Philosophize with Aldor44 and Grandma !!!***NEW TOPIC CHECK IT OUT***!!!

[Grandma]

The best way to explain what I have in mind here is to insert part of a PM I sent to Aldor44 earlier today:

 

"Your thread at https://www.thetarotforum.com/tarot-for-yourself/looking-for-fresh-perspective/ has raised many astonished questions and ideas for me, not only about your insightfully unusual interpretations of some of the cards, but about my own reading style and ability and indeed about Tarot itself.

 

"To raise these concerns in your thread would be to hijack the thread to my own discussion and for my own needs.  Instead, I would like to use it as a springboard for a thread of my own.  I would like to quote you extensively and from the quotes develop lines of discussion.

 

"It would be a sort of collaboration and would be titled that way - maybe Grandma and Aldor44 Philosophize or something like that."

 

Aldor44 is enthusiastically and immediately on board, as he let me know in PM.

 

If you are interested, grab your toga, or your tweed jacket and cigar, or your black beret and marijuana cigarette, depending on what era philosopher you see your self as, and prepare to join in.

 

You might have to wait a few days, though.  It can take me a while to get started.  So check back in new messages frequently, or even better, check in here now to indicate your interest.  That will serve two purposes: the thread will pop up when you click on the link to replies to your posts, and it will give me incentive to continue!   

[Wanderer]

Intriguing... you may consider me to be watching very carefully.  8)

[Jewel]

This thread sounds quite fascinating ... I am intrigued.

[Saturn Celeste]

Color me intrigued!  :))

[Grandma]

Hey friends -

 

I'll see your two intrigued and one watching you carefully, and raise you one thrilled, one relieved, one who must now follow through on her word!

[Arabella]

I'm in too, Grandma. Just my cup of tea. Off to grab my kaftan and shisha pipe and settle in for some "far out" wisdom.  ;D

[Avalon]

Grandma...I thought you were just asking for directions to San Jose, now I have to drive down to meet up with you too?  ???

Fine  ::)  ((

[Grandma]

I'll be there with bells on, Avalon!

[Saturn Celeste]

Sooo are Shisha pipes required?  O:-)

[Arabella]

I think so, and paisley cushions and (hopefully for me at least) dirty feet  :D ;D ;D

[Saturn Celeste]

I think so, and paisley cushions and (hopefully for me at least) dirty feet  :D ;D ;D

Well I actually have a couple paisley pillows and my pipe is a floor model so there's plenty of room to go around for all of us.  Ummm, there's a problem though, I don't smoke Shisha in my pipe.  >:D

[Grandma]

"Tell 'em a hookah-smoking caterpillar has given you the call'

 

 

 

[Cobweb]

It all sounds very intriguing- looking forward to seeing what develops.  (Says Cobweb, while she’s trying to look intellectual!  ;D)

[Saturn Celeste]

My hookah is fired up and ready!

 

Since this is in the tarot technique, we do need to philosophize about tarot technique.  I have recently come across a thread that surprised me how readers can get into locked ideas about cards without even knowing the actual given meaning of the cards.  Tarot cards aren't a philosophy.  They began as a game sailors played and as they sailed from country to country, the cards developed.  Here's a little history, it's a copy and paste job with a link to the original page.

________________________________

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarot

 

History

Playing cards first entered Europe in the late 14th century, most likely from Mamluk Egypt, with suits of Batons or Polo sticks (commonly known as Wands by those practicing occult or divinatory tarot), Coins (commonly known as disks, or pentacles in occult or divinatory tarot), Swords, and Cups. These suits were very similar to modern tarot divination decks and are still used in traditional Italian, Spanish and Portuguese playing card decks. 

The first documented tarot packs were recorded between 1440 and 1450 in Milan, Ferrara, Florence and Bologna when additional trump cards with allegorical illustrations were added to the common four-suit pack. These new decks were called carte da trionfi, triumph cards, and the additional cards known simply as trionfi, which became "trumps" in English. The earliest documentation of trionfi is found in a written statement in the court records of Florence, in 1440, regarding the transfer of two decks to Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta.  The oldest surviving tarot cards are the 15 or so Visconti-Sforza tarot decks painted in the mid-15th century for the rulers of the Duchy of Milan.  A lost tarot-like pack was commissioned by Duke Filippo Maria Visconti and described by Martiano da Tortona probably between 1418 and 1425, since the painter he mentions, Michelino da Besozzo, returned to Milan in 1418, while Martiano himself died in 1425. He described a 60-card deck with 16 cards having images of the Greek gods and suits depicting four kinds of birds. The 16 cards were regarded as "trumps" since in 1449 Jacopo Antonio Marcello recalled that the now deceased duke had invented a novum quoddam et exquisitum triumphorum genus, or "a new and exquisite kind of triumphs".  Other early decks that also showcased classical motifs include the Sola-Busca and Boiardo-Viti decks of the 1490s.  In Florence, an expanded deck called Minchiate was used. This deck of 97 cards includes astrological symbols and the four elements, as well as traditional tarot motifs.  Although a Dominican preacher inveighed against the evil inherent in cards (chiefly owing to their use in gambling) in a sermon in the 15th century, no routine condemnations of tarot were found during its early history.  Because the earliest tarot cards were hand-painted, the number of the decks produced is thought to have been small. It was only after the invention of the printing press that mass production of cards became possible. The expansion of tarot outside of Italy, first to France and Switzerland, occurred during the Italian Wars. The most important tarot pattern used in these two countries was the Tarot of Marseilles of Milanese origin.

 

Esoteric tarot

The earliest evidence of a tarot deck used for cartomancy comes from an anonymous manuscript from around 1750 which documents rudimentary divinatory meanings for the cards of the Tarocco Bolognese.  The popularization of esoteric tarot started with Antoine Court and Jean-Baptiste Alliette (Etteilla) in Paris during the 1780s, using the Tarot of Marseilles.  After French tarot players abandoned the Marseilles tarot in favor of the Tarot Nouveau around 1900, the Marseilles pattern is now used mostly by cartomancers.

 

Occult Tarot

Etteilla was the first to issue a tarot deck specifically designed for occult purposes around 1789. In keeping with the misplaced belief that such cards were derived from the Book of Thoth, Etteilla's tarot contained themes related to ancient Egypt.  The 78-card tarot deck used by esotericists has two distinct parts:

1. The Major Arcana (greater secrets), or trump cards, consists of 22 cards without suits: The Magician, The High Priestess, The Empress, The Emperor, The Hierophant, The Lovers, The Chariot, Strength, The Hermit, Wheel of Fortune, Justice, The Hanged Man, Death, Temperance, The Devil, The Tower, The Star, The Moon, The Sun, Judgement, The World, and The Fool. Cards from The Magician to The World are numbered in Roman numerals from I to XXI, while The Fool is the only unnumbered card, sometimes placed at the beginning of the deck as 0, or at the end as XXII.

2. The Minor Arcana (lesser secrets) consists of 56 cards, divided into four suits of 14 cards each; ten numbered cards and four court cards. The court cards are the King, Queen, Knight and Page/Jack, in each of the four tarot suits. The traditional Italian tarot suits are swords, batons, coins and cups; in modern occult tarot decks, however, the batons suit is often called wands, rods or staves, while the coins suit is often called pentacles or disks.

 

The terms "major arcana" and "minor arcana" were first used by Jean-Baptiste Pitois (also known as Paul Christian) and are never used in relation to Tarot card games. Some decks exist primarily as artwork; and such art decks sometimes contain only the 22 major arcana.  The three most common decks used in esoteric tarot are the Tarot of Marseilles, the Rider-Waite tarot deck, and the Thoth tarot deck.

________________________________

 

So what does this all mean?  It means that tarot cards as we know them has an origin, and they had a purpose.  In the beginning they were simply used in card games played among sailors and wealthy Italian and later French families.  It wasn't until 1789 that Etteilla issued the tarot deck as we know them today with the intent purpose of using the cards in divination.  Tarot cards are like an electrical socket.  The cards contain harnessed energy that is available for use.  When you plug a cord into the socket, the light turns on.  When you pick up your cards and use them, the light shines for the reader.

 

My philosophy about tarot cards is they have a past, they have a purpose and they have remained through the ages.  There have been books written and videos made to discuss each and every card and their meanings.  While intuitive reading is fine, there is more to tarot than analyzing images.  Images change and so do the meaning of the cards in that respect.  But this rich history of the tarot needs to be looked at and taken into consideration when learning the cards.  They are not some esoteric manna from heaven, they are tangible with a history and meanings and we as keepers of the cards do them justice to know and understand their meanings.

 

[Guest Freeli]

Bookmarked this thread  :) I am intrigued too!

[Saturn Celeste]

BTW, if there are no tarot techniques presented on this thread I'll need to move it to the chatter section. ;)

[Grandma]

BTW, if there are no tarot techniques presented on this thread I'll need to move it to the chatter section. ;)

 

There will definitely be tarot techniques presented, or at least my philosophical questions influence the way I read the tarot, so to me that qualifies as discussion of tarot techniques.

 

I should have the first question and opening discussion up by tomorrow.  Writing takes me a lot of time and consumes a lot of energy, so I wanted to see if there was interest before I started.  Could you wait until you see what I have in mind before deciding whether to move it?  After you read it, of course it is your job do what you think is appropriate.

 

And thank you for the information in your second to last post.  I just skimmed it for now and it looks so interesting.  I will read it carefully as soon as I can.

[Saturn Celeste]

 

I should have the first question and opening discussion up by tomorrow.  Writing takes me a lot of time and consumes a lot of energy, so I wanted to see if there was interest before I started.  Could you wait until you see what I have in mind before deciding whether to move it?  After you read it, of course it is your job do what you think is appropriate.

I was just letting you know in passing.  I think this thread is a good idea, it's why I am participating on it!  And we need more substantive threads, especially in this section so you go girl!  <3 Take your time, Grandma. ;)

[Grandma]

And back again - this quote from Saturn Celeste (I got a little confused - I think these are your own words?) is a perfect example of the type of discussion I have in mind. 

 

"Tarot cards are like an electrical socket.  The cards contain harnessed energy that is available for use.  When you plug a cord into the socket, the light turns on.  When you pick up your cards and use them, the light shines for the reader.

 

"My philosophy about tarot cards is they have a past, they have a  purpose and they have remained through the ages.  There have been books written and videos made to discuss each and every card and their meanings.  While intuitive reading is fine, there is more to tarot than analyzing images.  Images change and so do the meaning of the cards in that respect.  But this rich history of the tarot needs to be looked at and taken into consideration when learning the cards.  They are not some esoteric manna from heaven, they are tangible with a history and meanings and we as keepers of the cards do them justice to know and understand their meanings."

 

The question I will probably start with is inspired by an experience I had while looking at a reading Aldor44 had done.  Although I was impressed by his insights and interpretations, I was getting something completely different from the cards and realized that I was reading them with Grandpa in mind, and Aldor44 was obviously not reading about Grandpa.

 

I'd like to add a little more detail before this goes into open discussion - you may be familiar with how I love detail - so if people are willing to humor me and wait another day I will appreciate it!

[Saturn Celeste]

I'd like to add a little more detail before this goes into open discussion - you may be familiar with how I love detail - so if people are willing to humor me and wait another day I will appreciate it!

Absolutely, hey Grandma, what sign are you?

[Grandma]

Pisces.  I was born at 2:10 pm, Thursday March 11, 1948, at 42.115978 degrees latitude and -72.593017 degrees longitude.  Ha ha, bet that's more info than you anticipated...

 

Wait - what?? Why do you ask?  (Now Grandma joins the list of people who are intrigued.)

[TheFeeLion]

... if Tarot started off as a game that sailors played then my guess is that the divinatory aspect would have developed from the superstitious nature of sailors. I’m guessing they would have seen the repetition of a certain card as an omen (whether of good luck or bad). Each sailor would have had their own lucky or unlucky cards and when they got together with others would have shared what they meant to them. I think the development of cards as an oracle was something that happened over time rather than one person deciding “this is how the cards will be read as a divinatory tool!”

[Arabella]

Those sailors were and are a superstitious bunch, I have a family full of them.

Although we are waiting for Grandma to start her conversation, I thought I'd butt in to comment on Saturn's post.

I totally agree that the history and evolution of the cards and their images have to play a part. Having a background knowledge, even a small one, of the meanings and historical symbols, of the cards is valuable if not crucial. As a reader I then take that and apply it using my intuition, my take on that meaning, to form the story. If I had no idea of the card it would be no different than taking any image that came before me and make an intuitive reading from it.

Oooo, I'm going to do that. My Facebook news feed, I'm going to read the next three photos that pop up as a spread.  :) :) :)

A :-*

[Grandma]

Those sailors were and are a superstitious bunch, I have a family full of them.

Although we are waiting for Grandma to start her conversation, I thought I'd butt in to comment on Saturn's post.

I totally agree that the history and evolution of the cards and their images have to play a part. Having a background knowledge, even a small one, of the meanings and historical symbols, of the cards is valuable if not crucial. As a reader I then take that and apply it using my intuition, my take on that meaning, to form the story. If I had no idea of the card it would be no different than taking any image that came before me and make an intuitive reading from it.

Oooo, I'm going to do that. My Facebook news feed, I'm going to read the next three photos that pop up as a spread.  :) :) :)

A :-*

 

You know what, I don't need to be the boss of this thread.  My first idea can wait.  Let's jump in here, with Arabella's ideas, above, and Saturn Celeste's, as follow:

 

"Tarot cards are like an electrical socket.  The cards contain harnessed energy that is available for use.  When you plug a cord into the socket, the light turns on.  When you pick up your cards and use them, the light shines for the reader.

 

"My philosophy about tarot cards is they have a past, they have a  purpose and they have remained through the ages.  There have been books written and videos made to discuss each and every card and their meanings.  While intuitive reading is fine, there is more to tarot than analyzing images.  Images change and so do the meaning of the cards in that respect.  But this rich history of the tarot needs to be looked at and taken into consideration when learning the cards.  They are not some esoteric manna from heaven, they are tangible with a history and meanings and we as keepers of the cards do them justice to know and understand their meanings."

 

I was actually just talking about this in PM and I think I'll copy and paste what I wrote:

 

I google meanings of cards all the time and sometimes the meanings on different sites hardly seem to be about the same card.  That's where intuition is needed, and - for me at least - a knowledge of the querent's circumstances, seem important.  I also think that just like a pianist practices scales until she knows, without having to even think about it, exactly where to place her fingers to produce a certain sound, and only then can she create the music she hears within her, we need to know meanings inside out in order to draw readings from the cards.  I will practice those scales forever and hopefully will someday approach being able to play the music in the cards.

 

and

 

that tarot is not a static art, but a dynamic one.  Shouldn't meanings evolve?  Aldor44 came up with something about the six of wands that  as far as I know, completely new -

 

"now this interpretation might be weird- but that was what I got. To me he is symbolized here not by the rider but by the horse ( to me the horse appeared sad - while everyone else are happy) He is being led while wanting to lead. he does all the hard work while the man on top gets all the praise and rewards. He wants to be the one on top and get recognition and rewards for everything he does- however, while having the passion and inner strength and desire- the understanding or maybe the tools of how to get there are missing - the horse despite being much more powerful than his rider- doesn't know how to turn the tables and become the leading one..."

 

This blew me away.  Should it be disregarded because it's not on labyrinthos or biddy?  Oh my goodness I love this sort of discussion.

 

 

I know just what people mean about reading tarot being more than just memorizing meanings.  I've written in two different threads this week that if it were just memorization, anyone could do it.  I've used the analogy in both places that just applying memorized meanings to the cards is like building a basic piece of furniture like a bookcase from a list of instructions, but that real reading is like building an original unique beautiful piece of furniture from raw materials, hard work, inspiration and artistry.

 

But one needs how to use the tools, how different wood behaves, and so on.  It's craft as well as art.

 

So I guess the first topic is how we balance using traditional meanings and intuitive ones in our readings.  I think there was a similar thread about this recently and I don't want to be redundant, but I believe this topic is important enough to be addressed by a group of philosophers!

 

[Arabella]

Just a minute - I'm tuning the shisha pipe  :)

I'm totally hearing you Grandma, I read Aldor's take on that card and thought, yes good call.

I think you said it perfectly, learning the scales of the piano is us learning meanings and traditions of the cards. As a pianist then goes on, not just to play music someone else wrote, they also have skills and knowledge to compose their own music and have it sound cohesive and melodic.

One of the first things I look for when I turn a card is who or what in this card is me or the sitter. My intuition has on occasion told me that I was the woman in the foreground in the Judgement card and the horse in the Sun card. Think of the 6 Pentacles. Which person in this image is you? (if reading for yourself). You know the meaning of the card but are you the giver or the receiver. It will make a difference to the reading, surely.

The Moon is all about things dark and hidden and I use that type of meaning mostly, but in our family we have many of us scattered around the world and we have always said "look to the moon, it's the same in both hemispheres, we connect by seeing the moon" (btw my son is a astrophysicist and always looking at the night sky) so in some readings for me the Moon card is a hidden connection or a common dark thread for the sitter.

So yes, meanings evolve for us as we work with the cards and we take what we can from Biddy and any other source but and the end of it all, it's you at that time, at that place, with that question. We have to start somewhere and for me that somewhere is the scales of the piano, the traditional, historical meanings that I then throw my best intuition at.