Philosophize with Aldor44 and Grandma !!!***NEW TOPIC CHECK IT OUT***!!!

[Grandma]

The thread has stalled.  I was going to do a yes/no reading if it is time to introduce a new topic (joke – I don’t do yes/no readings; they have at least four possible answers, yes, no, maybe, and how the hell should I know, and they make me dizzy).  Instead, I figured I’d just throw one out there, run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes as the old expression went.

 

Feel free to stick with the current subject if that suits you, or join my exploration of the Fool’s Journey.

 

I’m assigning outside reading.  Saturn Celeste did say I’m the boss of the thread, after all, and while I joked back at this joke, I’ll assume the role for the sake of this comment.

 

So please read Joan Bunning on the Fool’s Journey at http://learntarot.com/journey.htm#hierojourney and an example of how I sometimes incorporate it into readings at https://www.thetarotforum.com/tarot-for-yourself/is-he-the-love-of-my-life/msg51294/#msg51294 and discuss.

 

Or not.  I’m really not the boss of the thread.

 

[Saturn Celeste]

So please read Joan Bunning on the Fool’s Journey at http://learntarot.com/journey.htm#hierojourney

Or you can watch the fool's journey here! with Christopher Lee!  ^-^  Sorry Grandma, but this is such a cool video! ;)

[Grandma]

So please read Joan Bunning on the Fool’s Journey at http://learntarot.com/journey.htm#hierojourney

Or you can watch the fool's journey here! with Christopher Lee!  ^-^  Sorry Grandma, but this is such a cool video! ;)

 

No need to apologize for being an active and contributing philosopher!  I will watch the video pronto.

[TheFeeLion]

Greetings all ! Sorry for the late arrival.. it took me a while to read all 7 pages....  ::)

 

I will add a few of my cents into the mix.

 

1- I was thinking lately on a sentece from the book of thoth. I don't remember the exact quote but it spoke of the fact that in the end the meanings of cards are irrelevent because it is the reader who assigns them and as a result the cards that pop up arrange themselves with that readers  personal view.. think.got me thinking that if it is true then the traditional meanings and the vast amount of books written on them become that less important....

 

As for the horse that started it all [emoji2]

 

I myself is trying to read as intuitively as possible, however so far I don't seem to be able to read cards without pictures for it seems I need images to stimulate my mind. What I do try to do is look at the picture - I like detailed ones and see what catches my eye.  Then I try to synergize what I know of the card with what I feel and come up with a meaning... in that case the sad horse jumped out to me....

You bit from the book of thoth about the way cards come up is very much in line with the way I view things :) nobody has all the knowledge in the world, or even all the knowledge the creator of whatever deck your using at the time had. So there is never any way for us to know exactly what they were thinking when the deck was created! All you can do it use what you have at the time of the reading. If all you have is whatever is in your head then dig as far as you can into that pretty little head of yours. If you have books or internet access then use those too if you want. At some point though you have to trust that you're not getting stuff that you can't interpret, you have to trust your intuition :)

 

 

Grandma - I will be coming back to this when I have more time to properly look at those links :D just had to throw my hat into the ring (is that the right analogy?) on Aldor44's comment :)

[Wanderer]

So, the Fool's Journey (and other stuff)... I've had to spend a while thinking about this one, because looking at some recent readings I've done (especially last night) is leading me to some unexpected possibilities...

 

Basically, no, I don't use the sequence of the Journey. This is because I see the journey as being contrived; a very different sequence would give just as compelling a story, if not more so. In other words, the journey is something I don't think about, and usually that's also the case for progress within suits. In our lives we go through numerous part-cycles, rather than a single grand succession. I know others would disagree, but that doesn't matter here.

 

So, in last night's reading, some odd 'coincidences' turned up. The Opportunities card for risingsun[/member]  was the rising Sun. Challenges was the five of arrows: four of them missing the target in the air, the last on the bow. In the Advice card, those four arrows were planted in the ground by the figure's knees and shoulders, forming a barrier around him. These are the sorts of things that I notice (albeit not immediately, sometimes!), whereas the sequence of cards within a suit, or any numerology aspects, is something I deliberately shy away from unless there is a really clear pattern (I once had a self-reading starting with an ace, then three twos, then a gradual increase all the way up to one of the higher majors).

 

What am I rambling on about? Well, it just seems to me that the cards come out according to my own way of seeing things, and not according to how other people do it. It seems very much as though the cards are drawn for me, and for my style of reading, alone (hence being very cautious about interpreting anyone else's reading). Extrapolating, and including the fact that often the connections are not immediately obvious to me, it suggests that the cards come out according to a combination of my personal reading style and how I will see them given time to think, the real (unknown but perhaps partly intuited) situation*, and also using the traditional meanings of the cards as a basis. It's almost as though "someone" understands all of these, and then pushes me towards the right selections accordingly.

 

Can my subconscious do all of that? Dunno, but who else would it be..?  :o

 

*One of the most interesting parts of doing online readings is that sometimes one has a guess (initial intuition) as to how the cards will go, only to have it completely destroyed as soon as the cards start appearing. The cards, generally, are right. If the intuition was already from the subconscious, then whence comes the 'right' answer..?

[Guest]

emi[/member]

 

Emi, that is fascinating and informative.  However, I'm talking about readings here at TT&M, in a readings for feedback thread.  The writing I meant is posts people have made.  All I know about their question is pretty much the just the question.

 

Any thoughts?

 

As I reread this post I think I might have misunderstood.  Were you talking about forum readings or online as from a personal website or Etsy shop?  Sometimes I try to cram so much in that I miss important details, which is both easy and problematic in this densely informational and thought provoking thread.

 

I'm also worried that I sounded glib and dismissive  If so, I'm sorry.  That was pretty much the opposite of my intent.  I was fascinated and I learned a lot and I hope to hear much more from you.  I've noticed you on a few threads.  When I saw that you had joined ours I was eager to find out what you had to say!

 

:)) It's cool! I didn't think you did. I was talking about forum readings, but I think it could also apply to other places online where readings are done for others.

[Avalon]

I did follow the discussions and loved it.  It just you upperclassmen are too fast for this K Grad to keep up.  By the time I finish thinking, you are onto another topic already. ;D

 

Since it's a little quiet, I have a question.

Why are the Pages consider an Earth element?

 

[ThreeCircleTarot]

Since it's a little quiet, I have a question.

Why are the Pages consider an Earth element?

 

For probably arbitrary reasons x3 I think someone young might be a little more up in the air? While knights, quick and passionate as they can be, would be fire. Queens are water and Kings are earth. In my mind, anyways.

 

More importantly, if you decide correspondences are arbitrary, they are! It's all about working with the connections your mind makes most easily, I think. No use wasting energy consciously training yourself in thinking in a way that doesn't come naturally when you're supposed to be channeling an important message to the querent. Second guessing has always led to the death of wisdom, in my experience!

[Guest libra]

Grandma, me thinks you edited a post along the way but I do want to reply to something you did say at one time. lol

 

Grandma Quote:

Okay, let’s throw this fourth variable into the mix.  We’ve been looking at how traditional meanings, intuition, and personal experience inform our readings.  How important is knowledge of the querent?

 

The answer seems obvious to me – very important.

In all honesty, I disagree with you about having knowledge of the querent.  I have done hundreds of online readings and I connect to my querent.  I really just need a name and their sign.  The sign gives me a jumping off point into them.  I have countless readings where all I get is the name, usually the sign and it they want a general reading.  So I really don't have any knowledge of them except a name and sign but I work with that and so do my cards.  I think some of it is having that extra trust in my cards.  When I do these kind of readings I feel I will pull the cards necessary to help the querent.  It's funny because after so many of these types of readings and talk to the querent again, the actual situation flows out of them! What really gives me the encouragement to continue like I have is when they say to me, "How did I know?"  I have had some readings like this fall flat, but it's how I learned.  I still take readings without knowing anything and just call it a general reading. ;)

 

Saturn Celeste[/member] so is the meaning for the same card always the same? Eg 3 of Swords in a one card love reading. Would your cards always tell you it is about heartbreak or can there be variations?

 

I hope you don't mind me jumping back in time here by about a month, but this portion of the conversation is really my wheelhouse and I wanted to add my thoughts!  I haven't yet read any further, so my apologies if I'm simply repeating what others have said (and feel free to ignore this if the conversation has moved irrevocably forward!)

 

For me, reading with background info and no background info are really just 2 different types of readings.  The first is all about seeking solutions and paths forward from where the querent is.  The second, with no information given, is all about bringing the important aspects to light for a person.  They may not even know what's troubling them, and a good reading without bias gives them that clarity. 

 

I've had situations where I've had hundreds of tiny readings in a row, knowing nothing about the people I'm reading with, and very often I'll get the same card repeatedly throughout the session.  Sometimes the 3 of Swords will be talking about heartbreak in a relationship, sometimes it'll be about feeling the brightness, inner strength pounding through, even in pain and cold rain.  Sometimes it will be a call to action - those swords can be weaponized and you can fight back.  Sometimes is simply about needing to retreat, remove them, and tend those wounds.  With each time that I pull it, my very first bodily reaction tells me what direction the card meaning is leading me. 

 

And, it's not really randomized for me, I guess I should mention that.  I'm an empath - I'm the type of person who builds connections with people instantly, if I don't have my barriers up.  I'm the one who gets bumped into in the grocery store and becomes a listening ear about all of the trials and tribulations of their life, and I've heard that awkward laugh followed by "I've never told anyone that!" more often than I can even remember. 

 

So, I tap into that for readings.  I don't need it all to be said to me, if I open up, it'll come to me anyway, assuming the querent is also open with their energy.  As well, it's not neccesary for them to actually touch me or make eye contact - like, that's a thing that triggers it in person, but when doing readings... Well, you've made some great friends online right?  Real connections with real people that you've never seen or met in person?  I have too, and I used to practice with them, things like joint meditations, seeing if I could affect their energy from afar (people who practice distance reiki should get what I mean!).  So, basically following the same pathways I do to talk to them - words are just a form of energy after all - I can trace energy, and read from there!

 

And now to read on and see how far behind I am, lol! :/

[Guest libra]

Ooo Grandma I just remembered something I did to help boost my intuition! Crystals! I'm not sure if you use them at all or whatever but thought I would mention it. I researched what kind of crystals and stones could help with intuition and then went out and got a whole lot :D I think they really helped to get me in the right frame of mind :)

 

This is definitely one thing that I've recommended to a lot of people!  Not just crystals, but making tarot reading an Experience.  Break out the velvet, the candles, the crystals, the incense, the clothes that flow and make you feel powerful.  You don't have to for every reading, but often enough that the process helps you get in the mood, the mindset.  Then, when you're feeling blocked, the mindful act of bringing out your crystals, the feeling of the cards slipping away from silk, the incense heavy in the air ... it'll settle your mind in and help to get that ball rolling!

[Grandma]

1) How exciting, we're back!  Thank you for the new topic, Avalon[/member].  I have some thoughts and will return to post them soon. 

 

2)

More importantly, if you decide correspondences are arbitrary, they are! It's all about working with the connections your mind makes most easily, I think. No use wasting energy consciously training yourself in thinking in a way that doesn't come naturally when you're supposed to be channeling an important message to the querent. Second guessing has always led to the death of wisdom, in my experience!

 

Interesting observation, ThreeCircleTarot.  Kind of a corollary perhaps to earlier and always relevant discussion about traditional meanings?

 

3) I've been reading through my old posts, not just in this thread but in general, and I'm puzzled as to why I was insisting that I'm not intuitive.  I actually am pretty intuitive - must have been feeling glum when I posted otherwise.  That's a topic for a psychologize thread, though, and that's a thread for a different forum. 

 

But my misguided observation did contribute to good discussion and suggestions about intuition, so it turned out fine!

 

4)

I hope you don't mind me jumping back in time here by about a month, but this portion of the conversation is really my wheelhouse and I wanted to add my thoughts!  I haven't yet read any further, so my apologies if I'm simply repeating what others have said (and feel free to ignore this if the conversation has moved irrevocably forward!)

 

..........

 

And now to read on and see how far behind I am, lol! :/

 

Welcome to the thread, Libra.  If you've had a chance to read back you will have discovered that there is nothing irrevocable about the direction of the conversation.  We purposefully meander rather than determinedly march, as the best philosophical discussions often do.

[TheFeeLion]

I did follow the discussions and loved it.  It just you upperclassmen are too fast for this K Grad to keep up.  By the time I finish thinking, you are onto another topic already. ;D

 

Since it's a little quiet, I have a question.

Why are the Pages consider an Earth element?

Ha I totally understand! As Grandma has already said, you are quite welcome to go back to earlier conversation and add your voice :)

 

As for your question, I'm going to take an educated guess with this one. I'm currently studying (very sporadically atm) thoth and one thing I came across has been the progression of energy from the majors into the minors and down through the suits. Each suit is its own Tree of Life. Let me see if I can explain... The energy starts off in the majors with the Fool and gradually makes its way down through to the World. From here it flows into the Fire suit, and from there onto Water, Air, and Earth respectively. As it flows downs through the elements it comes closer to manifest reality  where it can then begin the cycle again.

 

The Courts I can see as an expression of the suit progression in miniature. (Remembering here that tarot came about in an age that was very male dominated) We start with the Kings (or in thoth's case Knights), he is Fire and has the power and authority to do what is needed. As the energy flows down we see the Queen in her element of water, traditionally if you weren't able to go directly to the King you would speak with the queen and ask her to intercede on your behalf, hence her more emotional and receptive qualities. The energy then flows down to (I'm going to flick to the Thoth set-up here for the purpose of this analogy) the Prince (Knight in RWS) he is the air - ahem - heir to the throne. His time is spent learning all he needs to become a king as great as his father is. The final court card is Earth, the energy can go down no further and is now able to begin the cycle again, this is shown in the Princess or Page. As a Princess she is the fertile ground for a new dynasty, as a Page she has the potential to become a great Knight and commander. Both show the potential, the fresh and fertile ground where something new and glorious can grow.

 

I hope I got that all right lol I also hope it answered your question!

Ooo Grandma I just remembered something I did to help boost my intuition! Crystals! I'm not sure if you use them at all or whatever but thought I would mention it. I researched what kind of crystals and stones could help with intuition and then went out and got a whole lot :D I think they really helped to get me in the right frame of mind :)

 

This is definitely one thing that I've recommended to a lot of people!  Not just crystals, but making tarot reading an Experience.  Break out the velvet, the candles, the crystals, the incense, the clothes that flow and make you feel powerful.  You don't have to for every reading, but often enough that the process helps you get in the mood, the mindset.  Then, when you're feeling blocked, the mindful act of bringing out your crystals, the feeling of the cards slipping away from silk, the incense heavy in the air ... it'll settle your mind in and help to get that ball rolling!

I think that idea of ritual is great and can apply to anything, especially at the beginning. If you establish a ritual or common practice it becomes a lot easier over time to fall into the right mindset as soon as you start. Gradually you find that less and less of the ritual is needed to find that mindset, it becomes much quicker and more natural.

[Guest libra]

I did follow the discussions and loved it.  It just you upperclassmen are too fast for this K Grad to keep up.  By the time I finish thinking, you are onto another topic already. ;D

 

Since it's a little quiet, I have a question.

Why are the Pages consider an Earth element?

Ha I totally understand! As Grandma has already said, you are quite welcome to go back to earlier conversation and add your voice :)

 

As for your question, I'm going to take an educated guess with this one. I'm currently studying (very sporadically atm) thoth and one thing I came across has been the progression of energy from the majors into the minors and down through the suits. Each suit is its own Tree of Life. Let me see if I can explain... The energy starts off in the majors with the Fool and gradually makes its way down through to the World. From here it flows into the Fire suit, and from there onto Water, Air, and Earth respectively. As it flows downs through the elements it comes closer to manifest reality  where it can then begin the cycle again.

 

The Courts I can see as an expression of the suit progression in miniature. (Remembering here that tarot came about in an age that was very male dominated) We start with the Kings (or in thoth's case Knights), he is Fire and has the power and authority to do what is needed. As the energy flows down we see the Queen in her element of water, traditionally if you weren't able to go directly to the King you would speak with the queen and ask her to intercede on your behalf, hence her more emotional and receptive qualities. The energy then flows down to (I'm going to flick to the Thoth set-up here for the purpose of this analogy) the Prince (Knight in RWS) he is the air - ahem - heir to the throne. His time is spent learning all he needs to become a king as great as his father is. The final court card is Earth, the energy can go down no further and is now able to begin the cycle again, this is shown in the Princess or Page. As a Princess she is the fertile ground for a new dynasty, as a Page she has the potential to become a great Knight and commander. Both show the potential, the fresh and fertile ground where something new and glorious can grow.

 

I hope I got that all right lol I also hope it answered your question!

 

For me, I look at them differently! Pages are Earth, because they are the seed,the babies, the potential. At the same time, it's not like an airy idea, but the first physical steps one takes into embodying the energy of the suit.

 

Knights become Fire, to me. They are fast, impulsive, hard to stop once it's gotten going!

 

I've mentioned before that Queen's are pretty much the only consistent element association. They are the emotional embodiment of their suit, the heart of our all.

 

The Kings have mastered their suit, put in the time and thought to know the ins and outs. They aren't as warm and approachable As the Queens, at least not as a whole! And they aren't as impulsive as the Knights. They are the breath before a proclamation.

 

Ooo Grandma I just remembered something I did to help boost my intuition! Crystals! I'm not sure if you use them at all or whatever but thought I would mention it. I researched what kind of crystals and stones could help with intuition and then went out and got a whole lot :D I think they really helped to get me in the right frame of mind :)

 

This is definitely one thing that I've recommended to a lot of people!  Not just crystals, but making tarot reading an Experience.  Break out the velvet, the candles, the crystals, the incense, the clothes that flow and make you feel powerful.  You don't have to for every reading, but often enough that the process helps you get in the mood, the mindset.  Then, when you're feeling blocked, the mindful act of bringing out your crystals, the feeling of the cards slipping away from silk, the incense heavy in the air ... it'll settle your mind in and help to get that ball rolling!

I think that idea of ritual is great and can apply to anything, especially at the beginning. If you establish a ritual or common practice it becomes a lot easier over time to fall into the right mindset as soon as you start. Gradually you find that less and less of the ritual is needed to find that mindset, it becomes much quicker and more natural.

Aunt that the truth! I see it in witchcraft, all the newbies setting up their circles and wearing their robes and choosing their herbs carefully... And then me going "Yo spirit I See you there. I totally know what you're trying to do and you need to stop. Don't make me break out the cedar, it's across the room and I don't wanna get up. Just go."

 

But every every once in a while, I get blocked up in some way. In tarot and in my practice, and those are the times I'm glad that I still get ceremonial often enough to use that as a bit of a fire under my butt when I really need it!

[TheFeeLion]

For me, I look at them differently! Pages are Earth, because they are the seed,the babies, the potential. At the same time, it's not like an airy idea, but the first physical steps one takes into embodying the energy of the suit.

Heh your right there and that's what I was trying to say just in a slightly different way. Earthy energy is both an ending and a beginning, its energy has made its way down from the ethereal (fire) to the physical (earth) and now it gets to work its way back up to the ethereal.

 

Knights become Fire, to me. They are fast, impulsive, hard to stop once it's gotten going!

Have you thought about trying a Thoth based deck? Knights in Thoth are the equivelant of RWS's King. So a Thoth Knight would be Fire.

 

The Kings have mastered their suit, put in the time and thought to know the ins and outs. They aren't as warm and approachable As the Queens, at least not as a whole! And they aren't as impulsive as the Knights. They are the breath before a proclamation.

So I'm guessing you see the King as Air then?

 

 

Ha this whole elemental association thing drove me a bit batty when I first started tarot (about 18months ago). I couldn't seem to get past the wands/fire swords/air thing. To me it seemed wrong. Since I've started digging a bit deeper into Thoth though I've found I've begun to accept it a lot more because I can now begin to see the reasoning behind it all.

[Avalon]

First...thank you everyone who replied.

 

Second...I am applying each of the elements to a corresponding season.  This make a lot of sense to me, because I don't think the four suits are coincidences. *Note: I have not read books on this subject, only a gut feeling.

 

This is what I have come up with:

Water=Rain=Spring

Fire=Sun=Summer

Air=Breeze=Autumn

Earth=Rest/Recuperation=Winter

 

Water, Fire and Air is pretty self explanatory.  But for Earth, I am going to borrow a well-known Game of Thrones line, “Winter is coming.”  The survival of a clan/country is based on how prepared it is for winter and all of it depends on the work, harvest and the buy/sell/trade from spring to autumn.  For me, winter is the time of rests, rewards and planning for the next year.

*Note2: I know there are debates on the seasons too, I am not going there.

 

Third...the reason for my original question  “Why are the Pages consider an Earth element?” is if my Page years were the rests and rewards, I will cry myself a bloody river-real red blood cells.  The court cards are still undecided but this is my thinking map:

 

Solely on ED, I agree with ThreeCircleTarot[/member];

Kings=Earth; Queens=Cups; Knights=Fire; Pages=Air

 

The Thoth and the Tree of Life, I don't understand yet, but I understand the reasons TheFeeLion[/member] pointed out;

Knights=Fire; Queens=Cups; Princes=Air; Princesses=Earth

 

I also understand libra[/member] about the seed, the impulse, the emotion and the breath

Kings=Air; Queens=Cups; Knights=Fire; Pages=Earth

^I think women are viewed as water universally and with this said....

 

Based on the Seasons; I think

Kings=Earth; Queens=Air; Knights=Fire; Pages=Cups

 

I have to think about this some more, because in addition to this, there are the suits.  But that is for another day, my brain can only handle so much. 

[Jewel]

~claps hands~ Nothing like a good tarot element discussion  :biggrin:.  When it comes to the elements it is all about which deck and system I am using at the time because the deck structures and imagery reflect that so it requires some flexibility.

 

TheFeeLion[/member] I love how you broke down and distilled the Qabalistic approach and Thoth System.  libra[/member] I see things the exact same way you do when it comes to the courts and their elemental designations .... unless working with a Thoth based deck or decks that show the fire imagery for the kings which I then have to go back to what little I know and understand of the Qabalah (which is little).  But yes, I see the Pages as the seedlings  :)

 

Grandma, as to the Hero's Journey, and I do apologize for not doing the assigned reading, but as to the Hero's Journey I like the concept and found it a great learning tool, but it is not something I use in my readings as just as someone else stated I do find life linear so the idea of the progression does not resonate with me.  What I do see in the Majors are representative archetypes and influences which can happen anywhere along the journey and in cases where we are not learning the lessons well many times over one lifetime.