Wands/Fire, Swords/Air or vice versa?

[Guest Night Shade]

Hello everyone

 

I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the debate about which elements are associated with the suits of Wands and Swords.  Wands/Fire, Swords/Air makes sense to me, since Wands are all about passion and action, while Swords are more about thought and intellect.  I've heard people argue for the opposite associations, however.  I'd love to hear your opinions.

[RavenOfSummer]

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Night Shade! Funnily enough, Googling around to find thoughts on this very topic was how I found the old Aeclectic Tarot forum, which introduced me to the whole wonderful world of tarot forums that I continue to be so grateful to have in my life  <3

 

Onto your question...right around the time I was starting to look at seriously studying tarot, I was taking a course with a local group on Wicca. This group is part of a particular tradition of witchcraft, and when we studied the elements they presented this tradition's view of elemental associations, which for them is Swords=Fire, Wands=Air. This association made sense to me. I associated swords with strong energy, charging forth, that kind of thing, which intuitively seems fiery to me. Wands I thought of as something you draw through the air to gather power. That was just my personal way of seeing things. The leader of this local group quoted a well-known occultist, Raven Grimassi, for his reason, so I'll quote that here:

 

"Some people ask me why I associate the wand with air instead of fire. There are two core reasons. One is that I feel that a ritual tool should not be something that can be destroyed by the element it represents. Put a wand in fire and it burns to ash.

 

The second reason, and more importantly, is its intimate air association. Trees (from which wands are made) 'breathe' in carbon dioxide and 'exhale' oxygen. So they make the very air we need for life!"

 

So this was my introduction to the tools/suits and their elements. Needless to say, when I started reading tarot books and most had the opposite association, it was hard for me to wrap my head around! I considered whether I should seek out and work with a deck that specifically held the Swords=Fire, Wands=Air association. (There is a list of such decks here at Aeclectic.) However, since the overwhelming majority of materials I found on tarot had the Swords=Air, Wands=Fire association, I decided to try to just keep at it and eventually I worked with it so much that I stopped noticing how different this was from what I had first learned. In discussing cards these days I usually use the more common associations, especially since most of the decks I work with were designed with those associations, but to this day the Swords=Fire, Wands=Air still is more intuitive to me, although I can understand the reasonings each way.

 

Interestingly, for me the the flipping of the elemental associations DOES NOT change the way I think of the parts of the self. In other words, I see Swords associated with the mind/mental realm, whether they are fire or air, and I see Wands associated with the spirit/spiritual realm, whether they are air or fire. (Cups of course are heart/emotional realm and Pentacles are body/physical realm.) So the fact that those, to my intuitive way of seeing, remain the same, makes it easier for me to work with either elemental concept.

[Cookie]

Hello everyone

 

I was just wondering what everyone thinks about the debate about which elements are associated with the suits of Wands and Swords.  Wands/Fire, Swords/Air makes sense to me, since Wands are all about passion and action, while Swords are more about thought and intellect.  I've heard people argue for the opposite associations, however.  I'd love to hear your opinions.

 

Hi Night Shade,

 

This wands/swords and the elements tbh is a tower of babel for me.  I just can't make up my mind.  when i read arguments for and against (and RavenOfSummer made some very good points) my mind just gets spun out.  It's like a court case where you listen to the brilliant argument for the prosecution and you think one way then the defense wades in and you think the other.

 

I suspect, although this is just a my opinion, that the elements overlap and they are ruled by both or at least very influenced by both.  If you make a sword you need fire to forge the metal lit by wood (wands) and you need air to get the fire white hot; but you also need water to quench the metal at the desired time and you need earth as the core element where we get the metal from in the first place. 

For Wands you need fire (usually caused by the sun or a lightening strike...core spiritual element as the ancients saw it) to burn the brush so new seeds could grow, you need the earth for nutrition, water to quench the earth so the roots will grow, and the air for what Raven said about "breathing" and taking in carbon dioxide & breathing out oxygen.  I guess what i'm trying to say or have ended up saying is that the suits are influenced by all the elements in some form or other the other...perhaps some more, some less. 

[Guest Night Shade]

"Some people ask me why I associate the wand with air instead of fire. There are two core reasons. One is that I feel that a ritual tool should not be something that can be destroyed by the element it represents. Put a wand in fire and it burns to ash.

 

The second reason, and more importantly, is its intimate air association. Trees (from which wands are made) 'breathe' in carbon dioxide and 'exhale' oxygen. So they make the very air we need for life!"

 

I've never heard this argument before, and it makes a lot of sense, especially the part about how a tool shouldn't be able to be destroyed by it's element.  I've heard of Raven Grimassi, but I've never read his books -  maybe now I will.

[Guest Night Shade]

This wands/swords and the elements tbh is a tower of babel for me.  I just can't make up my mind.  when i read arguments for and against (and RavenOfSummer made some very good points) my mind just gets spun out.  It's like a court case where you listen to the brilliant argument for the prosecution and you think one way then the defense wades in and you think the other.

 

I know what you mean!  You make a good point when you say that the elements overlap.  Really, nothing is made up of just one kind of energy.

[Guest libra]

I've always just kinda rolled with the prevailing Swords/Air & Wands /Fire associations because most decks portray them that way and trying to force something else just didn't make sense to me.

 

I'm curious about where everyone stands in regards to the Court's and their elements! I think Queen being Water is the only consistent association I've seen... Pages are Earth in my books, Knights are the passionate Fire and Kings are Air.

[Jewel]

Elements! one of my favorite tarot topics  ;D

 

I am more comfortable with air/swords because words and thoughts can be very sharp, and wands/fire works for me because passion and enthusiasm can burn you. But I totally understand the fire/swords association, I mean after all swords are forged in fire, and wands/air because well trees sway in the wind.  But I learned with swords/air and wands/fire and it is what I am most comfortable with.  It is probably one of the reasons I do not work much with Lisa Hunt's beautiful decks, because the elemental correspondence just feels a little awkward for me.

 

I'm curious about where everyone stands in regards to the Court's and their elements! I think Queen being Water is the only consistent association I've seen... Pages are Earth in my books, Knights are the passionate Fire and Kings are Air.

Oh this is another great topic and my answer to this is that it depends what system I am working with.  If I am working with a RWS based deck then I use the following:

 

Kings = Air

Queens = Water

Knights = Fire

Pages = Earth

 

I like this structure because I see more maturity and less impulsivity in the element of Air which to me is more kingly, while the brashness of the knights to me goes very well with fire. Here we have Air/Water which are neutral element to each other, so can be a harmonious partnership.  Air is active and Water is passive so you still have duality it is just more subtle and agreeable.  It is also a balance of intellect and emotions.

 

If I am working with a Thoth based deck, the Knights take the place of Kings in ranking but retain their element of Fire, and the Kings are demoted to Prince and retain the element of Air.  This switch was done based on elements anyways as it was seen that Knights/fire and Queens/water would be the natural consorts and fits the whole opposites attract, and extreme dualities in nature.  Again, fire is active and water is passive, but there is a lot more energy in this combination in my opinion and little to no subtlety.

[Tanawylfen]

I'm most definitely an Airy Wander/Fiery Sworder these days, and agree with all the points that RavenOfSummer makes, and which I could not improve upon. It does somewhat restrict my deck choice, but many decks still fit the orientation (I love historical decks which allow for this very well) and some are borderline enough that they can be still be used. It does mean that my deck collection doesn't end up being something of a runaway train lol! I've even ended up slightly altering artwork on decks I loved very much so that they would fit this paradigm (eg my Gran Tarot Esoterico, which has distinctly fiery wands, and which I altered to show either greenery or clouds.)

[Rose Lalonde]

I enjoy the Golden Dawn's associated astrology that influenced Waite's meanings for the RWS and Crowley's for the Thoth.

 

The Wands got the fire signs; for example, the 2, 3 and 4 of Wands were given the three decans of the cardinal Fire sign = Aries (also associated with the Emperor).

 

The 2, 3, and 4 of Swords were given the three decans of the cardinal Air sign = Libra (also associated with Justice).

 

For me, if I swapped suit elements, I'd feel like I needed to swap the signs to match, so it's not going to happen. There's balance going on in the crossed swords of the 2 of Swords that's very Libra to me. I don't associate the stillness and blindfold with Aries, but I do associate fiery Aries with the guy holding a globe on the 2 of Wands.

 

Of course not everyone is into the GD merging astrology with tarot, and I understand why others have valid reasons for choosing to go with Wands=Air. I'm 100% about people reading in ways that work best for them.

[Wanderer]

I'm curious about something that's probably a bit daft... but does the elemental association really matter, and if so, when?

 

Now, I know I'm a philistine in a lot of ways, not using astological connections and so on, but to me the meanings of the suits are best described as related to thoughts, passions, emotions, and so on. Adding an elemental connection doesn't actually enhance it for me, although individual cards obviously have particular meanings that are more rooted, or more emotional (etc.) than others. I often see that some readings focus more on one theme than others, of course... but I rarely feel the need to relate this to elements, even though the symbolism is everywhere. So the question is, how does your elemental association change the meaning of the cards, if swords still represent the intellect, and so on?

 

I do appreciate that many people use a lot of deep correspondences, but is this only an academic exercise for some of you? Or is it just me?  :P

[Tanawylfen]

So the question is, how does your elemental association change the meaning of the cards, if swords still represent the intellect, and so on?

 

I do appreciate that many people use a lot of deep correspondences, but is this only an academic exercise for some of you? Or is it just me?  :P

 

You pose a good question Wanderer, and switching the associated Elements has altered the manner in which I interpret the cards when I come to think about it. Swords are not related to Intellect primarily for me but the Will and its driving force to triumph over adversity. It is a suit of transformation therefor in my own system. The Wands are a suit of thought and inspiration. I've particularly altered the manner in which I interpret the aces and the courts. For example, the King of Swords is for me a bold, determined, decisive character who has mastered the feistiness expressed by the Knight. He is "master of the inner flame" in that regard and as such is an excellent strategist, a four star general type of guy whom you might want to consult or have on your side, but you wouldn't want to cross him. The Queen of that suit similarly takes on a fiery aspect but more in terms of feistiness related to insight and sagacity - she's been around the block and worn many t-shirts, and the benefits of her wealth of experience mean that, like an expert fire scryer, little gets past her keen eye! (and of course she has a sharp tongue to match!) The aces I interpret as follows - swords = new courage, challenge, whilst the ace of wands = new ideas,inspiration. I don't really link the courts to astrological signs as I find this too restrictive since any individual might express the characteristics of each at some time or other (I tend to consider them as follows in their individual suit - page=child/student, knight=active seeker, queen=sage/knower, king=master). The cups and coins are unaffected in my system of interpretation, but it did mean that I had to cross some decks off my wishlist and give others away because the symbolism clashed (it's saved me some money thought lol!)

 

[Wanderer]

Sorry for the delay, Tanawylfen[/member]  - busy weekend!

 

Thanks very much for these thoughts... it's something that has been genuinely baffling me, as the more I think about it, the less significant it seems.  I think it's that restrictiveness that you mention that worries me most: each card to me contains numerous possible facets, and binding a stack of correspondences to any card seems artificially limiting...

 

However, the rest of your reply is fascinating, and reiterates something I'm starting to feel very strongly: that with experience we build the meanings of the cards for ourselves. The standard meanings are guidelines, which we either reinforce or drift away from. When you switch the elemental connotations of the suits, this does have implications for the meanings of the cards in your readings... but not for anyone else. We may see a variation that we prefer, or which fits with the interpretative framework that we've already developed, and that's fine.

 

So to answer the original question: in my opinion, it doesn't matter. Go with what fits into your personal understanding of the cards, or don't use the elemental associations at all. It's all part of developing your own sphere of meaning, and it's that which is used when you're drawing the cards.

[Jewel]

Wanderer[/member] I really enjoyed your posts and questions.  To be honest the elemental correspondences only matter to those of us who like them.  A conclusion you reached in your last post  :biggrin:.  They are like any other esoteric system we want to use in conjunction with tarot, optional and by personal preference.  I am very elementally inclined, always have been, so I apply them to Tarot when appropriate in a reading, especially in identifying patterns and their effects on the spread.  Sometimes I use them in direct relation to individual cards, depends on the question, spread position, etc.  It is definitely what helped me really wrap my head around the court cards.  But I do not believe readers have to use any esoteric system to be good readers, we use what works for us  :)

 

And yes, as we grow as readers we expand and sometimes deviate from basic meanings.  Basic meanings are just the spring board, and as cards are affected by the question, spread position, and influence of other cards in the spread the meanings are also influenced.

[Wanderer]

Wanderer[/member] I really enjoyed your posts and questions.  To be honest the elemental correspondences only matter to those of us who like them.  A conclusion you reached in your last post  :biggrin:.  They are like any other esoteric system we want to use in conjunction with tarot, optional and by personal preference.  I am very elementally inclined, always have been, so I apply them to Tarot when appropriate in a reading, especially in identifying patterns and their effects on the spread.  Sometimes I use them in direct relation to individual cards, depends on the question, spread position, etc.  It is definitely what helped me really wrap my head around the court cards.  But I do not believe readers have to use any esoteric system to be good readers, we use what works for us  :)

 

And yes, as we grow as readers we expand and sometimes deviate from basic meanings.  Basic meanings are just the spring board, and as cards are affected by the question, spread position, and influence of other cards in the spread the meanings are also influenced.

 

Thanks for that, Jewel[/member] - it all makes perfect sense. And given all the variation in techniques, approaches and philosophies, it sometimes amazes me that any two readers agree on anything at all... but all roads lead to somewhere, in the end.  ;)

[Jewel]

Thanks for that, Jewel[/member] - it all makes perfect sense. And given all the variation in techniques, approaches and philosophies, it sometimes amazes me that any two readers agree on anything at all... but all roads lead to somewhere, in the end.  ;)

And a lot of times we don't!  :biggrin:  Just travel the road you wish to travel and enjoy the journey, in the end that is what matters most ... that it is fulfilling to you.

[lilliangrey]

On 10/19/2018 at 10:26 AM, RavenOfSummer said:

Thanks for bringing up this topic, Night Shade! Funnily enough, Googling around to find thoughts on this very topic was how I found the old Aeclectic Tarot forum, which introduced me to the whole wonderful world of tarot forums that I continue to be so grateful to have in my life  ❤️

 

Onto your question...right around the time I was starting to look at seriously studying tarot, I was taking a course with a local group on Wicca. This group is part of a particular tradition of witchcraft, and when we studied the elements they presented this tradition's view of elemental associations, which for them is Swords=Fire, Wands=Air. This association made sense to me. I associated swords with strong energy, charging forth, that kind of thing, which intuitively seems fiery to me. Wands I thought of as something you draw through the air to gather power. That was just my personal way of seeing things. The leader of this local group quoted a well-known occultist, Raven Grimassi, for his reason, so I'll quote that here:

 

"Some people ask me why I associate the wand with air instead of fire. There are two core reasons. One is that I feel that a ritual tool should not be something that can be destroyed by the element it represents. Put a wand in fire and it burns to ash.

 

The second reason, and more importantly, is its intimate air association. Trees (from which wands are made) 'breathe' in carbon dioxide and 'exhale' oxygen. So they make the very air we need for life!"

 

So this was my introduction to the tools/suits and their elements. Needless to say, when I started reading tarot books and most had the opposite association, it was hard for me to wrap my head around! I considered whether I should seek out and work with a deck that specifically held the Swords=Fire, Wands=Air association. (There is a list of such decks here at Aeclectic.) However, since the overwhelming majority of materials I found on tarot had the Swords=Air, Wands=Fire association, I decided to try to just keep at it and eventually I worked with it so much that I stopped noticing how different this was from what I had first learned. In discussing cards these days I usually use the more common associations, especially since most of the decks I work with were designed with those associations, but to this day the Swords=Fire, Wands=Air still is more intuitive to me, although I can understand the reasonings each way.

 

Interestingly, for me the the flipping of the elemental associations DOES NOT change the way I think of the parts of the self. In other words, I see Swords associated with the mind/mental realm, whether they are fire or air, and I see Wands associated with the spirit/spiritual realm, whether they are air or fire. (Cups of course are heart/emotional realm and Pentacles are body/physical realm.) So the fact that those, to my intuitive way of seeing, remain the same, makes it easier for me to work with either elemental concept.

This is one of those things I realized I'd forgotten when I dusted off my cards after years of them sitting in a box! Was there an actual proper association for wands and swords, and what happened if I got it "wrong?" Would that make me a lousy interpreter? I panicked at first, then I searched online and, good goddess, there's a lot of conflicting opinions on how this works. This is actually how I came about this forum. I realize this is an old post, but it resurrected a familiar problem for me. I meditated on it and I have my answer now, so I thought I'd share my perspective in case it helps someone else.

I personally associate wands with air and swords with fire. The reason being, I think of what one does with a wand - directs the energy through air. And when I think of swords, I immediately get a visual of a blacksmith pounding metal and tiny fire sparks flying everywhere! So to me that makes the most sense. However, I'm a rather pragmatic reader, and therefore often fall back to the words of my teachers:

"Each must find their own path. Walk the one best for you."

To summarize: I do not believe there is a hard rule. Fire/swords, air/wands works best for me. It's a language I speak and understand intuitively. So that is how I will continue to communicate with and interpret my cards. But for others it may be the other way around. How does it feel for you? If you said fire/swords and air/wands, you'd be right. If you said air/swords and fire/wands, you'd also be right.

Btw, one deck that does associate wands with air and swords with fire is the Hudes Tarot. I believe it's out of print now, but I have seen it on Amazon and you may be able to find it on ebay. No matter how many other decks I've experimented with, this is the one I keep returning to.

[katrinka]

I just use the associations for whatever system I'm using. With Golden Dawn decks, Swords are air. For Picard based decks, Swords are water. When in Rome, etc. 😉

[Jewel]

On 10/18/2021 at 2:28 AM, katrinka said:

I just use the associations for whatever system I'm using. With Golden Dawn decks, Swords are air. For Picard based decks, Swords are water. When in Rome, etc. 😉

So do I.  But I find that I gravitate a lot more to decks that have wands/fire swords/air, it is just more comfortable for me because it is how I learned them, but either way it works.  It really boils down to personal preference.  Same thing with court card elemental associations.  In decks where the Kings are Knights and the Knights are Princes (Thoth, etc) I see that Knight as Fire and the Prince as Air, but when it comes to RWS decks I see the Kings as air and Knights as Fire.  So for me it varies based on the deck and the system, but am more familiar/comfortable with RWS based systems/decks.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Jewel