and Daniel confirms.

There's a big difference between counterfeiting and selling out of print decks for whatever people are willing to pay.  One is morally reprehensible and criminal. The other isn't much different from having a little antique shop.

 

2 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

All they could do is boot the seller who goes elsewhere.

That's all we're asking. And while he may go elsewhere, he'd owe almost $100,000 in pledges that people would want refunded.
It's extremely doubtful that he'd pay them back, of course. But his reputation would be in the toilet a lot worse than it is now.
And Kickstarter couldn't be held responsible since it's prominently noted on their site that "Rewards aren't guaranteed."
That doesn't bode well for Mark's little pirate deck business. Best for everyone to just download MiShell's PDF.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2025 by katrinka

[FindYourSovereignty]

I followed up my report with an email to support and lots of additional information. 

 

Does anyone have available the small size pdf? That link on mi-shell's page goes to the large size one. Thank you.

[JoyousGirl]

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

9 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

This is the issue - it would take legal intervention to do anything with regard to copyright issues. That requires money and involves stress and hassle. It's also living in the past. 

I doubt that Kickstarter wants to leave themselves open to legal action. They have no guarantees that Chesca or her brother won't rise up and whallop them with a big fat court case. Hence the rules.

And it's not "living in the past." There's scads of copyright infringement cases going on at any given moment.

 

You appear to have misinterpreted what I've said, so let me clarify.

 

I meant that for Chesca, intervening would be a hassle and create stress and require money. And yes, it is living in the past, cycling that energy and having to deal with him (his ego? him as a whole) rather than disconnecting from the situation and him altogether. She's rising above, she has disengaged.  Let each day be new. The situation will resolve itself. 

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

Can I take a moment to explain something? It's not just you doing this, I see it everywhere.

Karma is NOT some recording angel that keeps track of good and bad deeds so people can be rewarded or punished. It's cause and effect.  ...
I have a theory ...

It's on us.

 

I agree that it is on us to take responsibility for our behaviours.  However, I believe that intentions behind things are relevant too - there is an energy circulating, it either remains as it is or transforms or returns to its origins or ?  It isn't a clear cut cause and effect. But I can't assert that I know how it is for sure. And I'm not sure you can either. But thanks for your perspective. 

 

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

There's a big difference between counterfeiting and selling out of print decks for whatever people are willing to pay.  One is morally reprehensible and criminal. The other isn't much different from having a little antique shop.

 

What I was getting at is that if he's had those decks printed already, he may be trying to pass them off as original decks because he needs to recover his money if he can't sell them otherwise. Some might suggest that charging more than one paid for an item (taking inflation and postage into account etc) is morally reprehensible. Generally, if we're the ones doing it, it's acceptable. We justify our own behaviours. Which is what we're seeing in this debacle. Then, desperation enters and play a part too. Too many variables to consider if a thing is morally reprehensible. People stealing loaves of bread to feed their starving family - is that morally reprehensible? It's on us, is it? Anyway, that's just thinking reflectively aloud, as I do.

 

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

All they could do is boot the seller who goes elsewhere.

That's all we're asking. And while he may go elsewhere, he'd owe almost $100,000 in pledges that people would want refunded.
It's extremely doubtful that he'd pay them back, of course. But his reputation would be in the toilet a lot worse than it is now.
And Kickstarter couldn't be held responsible since it's prominently noted on their site that "Rewards aren't guaranteed."

 

I mentioned if Kickstarter's business wasn't doing so good. What's $100,000 pledges worth to them?  Kickstarter's disclaimer is to cover them from this sort of thing. It's also why they ask people to go to the copyright holder. All care, no responsibility. 

 

 

 

[gregory]

10 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

The question could then be asked - if you're desperate for the deck, and don't want to print one, would you wait for MR's deck to come out and get a $20 pirated version or one of his?  😎  

 

 

If his goes ahead, and if I didn't already own an original - I would buy the pirated one just to annoy him. I know he'd never know but it would give me that smidgen of satisfaction....

 

Small size pdf - I have one somewhere....

[ilweran]

42 minutes ago, JoyousGirl said:

Kickstarter's disclaimer is to cover them from this sort of thing. It's also why they ask people to go to the copyright holder. All care, no responsibility. 

 

It's pretty standard in all online businesses, and possibly offline as well - I don't know. I can see the logic in it.

[FindYourSovereignty]

59 minutes ago, gregory said:

Small size pdf - I have one somewhere....

 

🤞😊

[gregory]

Hm. I would have called it small - 6 cards to a page.... Do you need it smaller - can do....!

[FindYourSovereignty]

24 minutes ago, gregory said:

Hm. I would have called it small - 6 cards to a page.... Do you need it smaller - can do....!

 

Good point! The file name says it is the large one. Maybe this one is too small and I need the large one... 🤔

[Laura Borealis]

5 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

 

You appear to have misinterpreted what I've said, so let me clarify.

 

I meant that for Chesca, intervening would be a hassle and create stress and require money. And yes, it is living in the past, cycling that energy and having to deal with him (his ego? him as a whole) rather than disconnecting from the situation and him altogether. She's rising above, she has disengaged.  Let each day be new. The situation will resolve itself.

 

We don't know how Chesca feels about it. She disappeared years ago, and anything we think we know about her since then is just speculation. Copyright law protects her art regardless. I think that's what we need to focus on. Not what she would want (we don't know what she would want!), but what the law can do about those trying to use her work for their personal gain.