Cookie Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 I have a great interest in the RWS infamous "stage cards". For those of you who haven't noticed (i only noticed 2-3 months ago, and i've studying them for 10 months) in certain minor cards Pamela Coleman-smith has drawn two thin lines at the bottom of the card, which makes it look like a stage at a theater and the background a backdrop...perhaps the 2 of cups and the page of cups are the best examples. Apparently Coleman-smith worked as an artist at the theater at the time, and Waite was secretive and a bit of a pompous-ass about the meanings. I have counted 15 although a couple are debatable. I have read that there are two reasons and meanings for the stage cards. The first is that it is a psychological process rather than an event, a play perhaps performed in one's mind. And the other meaning which I prefer (but both are good) it is like a performance on a stage where all is not what it seems, somethings not real...just like the theater & perhaps actual life. I like to make up little stories with this in mind; like say the 10 of cups and the "perfect happy family". Many times do we see the rich perfect family who we think have got it all (cars, love, success, money, huge house etc) but it's all a facade, the parents have huge debts & are having affairs left right and center, and despise each other, while the "perfect" children are spoilt drug addicts who hate their parents. But as long as the dinner parties are successful and they keep up the facade that's all that matters. And in the 5 of swords the fight has been staged. The man seemingly distressed at the shoreline is actually laughing. They are brothers but the younger one has become a pain, manipulative and is holding the older brother back. He wants out but the younger brother will follow if he leaves so to shake him off he stages a fight and let's him think he's won. Now he can leave his troublesome brother and go start a new life with his wife (see 6 of swords). And perhaps in the 7 of swords (another stage card) he has come back in disguise to take back what's his. Or the 6 of pentacles the merchant is just looking for spiritual profit by giving to the poor. He is not altruistic but a charlatan. Anyway, I would really like to hear people's ideas about what they think of the about the "stage cards" and perhaps their own interpretation etc. And if you fancy having a crack at your own little stories (it's actually surprising what you learn) i'd live to read them !
DevonCarter Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 I just noticed that about 5 of swords last night, but I didn't think about it being a stage. The way it fit in the reading I was doing it seemed more like a balcony sparring area, a training ground, so to speak. That's very interesting about the stage and backdrop thing, I can see that being something meaningful in some situations.
Cookie Posted October 17, 2018 Author Posted October 17, 2018 I just noticed that about 5 of swords last night, but I didn't think about it being a stage. The way it fit in the reading I was doing it seemed more like a balcony sparring area, a training ground, so to speak. That's very interesting about the stage and backdrop thing, I can see that being something meaningful in some situations. That's interesting that you saw it last nite, and its the awareness that matters. I believe that it shows real progress when we start noticing things in the cards. It's as though the symbols or colours or whatever we notice within the card are obscured from us until we are ready. 2 of swords was my fave card and it took me 10 months to see the stage (before i thought it was a beach) and now these stages have opened up a whole new meaning where i take into account that something may not be all it seems.
Raggydoll Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 Stage cards are interesting, but I must say I prefer the concept of Gate cards even more (as defined by Rachel Pollack, where certain cards are more potent than others and can act as portals for the mind when you are meditating or doing psychic readings). I remember having quite an interest for stage cards after reading about them in a book some 15 years ago. It might have been Rachel who mentioned them in her 78 degrees of tarot (that’s also where she first talks about gate cards). I used to think that those stages were really significant and that they held secret clues to Pamela’s own intentions. I still wouldn’t rule that out completely but I guess I have come to the conclusion that they don’t mean anything special for me at this point in time. I think they might have been a part of Pamela’s style but also that some cards might have reminded her about different characters or theatrical plays and that these cards therefore got this signature look. But it never stops being fun to speculate or to read about other people ideas. So I look forward to seeing what this topic will bring forth.
Saturn Celeste Posted October 17, 2018 Posted October 17, 2018 I found this thread from the old AT also, it has some very interesting posts about the stages! http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=127773
Cookie Posted October 17, 2018 Author Posted October 17, 2018 Stage cards are interesting, but I must say I prefer the concept of Gate cards even more (as defined by Rachel Pollack, where certain cards are more potent than others and can act as portals for the mind when you are meditating or doing psychic readings). I remember having quite an interest for stage cards after reading about them in a book some 15 years ago. It might have been Rachel who mentioned them in her 78 degrees of tarot (that’s also where she first talks about gate cards). I used to think that those stages were really significant and that they held secret clues to Pamela’s own intentions. I still wouldn’t rule that out completely but I guess I have come to the conclusion that they don’t mean anything special for me at this point in time. I think they might have been a part of Pamela’s style but also that some cards might have reminded her about different characters or theatrical plays and that these cards therefore got this signature look. But it never stops being fun to speculate or to read about other people ideas. So I look forward to seeing what this topic will bring yes, i was going to get that book when i get my student loan through ... it looks really good and her ideas are very leftfield i believe. The Gate cards i've never heard of...but sounds fascinating.,,portals of the mind!!!!! yes, i think sometimes we discover something in the cards & they mean so much (like when you first discovered stage cards), but then our relationship with the cards gets to a higher plane and something else takes its place. The stage cards are a new phenomenon for me but in a few months it'll be something else...like the "gate cards" and then the "stage cards' will have less meaning and influence on the readings. Like evolution. Fascinating! i'm not sure how much interest in RWS there is apart from beginners, i think they may be a little passe. There are so many other beautiful cards out there that the tarotists seem to be moving away from the older tarot . maybe. perhaps i'll do a topic on this subject next time.
Cookie Posted October 17, 2018 Author Posted October 17, 2018 yes that post above is from me...raggydoll...don't know what happened there, bit tired
Cookie Posted October 17, 2018 Author Posted October 17, 2018 I found this thread from the old AT also, it has some very interesting posts about the stages! http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=127773 Thanks Saturn Celeste, it looks really interesting & a lot of info. There is a surprisingly little on the net about stage cards
Cookie Posted October 18, 2018 Author Posted October 18, 2018 Stage cards are interesting, but I must say I prefer the concept of Gate cards even more (as defined by Rachel Pollack, where certain cards are more potent than others and can act as portals for the mind when you are meditating or doing psychic readings). I remember having quite an interest for stage cards after reading about them in a book some 15 years ago. It might have been Rachel who mentioned them in her 78 degrees of tarot (that’s also where she first talks about gate cards). I used to think that those stages were really significant and that they held secret clues to Pamela’s own intentions. I still wouldn’t rule that out completely but I guess I have come to the conclusion that they don’t mean anything special for me at this point in time. I think they might have been a part of Pamela’s style but also that some cards might have reminded her about different characters or theatrical plays and that these cards therefore got this signature look. But it never stops being fun to speculate or to read about other people ideas. So I look forward to seeing what this topic will bring forth. Raggydoll[/member] Yes, i answered this last night and thought it had gone into the blue box, but it appears not to have. Bit pushed for time this morning, however, i'd like to say that book 78 degrees of tarot sounds fascinating. was thinking about that book next but now for sure. I really think as mad as this sounds that synchronicity puts then next book, article etc in front us by recommendation or just chance or whatever. It appears to have done for my progress anyway. And....."portals of the mind"...love it!!!!!!
Raggydoll Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 Cookie[/member] I decided to start a new topic on this and include some more information for you there (I didn't want to derail this topic when doing so). In case you didn't see it, here it is: https://www.thetarotforum.com/using-tarot/rws-gate-cards/msg51405/?topicseen#new
Raggydoll Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 yes, i was going to get that book when i get my student loan through ... it looks really good and her ideas are very leftfield i believe. The Gate cards i've never heard of...but sounds fascinating.,,portals of the mind!!!!! yes, i think sometimes we discover something in the cards & they mean so much (like when you first discovered stage cards), but then our relationship with the cards gets to a higher plane and something else takes its place. The stage cards are a new phenomenon for me but in a few months it'll be something else...like the "gate cards" and then the "stage cards' will have less meaning and influence on the readings. Like evolution. Fascinating! i'm not sure how much interest in RWS there is apart from beginners, i think they may be a little passe. There are so many other beautiful cards out there that the tarotists seem to be moving away from the older tarot . maybe. perhaps i'll do a topic on this subject next time. The RWS will always hold a special place for me. Always. Even if I take a small (or long) break from it, it never stops to intrigue me and I am always pulled back. But then again, I have never been the kind of person that cares about trends. ^-^
Guest Night Shade Posted October 18, 2018 Posted October 18, 2018 I've heard of stage cards before, but I've never really considered them. So I thought I'd try to come up with some alternative meanings for them, based on the premise that they represent people who are "putting on a show". 4 of Wands - People who are always smiling and laughing, saying "look at us, we have the perfect life", even when their lives may not actually be perfect at all. They're obsessed with keeping up with the Jones's, like Hyacinth Bucket from "Keeping up Appearances" 9 of Wands - This could be someone who's pretending to be tougher than they are. They're actually terrified of everything and everyone, so they try to scare people away. They're like a little lap dog who stands in your path barking its head off, then runs away when you get too close. 10 of Wands - Someone who's playing the martyr. They want everyone to see what a load they're bearing. 2 of Cups - An arranged marriage, or a marriage of convenience. If you look closely, this couple doesn't look especially thrilled with each other; maybe their relationship is just something they have to put up with for the sake of someone or something else. 5 of Cups - I think this is a stage card-it's kind of hard to tell. This suggests to me someone who's being a drama queen, crying about their misfortunes to anyone who'll listen, looking for sympathy. 8 of Cups - Again, I'm not sure this is a stage card, but assuming it is, it makes me think of someone who storms off after a fight, hoping you'll come running right after them. Or, if you look at the spiritual aspect of the card, it could be someone who pretends to walk a spiritual path, but is really just a poser. 10 of Cups - A seemingly perfect family, who are nothing of the sort behind closed doors. To quote my favorite band, HIM, "the home is where the dark is" (from the song Buried Alive by Love). 2 of Swords - Even though her body is tense, the woman in this card seems to have a calm expression. I see this expression as a mask - she doesn't want anyone to see just how tense and conflicted she really is. That's why her body language says "back off"; she doesn't want anyone to get too close and see through her facade. Perhaps that's why she wears the blindfold - she doesn't want anyone to see her true feelings in her eyes. 5 of swords - This is somewhat similar to the 9 of Wands, except that the man in the foreground is on the offensive, rather than the defensive. He's the person who plays the tough-guy bully, to hide the fact that he's weak and scared inside. Regarding the larger figure in the background, he almost seems to have an attitude of "whatever". This is someone who has been wounded, but is pretending that he doesn't care. 7 of Swords - This is a tough one. All I can think of is someone who does people wrong and pretends they don't care, when really they're eaten up with guilt inside. 2 of Pentacles - Someone who acts like they have it all together, but who in reality is barely staying afloat. Or maybe someone who plays the fool, so someone else will feel obligated to take up their responsibilities when they ultimately fumble them. 4 of pentacles - Another tough one. Maybe someone who comes across as tightfisted, but likes to donate money anonymously. Or someone who seems responsible with money, but is secretly a spendthrift who is going into debt. 6 of Pentacles - From the giver's perspective, someone who likes to publicly give, so others will applaud them for their generosity. From the beggars' perspective, they make me think of people who beg you for money for a meal or for the bus, when you know they're going to spend it on booze or drugs. 8 of Pentacles - Again, not sure if this is a stage card or not. If it is, it could represent someone who puts on a good show in front of the boss, but is really slacking off and letting his coworkers do all the work. Or, someone who tells themselves that they're satisfied with their career, but deep in their heart, they'd rather be doing something else. Wow, that was really long - thank you if you're still reading! These meanings are pretty negative, but I guess it's never a good thing when you're just putting on a show for others. Finally, I'd say that if a lot of stage cards come up in a reading, it means that person is extremely fake, or else not being true to themselves.
Cookie Posted October 19, 2018 Author Posted October 19, 2018 I've heard of stage cards before, but I've never really considered them. So I thought I'd try to come up with some alternative meanings for them, based on the premise that they represent people who are "putting on a show". 4 of Wands - People who are always smiling and laughing, saying "look at us, we have the perfect life", even when their lives may not actually be perfect at all. They're obsessed with keeping up with the Jones's, like Hyacinth Bucket from "Keeping up Appearances" 9 of Wands - This could be someone who's pretending to be tougher than they are. They're actually terrified of everything and everyone, so they try to scare people away. They're like a little lap dog who stands in your path barking its head off, then runs away when you get too close. 10 of Wands - Someone who's playing the martyr. They want everyone to see what a load they're bearing. 2 of Cups - An arranged marriage, or a marriage of convenience. If you look closely, this couple doesn't look especially thrilled with each other; maybe their relationship is just something they have to put up with for the sake of someone or something else. 5 of Cups - I think this is a stage card-it's kind of hard to tell. This suggests to me someone who's being a drama queen, crying about their misfortunes to anyone who'll listen, looking for sympathy. 8 of Cups - Again, I'm not sure this is a stage card, but assuming it is, it makes me think of someone who storms off after a fight, hoping you'll come running right after them. Or, if you look at the spiritual aspect of the card, it could be someone who pretends to walk a spiritual path, but is really just a poser. 10 of Cups - A seemingly perfect family, who are nothing of the sort behind closed doors. To quote my favorite band, HIM, "the home is where the dark is" (from the song Buried Alive by Love). 2 of Swords - Even though her body is tense, the woman in this card seems to have a calm expression. I see this expression as a mask - she doesn't want anyone to see just how tense and conflicted she really is. That's why her body language says "back off"; she doesn't want anyone to get too close and see through her facade. Perhaps that's why she wears the blindfold - she doesn't want anyone to see her true feelings in her eyes. 5 of swords - This is somewhat similar to the 9 of Wands, except that the man in the foreground is on the offensive, rather than the defensive. He's the person who plays the tough-guy bully, to hide the fact that he's weak and scared inside. Regarding the larger figure in the background, he almost seems to have an attitude of "whatever". This is someone who has been wounded, but is pretending that he doesn't care. 7 of Swords - This is a tough one. All I can think of is someone who does people wrong and pretends they don't care, when really they're eaten up with guilt inside. 2 of Pentacles - Someone who acts like they have it all together, but who in reality is barely staying afloat. Or maybe someone who plays the fool, so someone else will feel obligated to take up their responsibilities when they ultimately fumble them. 4 of pentacles - Another tough one. Maybe someone who comes across as tightfisted, but likes to donate money anonymously. Or someone who seems responsible with money, but is secretly a spendthrift who is going into debt. 6 of Pentacles - From the giver's perspective, someone who likes to publicly give, so others will applaud them for their generosity. From the beggars' perspective, they make me think of people who beg you for money for a meal or for the bus, when you know they're going to spend it on booze or drugs. 8 of Pentacles - Again, not sure if this is a stage card or not. If it is, it could represent someone who puts on a good show in front of the boss, but is really slacking off and letting his coworkers do all the work. Or, someone who tells themselves that they're satisfied with their career, but deep in their heart, they'd rather be doing something else. Wow, that was really long - thank you if you're still reading! These meanings are pretty negative, but I guess it's never a good thing when you're just putting on a show for others. Finally, I'd say that if a lot of stage cards come up in a reading, it means that person is extremely fake, or else not being true to themselves. Hi Night Shade, Thank you for your post,the interpretations on the "stage cards" are really imaginative. Some made me laugh. I particularly like the 8 & the 4 of pentacles. The 8 of pentacles person you spk of seem to be very common, but the best one is 2 of swords...how very perceptive of you Night Shade. I often think when we meet people we see the mask, a tiny sliver of the person, the rest is guarded & the real self is often the opposite of the facade they give out. I love the bit you say about the blindfolded eyes and the expose...it's so true, i see it every saturday night with the testosterone fueled-up "lads" giving it the big "I am", but when you look in their eyes they're just frightened little boys looking for mummy....not all of them a few are actually mental, but again that's given away by their crazy eyes! Your 7 of swords is a good one too, i often think he's taking back what's his, maybe like karma, a pay back for what's stolen, and some form of humiliation as he's doing it right in their camp under their noses. I really like your 5/swords too, again we meet this character all the time in real life everywhere where someone's got a little power, from the shop floor to the House of Commons I've just thought of quite a funny one that's quite avant-garde. You know transgendering's quite big at the moment...well in the 2 of cups they look exactly identical apart from their dress, this is him changing into her , or between two worlds (it is a 2 after all) and glimpsing the true self for the first time after years of repression & feeling fantastic with the liberation of it all. Actually,i was just considering that Waite would be turning in his grave, but then i thought about Carl Jung's anima that is said to be the unconscious feminine side of a man,and animus is the masculine unconscious side of a woman...so maybe this is not too far out after all ! I know this all looks like levity, but it's actually a good exercise in interpretive imaging of the cards. It's also good for understanding psychology and for self-reflection, as if we're truly honest we're all up on that stage, we are all guilty of the Freudian "projection". I hate hypocrisy, but recently i've understood why...because if i'm truly honest i'm a massive hypocrite & that it why i hate it so much...as painful as it is to be honest with myself sometimes. The first rule of any spiritual quest is forget everything you've learnt about life & yourself, it's all false, it's all staged managed by our ego's and society.
Raggydoll Posted October 19, 2018 Posted October 19, 2018 I've heard of stage cards before, but I've never really considered them. So I thought I'd try to come up with some alternative meanings for them, based on the premise that they represent people who are "putting on a show". 4 of Wands - People who are always smiling and laughing, saying "look at us, we have the perfect life", even when their lives may not actually be perfect at all. They're obsessed with keeping up with the Jones's, like Hyacinth Bucket from "Keeping up Appearances" 9 of Wands - This could be someone who's pretending to be tougher than they are. They're actually terrified of everything and everyone, so they try to scare people away. They're like a little lap dog who stands in your path barking its head off, then runs away when you get too close. 10 of Wands - Someone who's playing the martyr. They want everyone to see what a load they're bearing. 2 of Cups - An arranged marriage, or a marriage of convenience. If you look closely, this couple doesn't look especially thrilled with each other; maybe their relationship is just something they have to put up with for the sake of someone or something else. 5 of Cups - I think this is a stage card-it's kind of hard to tell. This suggests to me someone who's being a drama queen, crying about their misfortunes to anyone who'll listen, looking for sympathy. 8 of Cups - Again, I'm not sure this is a stage card, but assuming it is, it makes me think of someone who storms off after a fight, hoping you'll come running right after them. Or, if you look at the spiritual aspect of the card, it could be someone who pretends to walk a spiritual path, but is really just a poser. 10 of Cups - A seemingly perfect family, who are nothing of the sort behind closed doors. To quote my favorite band, HIM, "the home is where the dark is" (from the song Buried Alive by Love). 2 of Swords - Even though her body is tense, the woman in this card seems to have a calm expression. I see this expression as a mask - she doesn't want anyone to see just how tense and conflicted she really is. That's why her body language says "back off"; she doesn't want anyone to get too close and see through her facade. Perhaps that's why she wears the blindfold - she doesn't want anyone to see her true feelings in her eyes. 5 of swords - This is somewhat similar to the 9 of Wands, except that the man in the foreground is on the offensive, rather than the defensive. He's the person who plays the tough-guy bully, to hide the fact that he's weak and scared inside. Regarding the larger figure in the background, he almost seems to have an attitude of "whatever". This is someone who has been wounded, but is pretending that he doesn't care. 7 of Swords - This is a tough one. All I can think of is someone who does people wrong and pretends they don't care, when really they're eaten up with guilt inside. 2 of Pentacles - Someone who acts like they have it all together, but who in reality is barely staying afloat. Or maybe someone who plays the fool, so someone else will feel obligated to take up their responsibilities when they ultimately fumble them. 4 of pentacles - Another tough one. Maybe someone who comes across as tightfisted, but likes to donate money anonymously. Or someone who seems responsible with money, but is secretly a spendthrift who is going into debt. 6 of Pentacles - From the giver's perspective, someone who likes to publicly give, so others will applaud them for their generosity. From the beggars' perspective, they make me think of people who beg you for money for a meal or for the bus, when you know they're going to spend it on booze or drugs. 8 of Pentacles - Again, not sure if this is a stage card or not. If it is, it could represent someone who puts on a good show in front of the boss, but is really slacking off and letting his coworkers do all the work. Or, someone who tells themselves that they're satisfied with their career, but deep in their heart, they'd rather be doing something else. Wow, that was really long - thank you if you're still reading! These meanings are pretty negative, but I guess it's never a good thing when you're just putting on a show for others. Finally, I'd say that if a lot of stage cards come up in a reading, it means that person is extremely fake, or else not being true to themselves. Hi Night Shade, Thank you for your post,the interpretations on the "stage cards" are really imaginative. Some made me laugh. I particularly like the 8 & the 4 of pentacles. The 8 of pentacles person you spk of seem to be very common, but the best one is 2 of swords...how very perceptive of you Night Shade. I often think when we meet people we see the mask, a tiny sliver of the person, the rest is guarded & the real self is often the opposite of the facade they give out. I love the bit you say about the blindfolded eyes and the expose...it's so true, i see it every saturday night with the testosterone fueled-up "lads" giving it the big "I am", but when you look in their eyes they're just frightened little boys looking for mummy....not all of them a few are actually mental, but again that's given away by their crazy eyes! Your 7 of swords is a good one too, i often think he's taking back what's his, maybe like karma, a pay back for what's stolen, and some form of humiliation as he's doing it right in their camp under their noses. I really like your 5/swords too, again we meet this character all the time in real life everywhere where someone's got a little power, from the shop floor to the House of Commons I've just thought of quite a funny one that's quite avant-garde. You know transgendering's quite big at the moment...well in the 2 of cups they look exactly identical apart from their dress, this is him changing into her , or between two worlds (it is a 2 after all) and glimpsing the true self for the first time after years of repression & feeling fantastic with the liberation of it all. Actually,i was just considering that Waite would be turning in his grave, but then i thought about Carl Jung's anima that is said to be the unconscious feminine side of a man,and animus is the masculine unconscious side of a woman...so maybe this is not too far out after all ! I know this all looks like levity, but it's actually a good exercise in interpretive imaging of the cards. It's also good for understanding psychology and for self-reflection, as if we're truly honest we're all up on that stage, we are all guilty of the Freudian "projection". I hate hypocrisy, but recently i've understood why...because if i'm truly honest i'm a massive hypocrite & that it why i hate it so much...as painful as it is to be honest with myself sometimes. The first rule of any spiritual quest is forget everything you've learnt about life & yourself, it's all false, it's all staged managed by our ego's and society. There was a real synchronicity between some of the things that Jung and Waite wrote at the same point in time (independently of each other) . Mary Greer has picked up on this and she mentions it in her webinar about the Jungian approach to tarot: https://globalspiritualstudies.com/product/a-jungian-approach-to-tarot/ She has also written some blog posts on this topic, so that might be worth checking out first (since the webinar isn't free). Another thing that you may find interesting as you continue down this rabbit hole of the RWS tarot, is Mary Greers work on how Waite incorporated Grail Myths in the minors of the RWS deck. Waite wrote a book on the Holy Grail roughly in the same time period as he worked with Pamela to design this tarot, and he did also state in his other book that he believed that The Grail Myths had been re-discovered in Tarot... I'm just gonna leave that link as well, so you can put it down for future reference if you feel like it ;) https://globalspiritualstudies.com/product/secrets-and-sources-of-the-rider-waite-smith-minor-arcana/ And here is an old post by her over at AT that also goes in to this topic: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=106756 (By the way, sorry for going off topic, I'm gonna pull myself back again now ;D )
Cookie Posted October 19, 2018 Author Posted October 19, 2018 Thank you for that, Raggydoll. I'm sure i'll read them with great interest. I am indeed in the rabbit-hole that just keeps on giving!
Raggydoll Posted October 19, 2018 Posted October 19, 2018 Thank you for that, Raggydoll. I'm sure i'll read them with great interest. I am indeed in the rabbit-hole that just keeps on giving! I believe you’ve just entered the Ace of Pentacles garden, and now great things await you ;)
Guest Night Shade Posted October 19, 2018 Posted October 19, 2018 I know this all looks like levity, but it's actually a good exercise in interpretive imaging of the cards. I didn't think of this as levity at all, actually. This was the first time in a long while that I really thought about the cards. That's why I appreciate your topics - they make me think, and stretch my brain.
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