9 of Cups - Fishing for a Dream.

[Cookie]

When I was young (about 13) I watched a documentary about near-death experiences.  An ordinary working class lad who'd had a bike accident was explaining how he'd "died" for a few minutes at the scene.  He said his "spirit" left his body and he found himself walking along a path for what seemed like days, and among many exp he said that coming the other way was a really fat man dressed in extraordinary clothes and he was laughing; the lad stopped and asked him why he was laughing, and the man explained he was laughing so much because he was so happy and he was so fat because he was so full of love.  Anyway, they revived the lad & he lived to tell the tale.

 

When I got into the tarot & familiar with RWS 9 of cups, I read many things like he is a glutton, he's greedy, smug, he'd drunk all the wine in the cups, even lonely (if he is then he certainly does loneliness in style) etc etc, and none of this resonated with me.  For me (and this is just my humble opinion) that like the man in the lads nr-death experience his rotund-ness is a metaphor for being so full of love.  For me, the 9 of cups is one of the most spiritual of the minors.

 

I see the lessons of the story of the cups to be full of highs and lows of our human "emotion" experience.  I believe also the cups' lessons in life are something we experience younger in life: the love of the 2, partying, come-down/boredom, heartbreak/mourning etc etc, (and will prob keep on exp them through life),whereas for example the swords we experience a bit later in adulthood -- unless of course a person has a rather brutal and difficult incarnation then it would be experienced earlier.

 

And also the timeline for the 9 of cups is at odds with the suit.  We can, if we look at the story from the ace to the eight, see this happening rather quickly, but the 8 of cups -- which i happen to believe a very difficult card -- to the 9 could be many many years. 

Our man has gone to find himself in the 8/cups after the disappointment with thinking that his happiness lay not within the majesty of the moment but somewhere in the future in the form of a lover, or making money, or in bricks and mortar, but when that dream was reached he was unhappier than ever.  I read somewhere a fantastic line about the 8 of cups that "he has gone to discover the moon"

 

We don't know where he has been, what he has been doing, all we know he is now happy and appears to be rich (although this maybe a metaphor for rich in spirituality)... let's say content.  Yet we get the feeling many years have passed.  And this is the clever bit which I love of the tarot: this major bit is missing because no-one can teach us spirituality, we can be guided, but life-experience, sufferance, sacrifice and learning to forgive ourselves & others etc are essential (I believe).  The path is long and lonely, and is different for each and every one of us ... some will find it in mysticism, some in Buddhism, some in Christianity or one of the other major religions, some (maybe most) will find the light within, but all leads the same way....to love. 

 

And our man in the 9/cups has found the love in abundance.  If it is the "wish card" then this isn't the wish for a car or winning the lottery or getting the lover of your dreams (these were the false wishes of the 7/cups).  The real wish is happiness and love within.  Some say he has something to hide as his arms are crossed but i read the other day that this placement of his arms is the Lemniscate & the infinity symbol.  Which I liked.

 

So our man is waiting for his love and his family of the 10/cups, he knows they are coming (perhaps the moon told him?) and he can now love them and live happily until his time comes.

 

Would love to hear any points of view or other people's exp with 9/cups.  I particularly would like to hear things about the reverse of the 9, as i have a hard time interpreting the reverse. 

 

 

 

Now he knows how to love

       

[DanielJUK]

Thank you for sharing your great thoughts on this card Cookie.

 

The 9 cards in numerology are nearly there, so nearly at completion (with the 10) but not quite there yet! 9's are also a fulfilment. With the Cups this is about emotional fulfilment ultimately. This card is traditionally called the "wish card" and I have seen people associate "becareful what you wish for" with it. Like people who just want to meet their soul mate and then be with them forever, well what happens if they are no longer single but the person they meet is hellish? That is quite negative and if you are reading this card with reversals, the upright is usually quite positive!

 

The person is smug because he has got what he has wanted, he can enjoy life a little now and he deserves it! In the timeline of Cups Suit, the person goes off on a difficult journey to find emotional fulfilment and leave behind which is not fulfilling them (8 of Cups), with the 9 of Cups they are enjoying the choice they made, they have some rewards coming their way now. with the 10 of Cups, they are moving things to the next level, a new stage of emotional fulfilment. Because this is the Cups suit, 9 and 10 can be a little whimsical and idealist, is it real? or is it just what they feel? Feelings don't always reflect reality or the whole picture! With the 9 of Cups they can now see a possible positive and bright future, this is such a difference after the 8 of Cups.

 

This card for me is like a great big birthday dinner with your friends, many courses of food and alcohol and everything you want! It's like the best evening ever in your life but the next morning, oh the hang over and your stomach and you feel a little "tender" after that night! But that night, it was amazing, it's a reward and a positive thing that comes your way and you will remember it forever. There are consequences but everyone deserves some indulgence at times in their life :)

 

The reversal is the negative of this guy, indulgence turns to greed! I think the reversal is much more about something missing inside him, partying for example by yourself, where is his friends? Maybe he didn't care about other people and just did it for himself (greed). There is card is also a warning about over indulging in material pleasures, what if he has this dinner party for himself with many courses every night, instead of just a one off treat? I just recently watched the old French cult movie  La Grande Bouffe (The Big Feast) and a whole group of people challenge each other to eat themselves to death, it's not a horror movie but a surrealist comedy, it's a satire on consumerism and decadence. This card reversed reminds me of this, it's too much, where as the upright is a reward or wonderful emotional fulfilment! The person really needs to stop indulging, they have gone over the line! Finally the reversal is a warning about wishes not coming true, the upright 9 is a reward after the 8 of Cups, they made a choice to go off, to walk away from a situation not working out. But this reversal says they haven't taken enough action for emotional fulfilment to happen, maybe they took no steps to make something happen or perhaps they were unrealistic in their wish.

[Cookie]

Thank you for sharing your great thoughts on this card Cookie.

 

The 9 cards in numerology are nearly there, so nearly at completion (with the 10) but not quite there yet! 9's are also a fulfilment. With the Cups this is about emotional fulfilment ultimately. This card is traditionally called the "wish card" and I have seen people associate "becareful what you wish for" with it. Like people who just want to meet their soul mate and then be with them forever, well what happens if they are no longer single but the person they meet is hellish? That is quite negative and if you are reading this card with reversals, the upright is usually quite positive!

 

The person is smug because he has got what he has wanted, he can enjoy life a little now and he deserves it! In the timeline of Cups Suit, the person goes off on a difficult journey to find emotional fulfilment and leave behind which is not fulfilling them (8 of Cups), with the 9 of Cups they are enjoying the choice they made, they have some rewards coming their way now. with the 10 of Cups, they are moving things to the next level, a new stage of emotional fulfilment. Because this is the Cups suit, 9 and 10 can be a little whimsical and idealist, is it real? or is it just what they feel? Feelings don't always reflect reality or the whole picture! With the 9 of Cups they can now see a possible positive and bright future, this is such a difference after the 8 of Cups.

 

This card for me is like a great big birthday dinner with your friends, many courses of food and alcohol and everything you want! It's like the best evening ever in your life but the next morning, oh the hang over and your stomach and you feel a little "tender" after that night! But that night, it was amazing, it's a reward and a positive thing that comes your way and you will remember it forever. There are consequences but everyone deserves some indulgence at times in their life :)

 

The reversal is the negative of this guy, indulgence turns to greed! I think the reversal is much more about something missing inside him, partying for example by yourself, where is his friends? Maybe he didn't care about other people and just did it for himself (greed). There is card is also a warning about over indulging in material pleasures, what if he has this dinner party for himself with many courses every night, instead of just a one off treat? I just recently watched the old French cult movie  La Grande Bouffe (The Big Feast) and a whole group of people challenge each other to eat themselves to death, it's not a horror movie but a surrealist comedy, it's a satire on consumerism and decadence. This card reversed reminds me of this, it's too much, where as the upright is a reward or wonderful emotional fulfilment! The person really needs to stop indulging, they have gone over the line! Finally the reversal is a warning about wishes not coming true, the upright 9 is a reward after the 8 of Cups, they made a choice to go off, to walk away from a situation not working out. But this reversal says they haven't taken enough action for emotional fulfilment to happen, maybe they took no steps to make something happen or perhaps they were unrealistic in their wish.

 

Hi Daniel

 

Thank you for your interesting insights into this card.  I found the "careful what you wish for" observation resonates  as i've just read a book on magic, and it warns the reader not to try to influence another's will, as if you do a love spell & you create enough power & energy it may work, and because the person has interfered with another's destiny the lover will turn out to be hellish. 

 

Whether we believe in this is beside the point, but what it means is the "wish" the "dream" will always turn out be different than we imagine.  A lover, a stack of cash, a sports car can lend us "happiness" for a while but it will always be taken back if these are only things we rely on to make us feel alive.

 

I found your reversal informative, the something "missing" part I can relate too.  I'm now at the point where I can be in a moment or rem a time and say that's the "6 of pentacles experience" or such & such a card.  Me and my friends went to Ibiza for a week to celebrate end of exams, and I was really really looking forward to it, but when i was there, there was something missing inside.  I was with all my friends, had all the summer ahead, out every nite etc and i should of been happy but i found i wasn't, i was just going through the motions.  I wasn't comfortable with getting drunk all the time, indulging, and also the "meat market" of the night-clubs made me feel very uncomfortable & just wasn't me.  So that was my 9 of cups reversed experience.

 

The film Le Grande Bouffe sounds funny, and like a film noir grotesque.  Reminds me of Mr Creosote of the Monty Python film, but that was more a parody rather than a satire.

 

Anyway, thanks again. 

[Thoughtful]

  I read somewhere a fantastic line about the 8 of cups that "he has gone to discover the moon"

 

Hello Cookie!

 

l am an oldie and l appreciate and enjoy reading what you younger (l read your profile) ones have to say. You have a lovely sensible spirituality.

 

 

The quote on the 8 cups struck a chord with me in association with the 9 cups.

The Moon being illusion, fantasy, fears, and anxieties, can represents our inner self. The 8 cups shows me someone bravely moving, or perhaps needing to move forward,  to explore their shadow side. Getting past our inner torments, the howling hounds, is showing an attempt to unlock and explore the shadow self.  The biggest illusion here is the moon itself, it shines brightly in the night sky allowing us to see where we are going.  But where does it lead us, it leads to confrontation with self.  The Moon has no light of its own, it is dark and barren, it fools us.  The Moon's light comes from the reflection of the Sun. 

 

The Sun's light beckons us through the dark regions of the Moon to face our realities, our shadow side.  When we face them and eventually deal with them,  we can drop past baggage, the healing begins, and we can start to enjoy the warmth, life and love of our own pure reality.

 

This is why the jolly, rotund man in the 9 cups is happy. he has come through the darkness of his shadow side, dealt with it and understands it,  and now he wishes you to see your inner happiness and the light as well.

 

l do not do reversals so cannot help there Cookie.

[Cookie]

  I read somewhere a fantastic line about the 8 of cups that "he has gone to discover the moon"

 

Hello Cookie!

 

l am an oldie and l appreciate and enjoy reading what you younger (l read your profile) ones have to say. You have a lovely sensible spirituality.

 

 

The quote on the 8 cups struck a chord with me in association with the 9 cups.

The Moon being illusion, fantasy, fears, and anxieties, can represents our inner self. The 8 cups shows me someone bravely moving, or perhaps needing to move forward,  to explore their shadow side. Getting past our inner torments, the howling hounds, is showing an attempt to unlock and explore the shadow self.  The biggest illusion here is the moon itself, it shines brightly in the night sky allowing us to see where we are going.  But where does it lead us, it leads to confrontation with self.  The Moon has no light of its own, it is dark and barren, it fools us.  The Moon's light comes from the reflection of the Sun. 

 

The Sun's light beckons us through the dark regions of the Moon to face our realities, our shadow side.  When we face them and eventually deal with them,  we can drop past baggage, the healing begins, and we can start to enjoy the warmth, life and love of our own pure reality.

 

This is why the jolly, rotund man in the 9 cups is happy. he has come through the darkness of his shadow side, dealt with it and understands it,  and now he wishes you to see your inner happiness and the light as well.

 

l do not do reversals so cannot help there Cookie.

 

Thank you Thoughtful.  I've read a few of your posts and you are one of the people on here that I feel I can definitely learn from.  So you saying that means a lot.  And your interpretation of our man's journey through the 8 of cups is most poignant. 

 

I feel that The Moon of the Majors is the biggest fall, more than Death, The devil, The Tower (i was going to say all together but maybe not) it is where the seeker is most likely to fail -- so near yet so far.  It is (i believe) where the seeker thinks he knows it all, after sacrificing everything, learning so much and coming through so many trials, and he thinks he has the wisdom of The High Priestess but then he realises he knows nothing and is "...just a pair of ragged claws scuttling across the floors of silent seas..." to quote TS Eliot.  If the seeker survives himself then he is re-born into The Sun, and in the Kabbalah it is the journey over the abyss which is the path of The High Priestess and the real "dark night of the soul"

 

And something i've just realised when I was reading your post is that with the RWS pip cards that show the moon there is a lesson of the major on a lesser scale about sacrifice, facing a demon in yourself, re-birth, etc even in the 2 of swords she is sacrificing her sight & ignoring her emotions (her back to the water) and quieting herself to silence so she can listen to the inner-voice and perhaps deal with the problem she has.

 

When I first got into tarot i bought a book from Waterstones on tarot and the sales assistant was a tarot reader and she told me that learning the tarot never stops, it is infinite.  On the bus on the way home i flicked through the book, and thought "what's she on about ? all i have to do is memorise this lot..."  How wrong i was, and i'm very pleased about it!

 

I see from your profile that you are a Reiki Master, Thoughtful.  It's something i'm interested in but know little about.  Could you recommend a good beginners book for me please.  Many  thanks. 

 

     

[Thoughtful]

Again Cookie a very thoughtful post. 

 

As we all come to realise eventually tarot is an ongoing process, l am still learning all the time.  Most especially when gathering all the comments  gained here on the forum by people like yourself.

 

Below is a link you may be interested in regarding Reiki. 

 

 

http://reikiseichem.org/

 

 

 

[Cookie]

Thank you for that

[Guest Night Shade]

Thank you for this topic, Cookie; it's making me think.  My response won't be as sophisticated as everyone else's, but I'll give it my best shot.

 

First of all, being a really fat person myself, I love the idea that the man on the 9 of Cups is fat with love.  I would also say that he is fat with abundance.  From this perspective, I'd say that he's tasted everything that the world has to offer, and has gained much from it; physically, of course, but also emotionally (since Cups represent emotions).  It gives him an emotional high to know that he owns more and has experienced more than most other people.  This is where his smugness comes from: but as DanielJUK said, maybe he has the right to be a little smug.  If he has in fact been searching for the moon, then maybe he earned all he has through a long, hard, journey.

 

I think the 9 of cups reversed adds a bit of melancholy to the situation.  The man has tasted everything, so there's nothing left to experience; it's the feeling of "been there, done that".  So it's back to the 8 of Cups for another journey of discovery.

 

Finally, I just want to comment on the idea that the 9 of Cups man has overcome his dark side (this isn't really a commentary on the card, it's just my personal opinion).  I believe that you need to embrace both your dark and light sides, or you'll never be complete.  You get a different kind of strength from each, and if you have too much of either, you'll be completely out of balance.  The 9 of Cups man seems pretty balanced to me, so I think he's accepted and embraced all of himself.  But again, this is just my opinion. 

[Cookie]

Thank you for this topic, Cookie; it's making me think.  My response won't be as sophisticated as everyone else's, but I'll give it my best shot.

 

First of all, being a really fat person myself, I love the idea that the man on the 9 of Cups is fat with love.  I would also say that he is fat with abundance.  From this perspective, I'd say that he's tasted everything that the world has to offer, and has gained much from it; physically, of course, but also emotionally (since Cups represent emotions).  It gives him an emotional high to know that he owns more and has experienced more than most other people.  This is where his smugness comes from: but as DanielJUK said, maybe he has the right to be a little smug.  If he has in fact been searching for the moon, then maybe he earned all he has through a long, hard, journey.

 

I think the 9 of cups reversed adds a bit of melancholy to the situation.  The man has tasted everything, so there's nothing left to experience; it's the feeling of "been there, done that".  So it's back to the 8 of Cups for another journey of discovery.

 

Finally, I just want to comment on the idea that the 9 of Cups man has overcome his dark side (this isn't really a commentary on the card, it's just my personal opinion).  I believe that you need to embrace both your dark and light sides, or you'll never be complete.  You get a different kind of strength from each, and if you have too much of either, you'll be completely out of balance.  The 9 of Cups man seems pretty balanced to me, so I think he's accepted and embraced all of himself.  But again, this is just my opinion.

 

Thank you for getting back to me, Night Shade.  To the contrary of not being sophisticated that is one of the best  reversal interpretation of 9 of cups i've ever read.  And I've read a lot.  We can read the accepted and blueprint meaning for something over & over again but if it doesn't chime inside of us, then it's not for us.  When something resonates with you in the Tarot then we've got to go with it; and hopefully our own ideas will unfurl.  For me it's like getting the first ice-pick and hold into an idea.  I've read readers advising someone to go back to the card before because there's an energy blockage in the reverse, that's all very well, but if one's mind is not tarot-developed enough to understand this then it means absolutely nothing.  but you describe clearly why.

 

I like your yin/yang take on the upright too; which I believe is the accomplishment of a lifetime for a seeker of truth.  I can tell you have that slight abstract way (I dislike the phrase "thinking outside the box") of looking at the cards which i believe is an essential ingredient for a good reader.     

[Guest Night Shade]

Thank you for getting back to me, Night Shade.  To the contrary of not being sophisticated that is one of the best  reversal interpretation of 9 of cups i've ever read.  And I've read a lot.  We can read the accepted and blueprint meaning for something over & over again but if it doesn't chime inside of us, then it's not for us.  When something resonates with you in the Tarot then we've got to go with it; and hopefully our own ideas will unfurl.  For me it's like getting the first ice-pick and hold into an idea.  I've read readers advising someone to go back to the card before because there's an energy blockage in the reverse, that's all very well, but if one's mind is not tarot-developed enough to understand this then it means absolutely nothing.  but you describe clearly why.

 

I like your yin/yang take on the upright too; which I believe is the accomplishment of a lifetime for a seeker of truth.  I can tell you have that slight abstract way (I dislike the phrase "thinking outside the box") of looking at the cards which i believe is an essential ingredient for a good reader.   

 

Thank you, Cookie, you've really encouraged me.  Sometimes I think that everything I write is just a bunch of drivel.

[Grizabella]

So many good insights have been shared here! I decided to just go to my reference books on Tarot to see what little tidbits extra I might be able to find to add to all this good info we've got here.

 

The first tidbit to share comes from Tarot and the Tree of Life by Isabel Radow Kleigman. In her section on the 9 of Cups she wrote something that really resonates with me. She said that the tablecloth behind the guy in the 9 of Cups is quite long and is more like a curtain. That being the case, she asks "Is something hidden behind it?" meaning the curtain. The 9 of Cups falls in Yesod on the Tree of Life which is associated with the Moon and the subconscious. hidden from our awareness.  She says the negatives of this care involve sweeping things under the rug. We distract ourselves with our addictions that keep us from having to face the reality of our lives and that's addiction. I'm an alcoholic in recovery so I can identify strongly with that. A counselor once told me I intellectualize things instead of feeling them, meaning I shove them quickly out of mind and then seek to anaesthetize myself with something else, whether it's a substance or an activity/interest. You were wanting a reversed 9 of Cups and that's what this seems like it would be.

 

 

[Cookie]

So many good insights have been shared here! I decided to just go to my reference books on Tarot to see what little tidbits extra I might be able to find to add to all this good info we've got here.

 

The first tidbit to share comes from Tarot and the Tree of Life by Isabel Radow Kleigman. In her section on the 9 of Cups she wrote something that really resonates with me. She said that the tablecloth behind the guy in the 9 of Cups is quite long and is more like a curtain. That being the case, she asks "Is something hidden behind it?" meaning the curtain. The 9 of Cups falls in Yesod on the Tree of Life which is associated with the Moon and the subconscious. hidden from our awareness.  She says the negatives of this care involve sweeping things under the rug. We distract ourselves with our addictions that keep us from having to face the reality of our lives and that's addiction. I'm an alcoholic in recovery so I can identify strongly with that. A counselor once told me I intellectualize things instead of feeling them, meaning I shove them quickly out of mind and then seek to anaesthetize myself with something else, whether it's a substance or an activity/interest. You were wanting a reversed 9 of Cups and that's what this seems like it would be.

 

Hi Grizabella,

 

thank you for the reply.  Yes, intellectualizing and analysis are obvious and very human traits, yet it is a huge irony that it tends to make us very un-human when it cuts us off from our feelings.  I have the same problem, and it very much gets in the way of "realness" and wholeness as a person, as once we start to intellectualize a feeling it's gone forever, and a feeling no more.  As you understand the Kabbalah you will know that it is getting the balance between feeling (Netzach) and intellect (Hod) that is the key to not only learning but to a full life. Not easy.

I find it also gets in the way of progress with tarot , however i'm learning. I like to imagine my inner-voice saying to my thoughts:  "For god sakes...shut up you idiot and let me be." 

 

Anyway, that is a very good insight into the reverse 9 of cups.  I didn't think about using Yesod to try to understand this card...i had no idea why i called the post "fishing for a dream" and sort of cringed every time i saw it as it made no sense, but perhaps it was fishing in the subconscious...who knows.  Yesod works perfectly.  I've just looked it up and Idleness is the vice of Yesod, ...the devil makes work of idle hands... and all that.  I wondered about the curtain as it is very long and so obviously means something important, however i chose to ignore it as it didn't fit with anything i was saying, and would of somehow contradicted the "utopia" of the card ... this,if i'm honest, is not a good idea if one wants to be taken seriously....we live and learn i guess. 

But now, of course, with your post i can see it's the dark side/shadow/reverse that this represents.  I can see him under the table drinking the cups wondering where it all went wrong.   

[Grizabella]

Actually I don't know the Tree of Life well at all, but I do have this particular book that talks about it as it applies to the Minors and I find it very interesting. I'm always interested in learning more about Tarot. I just thought I'd share that since reversed 9 of Cups was part of the topic of this thread. :)