Philosophize with Aldor44 and Grandma !!!***NEW TOPIC CHECK IT OUT***!!!

[Grandma]

You are right. I guess I wasn’t actually counting those as real readers. But I agree that because they call themselves readers I should have been more specific in my wording. So I’m not gonna debate you on this one, sorry to disappoint you  :))

 

Oh, dear Raggydoll, I am very far from disappointed!

 

I don’t mean debate as in people get upset and pound their shoes on the table.  I mean debate as in a discussion about a subject on which people have different views.  Your next follow-up post is just the kind of debate I was hoping for.  We challenge each other to think in new directions. 

I have so much to say in response, but I’ll let someone else jump in for now.  If I don’t do some grocery shopping and clean my house at least a little, it will not be pretty around here.

 

 

[Raggydoll]

You are right. I guess I wasn’t actually counting those as real readers. But I agree that because they call themselves readers I should have been more specific in my wording. So I’m not gonna debate you on this one, sorry to disappoint you  :))

 

Oh, dear Raggydoll, I am very far from disappointed!

 

I don’t mean debate as in people get upset and pound their shoes on the table.  I mean debate as in a discussion about a subject on which people have different views.  Your next follow-up post is just the kind of debate I was hoping for.  We challenge each other to think in new directions. 

I have so much to say in response, but I’ll let someone else jump in for now.  If I don’t do some grocery shopping and clean my house at least a little, it will not be pretty around here.

 

I know that was what you meant. If I really though there would be a debate then, truthfully, I would have refrained from posting because I have so much stuff going on in my life right now (stressful things) that I am feeling a bit vulnerable and not really up to defending myself. I’m sure you understand what I’m trying to say, I know you are the kind of person that always goes the extra mile in trying to understand and embrace people for who they are. I really appreciate that about you!

[Grandma]

I know that was what you meant. If I really though there would be a debate then, truthfully, I would have refrained from posting because I have so much stuff going on in my life right now (stressful things) that I am feeling a bit vulnerable and not really up to defending myself. I’m sure you understand what I’m trying to say, I know you are the kind of person that always goes the extra mile in trying to understand and embrace people for who they are. I really appreciate that about you!

 

Wow.  Thank you.  I'm very lonely in real life and I don't get much positive feedback, so that means more than I can say.  I consider you among the friends I have made here, Raggydoll.

 

I'm sorry that your life is stressful.  Feeling vulnerable is pretty much my baseline, so the last thing I want is for people to be made to feel that they need to defend themselves here. 

 

Positing different opinions and intellectually defending them while being excited to learn from other points of view can be stimulating, not only intellectually but emotionally, for me.  You raised such good points.  I'll be thinking about them long and hard.

 

If the discussion is rewarding, people will stick around.  And if this thread is not someone's cup of tea, well, it's a big forum with room for everyone.

 

[Raggydoll]

I know that was what you meant. If I really though there would be a debate then, truthfully, I would have refrained from posting because I have so much stuff going on in my life right now (stressful things) that I am feeling a bit vulnerable and not really up to defending myself. I’m sure you understand what I’m trying to say, I know you are the kind of person that always goes the extra mile in trying to understand and embrace people for who they are. I really appreciate that about you!

 

Wow.  Thank you.  I'm very lonely in real life and I don't get much positive feedback, so that means more than I can say.  I consider you among the friends I have made here, Raggydoll.

 

I'm sorry that your life is stressful.  Feeling vulnerable is pretty much my baseline, so the last thing I want is for people to be made to feel that they need to defend themselves here. 

 

Positing different opinions and intellectually defending them while being excited to learn from other points of view can be stimulating, not only intellectually but emotionally, for me.  You raised such good points.  I'll be thinking about them long and hard.

 

If the discussion is rewarding, people will stick around.  And if this thread is not someone's cup of tea, well, it's a big forum with room for everyone.

 

((

[Thoughtful]

As living entities made up of body, mind and spirit, we

read the cards by using the body to shuffle the cards, the mind to formulate the reading and the spiritual higher self to tap into ancient knowledge. Very simplistic l know.  If one believes in past lives then it makes sense that we all have a reservoir of vast knowledge that can be tapped into.

 

It has been said that thoughts are living things, so just imagine all those hundreds of years of thoughts and ideas floating around the universe.  Perhaps you have an 'Aha' moment, where did that come from you ask, past personal knowledge? or one of Einstein's ideas?  ;D

 

l am not an intellectual or academic, more of a spiritual thinker,  so forgive my naivety.  Is all this discussion actually addressing the original question of  "how do you balance tradition and intuition? 

Maybe it is,  in a deep and profound way that my consciousness is just beginning to grasp, but not yet able to articulate.

 

If intuition equates to spiritual senses,  then l can see our traditional ways of being and our spiritual understanding needing that balance.  All l can offer here is what l said in a previous post,  let thoughts and feelings flow in readings  and they will surely find their own balance.

 

But if the reader is not properly attuned in mind, body, and spirit before a reading,  there could be an imbalance occurring that could lead to a bad reading and frustration.  But who knows  :)

 

[Ratty]

 

I don’t mean debate as in people get upset and pound their shoes on the table.  I mean debate as in a discussion about a subject on which people have different views.

 

It's worth remembering that sometimes people who appear to get upset, aren't really. I'm minded of the famous shoe-pounding incident: the one where Nikita Khrushchev banged his shoe on the podium of the United Nations to show his anger.

 

Except everyone agrees he didn't take his shoe off to bang it on the podium. He brought the shoe with him to the rostrum when called on a point of order, and there wasn't enough space for him to have taken it off where he'd been sitting. He was too portly. Either he'd taken his shoes off before he sat down (as his granddaughter tells it), or as many alleged, he brought an extra shoe with him in case he needed to get "angry" enough to bang it on the podium at some time that session.

 

Nobody knows the truth (the much reprinted photo is a fake). But the tactic was incredibly effective in that it drowned out the debate, effectively silencing the protest of the speaker against Soviet repression. What was supposed to be just a point of order wrecked the speech.

 

Unfortunately, upstaging people to drown out their point of view is a common political tactic. Anger has little to do with it.

 

Now my apologies to Thoughtful as I haven't addressed the original point either. Sorry.

[Raggydoll]

Like Ratty, I also apologize for not sticking to the topic!

[Thoughtful]

l need no apologies at all Ratty and Raggydoll  <3

 

l am just waiting to see how this thread progresses in relation to the main question.

 

But it has all been interesting to read nevertheless.

[Raggydoll]

l need no apologies at all Ratty and Raggydoll  <3

 

l am just waiting to see how this thread progresses in relation to the main question.

 

But it has all been interesting to read nevertheless.

 

Yes it has been very interesting  <3

[Grandma]

But in this type of philosophizing, like in any good conversation, the topic evolves as new ideas lead to new lines of thought and inquiry which lead to new ideas.  Even if we resolved to stick to one point at a time, we could probably never exhaustively explore that one point, so maybe we should just let ourselves go with the flow!

 

The "original point" is a point of origin.  We never remain for long at the point of origin in any journey.  It wouldn't be a journey without movement.  One of the things about this journey, this thread, is that we don't have a pre-planned route.  If we spot something off the path that interests us, we can forge a new path in that direction.

 

In fact, I did envision this thread as looking at one topic, exhausting it, and starting over with another, but I saw almost immediately why that wasn't going to work.  This is not like a classroom with a mandatory syllabus.  It is a group of intelligent, perceptive, deep thinking philosopher friends excited and intrigued to share ideas in a free flowing exploration of something we are all passionate about! 

 

The "main question" hardly matters any more.  We are where we are and we will go where we will go!

 

And right now I will go to the grocery store.  I never got there yesterday.

[Thoughtful]

Oh l thought we needed to stick to main point and question.  This could lead us to going all over the place. It may end as more of a rambling thread, but perhaps l am getting a bit OCD  :))

 

[Grandma]

Well I guess it could, but so far it hasn't.  I vote to keep going the way we are.  So far it feels right, and we can always re-assess if it starts to feel wrong.  I'd like to keep going this way, with ideas flowing into each other.  If someone missed the opportunity to express a thought on a particular idea, they can certainly revisit the previous point.

 

Going all over the place can be rambling or it can be exploring!  I found your Reply #54 to be perfect in the organic flow of the discussion, Thoughtful[/member].

 

But maybe it already feels wrong to some people.  I'm not the boss of the thread, so my vote is just one vote!

 

 

[Saturn Celeste]

I'm not the boss of the thread, so my vote is just one vote!

Ummm, yes you are! lol I has your name on it!  And where is Aldor44[/member]? For a Pisces, going with the flow is always right.  <3

[Grandma]

I'm not the boss of the thread, so my vote is just one vote!

Ummm, yes you are! lol I has your name on it!  And where is Aldor44[/member]? For a Pisces, going with the flow is always right.  <3

 

1) Ummm, no I'm not!  It says philosophize with me, not under my direction! 

 

2) I've been wondering about Aldo44 myself.  I'll shoot him a PM.

 

3) It took this particular Pisces almost 70 years to learn to go with the flow, and even now I sometimes struggle...  Some Pisces are fish going upstream.  Pisces reversed perhaps?  Oh well, progress not perfection.

[Raggydoll]

Some Pisces are fish going upstream.  Pisces reversed perhaps?  Oh well, progress not perfection.

 

X-D

[Saturn Celeste]

Some Pisces are fish going upstream.  Pisces reversed perhaps? 

Going in circles are you Grandma?  >:D  X-D  >:D

[Grandma]

Like a hoop careening downhill, a frantic little girl with a stick trying desperately to catch up.

 

Oh my goodness, after I first posted this comment I went to re-read it and saw the little girl - my avatar and a picture of me at age four.  If the avatar and the comment were two cards, my reading would be very much influenced by personal experience.

 

I love when it all works out!

[Ratty]

So, to address the point. (Or is it a point, or even point A?)

 

I think the question of how we balance using traditional meanings and intuitive ones in our readings is answered intuitively.

 

Let me throw a third variable in the mix: experientially. Not only might I use traditional meanings and work intuitively, I will use my experience of previous intuitive readings to inform a current reading. I'll also use my non-traditional understanding of a card that has come through other means, such as its relationship with other cards or through esoterics.

 

Different people have different reading styles. My style seems to vary depending on the deck. (I only have two, but I think I read them differently.) I'll often look at the handful of meanings I'll ascribe to a card before switching on a more intuitive look. I'll often use esoterics, astrology, kabbalah, etc.

 

But what makes me pick whether to use traditional, esoteric, experiential, or full on intuition is itself intuition. Some deals just beg for astrology, some for numerology and some make me want to stare at the pictures.

[Raggydoll]

So, to address the point. (Or is it a point, or even point A?)

 

I think the question of how we balance using traditional meanings and intuitive ones in our readings is answered intuitively.

 

Let me throw a third variable in the mix: experientially. Not only might I use traditional meanings and work intuitively, I will use my experience of previous intuitive readings to inform a current reading. I'll also use my non-traditional understanding of a card that has come through other means, such as its relationship with other cards or through esoterics.

 

Different people have different reading styles. My style seems to vary depending on the deck. (I only have two, but I think I read them differently.) I'll often look at the handful of meanings I'll ascribe to a card before switching on a more intuitive look. I'll often use esoterics, astrology, kabbalah, etc.

 

But what makes me pick whether to use traditional, esoteric, experiential, or full on intuition is itself intuition. Some deals just beg for astrology, some for numerology and some make me want to stare at the pictures.

 

Yes. I 100% agree!

[TheFeeLion]

First of all I just have to say I am loving this thread!

 

As for how I balance book meanings with intuition... I try to start off with intuition and look at the images and any writing that may be on the cards to see what impressions I get first. I'll also look at how the cards are arranged to see what influences that might have on how I read them, especially what there is no set positions (I don't use set spread nearly as much as I used to). From there, particularly if I'm not getting much initially, I'll pull out the book for that deck (I still haven't memorised crd meanings) and will skim what it has to say about the card and see what my eyes are drawn to or what feels right.

 

I've found that I have quite a bit of difficulty with trusting my intuition but when I do the reading is usually spot on even if it doesn't make much sense as I'm saying it.

 

I know I shouldn't be using the book to do readings but I make sure to explain how I do things before I start so my sitter knows what to expect. I quite often find that there are threads of commonality I wouldn't see if I didn't pick up the book, like a repeated passage for example. Every repetition reinforces the message that needs to be gotten across to my sitter.

 

Sent from my LDN-LX2 using Tapatalk

 

 

[Arabella]

I quite often find that there are threads of commonality I wouldn't see if I didn't pick up the book, like a repeated passage for example. Every repetition reinforces the message that needs to be gotten across to my sitter.

 

+1 to that, FeeLion. Happened to me recently when the reading was getting a bit confusing. I grabbed the book and the three cards that where giving me trouble where a repeated message that made everything clear that I wasn't getting on intuition alone.

 

Loving the way this thread is snaking all over the place and back again. Organic and alive.

 

 

[Grandma]

 

As far as I understand Tarot - I am still at the very beginning - the same card can say something different depending on the querent? Not only on the question but also on the querent?

 

Yes, I've thought about this as I'm sure have many others. It's a great question.

 

Okay, let’s throw this fourth variable into the mix.  We’ve been looking at how traditional meanings, intuition, and personal experience inform our readings.  How important is knowledge of the querent?

 

The answer seems obvious to me – very important.  But maybe that’s just me, or maybe I’m missing something, because TT&M is full of threads wherein people, including many whose tarot skills and intelligence I respect and have learned from, offer readings based on little information other than the cards themselves. 

 

I was looking at the Mary-el Queen of Disks (Pentacles) the other day,

                         

just kind of meditating, and I started to cry.  I was, without intending to, reading the card about myself.  In my personal system – wow, personal systems, another topic that we might get to sometime! – this Queen is at the next to last stop on the last discrete journey in the meta journey of the deck.  Holding this in mind along with traditional meanings, intuition and personal experience, I thought to myself, you are at the end.  One more step and the journey is over.  You are at your destination, and the journey has not been successful.  You have achieved little of what you hoped for.  Your life is empty of much of what gives life meaning.  Of course you are crying, of course you are bleak, of course snakes are coiling over your face and choking your mouth and nose.  You have survived, but at what cost? 

 

Too much information, perhaps, and if I were in a different mood or having a different kind of day I might not have been so grim, but I need to be brutally honest to get my point across, and here comes the point.  I didn’t “get” this reading in a vacuum.  It scared me, and I wondered what would happen if I drew the card about someone else, so I made up a someone else and gave it a try.  The results were very different indeed.

 

I pictured a young woman, healthy, fulfilled, loving life.  I pictured myself reading this card as it represented her, and I told her:

 

“This is a wonderful card!  Pentacles are the suit of material force, the things that give our life meaning – friends, family, activities and essential possessions.  They are the practical, productive, prosperous suit.  And Queens are the culmination of a life, the representation of the fully realized emotional self in terms of the energy of their suit.

 

“This card tells me that as you journey through this lifetime you will be rewarded with success in the realm of Pentacles.  By the time you reach your destination, many years from now when your hair is silver and your face still as beautiful as it is today, you will be encrusted with jewels.  Look at how peaceful and composed the Queen is.  She rests on a pillow of flowers (I didn’t even register the flowers when the Queen was myself) and cries with joy.

 

“You have a wonderful life awaiting you.  Continue your journey knowing that whatever happens along the way will be worth it.  There will be happy ending.”

 

So – same card from the same deck, same meanings, same me with the same intuition and experience, different querent, different reading.  Comments, anyone? 

 

 

[Saturn Celeste]

I've found that I have quite a bit of difficulty with trusting my intuition but when I do the reading is usually spot on even if it doesn't make much sense as I'm saying it.

 

Trust your cards too FeeLion!  The more you use them the more trust you'll build with them.  When you trust in your cards totally, the intuition will really kick in.

 

I know I shouldn't be using the book to do readings but I make sure to explain how I do things before I start so my sitter knows what to expect. I quite often find that there are threads of commonality I wouldn't see if I didn't pick up the book, like a repeated passage for example. Every repetition reinforces the message that needs to be gotten across to my sitter.

 

You're learning!  There is nothing wrong with referring to books!  It's how you learn.  The more you read about the 7 of Swords, the more you learn the card.  It's all apart of learning tarot.  I get way out in the weeds sometimes with my readings and I need to grab a book and bring myself back to center on the tarot card in question.  It grounds me.  You're doing great, FeeLion!  ^-^

[joy]

 

As far as I understand Tarot - I am still at the very beginning - the same card can say something different depending on the querent? Not only on the question but also on the querent?

 

Yes, I've thought about this as I'm sure have many others. It's a great question.

 

Okay, let’s throw this fourth variable into the mix.  We’ve been looking at how traditional meanings, intuition, and personal experience inform our readings.  How important is knowledge of the querent?

 

The answer seems obvious to me – very important.  But maybe that’s just me, or maybe I’m missing something, because TT&M is full of threads wherein people, including many whose tarot skills and intelligence I respect and have learned from, offer readings based on little information other than the cards themselves. 

 

I was looking at the Mary-el Queen of Disks (Pentacles) the other day,

                         

just kind of meditating, and I started to cry.  I was, without intending to, reading the card about myself.  In my personal system – wow, personal systems, another topic that we might get to sometime! – this Queen is at the next to last stop on the last discrete journey in the meta journey of the deck.  Holding this in mind along with traditional meanings, intuition and personal experience, I thought to myself, you are at the end.  One more step and the journey is over.  You are at your destination, and the journey has not been successful.  You have achieved little of what you hoped for.  Your life is empty of much of what gives life meaning.  Of course you are crying, of course you are bleak, of course snakes are coiling over your face and choking your mouth and nose.  You have survived, but at what cost? 

 

This sounds very depressing and I do not know you personally.  However I have a hard time to believe your journey was not successful. What is the meaning of success? Money? Love? Your grandson comes visiting you, he must love you <3 And I love reading what your write, you seem such a beautiful and wise soul! <3

 

I went ahead and did some research on this card meaning. This is what I found:

Here in the Queen of Disks, crying is the lubricant that allows movement of souls on their journey to the underworld.

Roots and crystals, water of earth. Her tears are mineral, her head is the root of the life growing upon her. From her are the building blocks of matter, building, growing. There are roses in full bloom and a dry creek bed. She watches over her realm, making solid the light in her eyes.

 

 

Too much information, perhaps, and if I were in a different mood or having a different kind of day I might not have been so grim, but I need to be brutally honest to get my point across, and here comes the point.  I didn’t “get” this reading in a vacuum.  It scared me, and I wondered what would happen if I drew the card about someone else, so I made up a someone else and gave it a try.  The results were very different indeed.

Yes I think you should revisit the card and mediate again, I am sure you get a different answer.

 

Love and hugs!  <3 ((

[Saturn Celeste]

Grandma, me thinks you edited a post along the way but I do want to reply to something you did say at one time. lol

 

Grandma Quote:

Okay, let’s throw this fourth variable into the mix.  We’ve been looking at how traditional meanings, intuition, and personal experience inform our readings.  How important is knowledge of the querent?

 

The answer seems obvious to me – very important.

In all honesty, I disagree with you about having knowledge of the querent.  I have done hundreds of online readings and I connect to my querent.  I really just need a name and their sign.  The sign gives me a jumping off point into them.  I have countless readings where all I get is the name, usually the sign and it they want a general reading.  So I really don't have any knowledge of them except a name and sign but I work with that and so do my cards.  I think some of it is having that extra trust in my cards.  When I do these kind of readings I feel I will pull the cards necessary to help the querent.  It's funny because after so many of these types of readings and talk to the querent again, the actual situation flows out of them! What really gives me the encouragement to continue like I have is when they say to me, "How did I know?"  I have had some readings like this fall flat, but it's how I learned.  I still take readings without knowing anything and just call it a general reading. ;)