Showtime at The Tower

[Cookie]

Many times do I see on Tarot social media sites, people saying that their fave card is The Tower, Death, The Devil, Moon reversed etc.  Now, I know that these are fascinating cards, however favourite cards?  And they seem to welcome the appearance in readings of these.

 

The main reasons are that they: ...like a challenge...it's best to embrace the darkness ... it makes you more spiritual etc.  Now i appreciate that these statements are true, but to me these are hard-core cards with tradition & pedigree of hard times to say the least.  And as much as people in the west like to think of themselves as Zen we don't have the philosophy of the Orient: in the west, unless you are highly spiritually evolved, we would find it almost impossible to take cancer with the same acceptance and the same breath as a birth or a wedding etc....as Buddhism is said to teach 

 

The site members, when they see in the future The Moon (rev), Tower and The Devil, seem to have a "bring it on" attitude, or even find it funny.  And I know it is the journey of the cards to learn to embrace these cards, but the people putting this haven't the life nor the tarot experience to be that highly evolved.  Unless you're a necromancer, a lycanthrope, or a Goth with morbid fascination i cannot believe these to be okay cards 

 

In my opinion it is either that so many people use the cards now and abuse them too much (something we're prob all guilty of at one point or another) that the "collective" meaning of these cards has diluted & weakened somewhat; Or that when we use the cards too much they stop working for us personally.

 

I believe it to be somewhere between the two

 

What are people's views on this?  Would be very interested 

 

[Guest libra]

The Tower is right up there as one of my favourite cards, and I consider myself pretty well versed in life experience and tarot experience. Maybe not "highly evolved", but honestly most of the "highly evolved" ego-death-super-zen hippies I know (and lordy do I know a lot of them) are really kinda insufferable.

 

One aspect that is pretty much personal to me, as far as I can tell, is that I've had a pretty rough life. I've gotten used to "being strong", of needing to power through crap and not let it be seen that I'm suffering. I get a dark card like The Tower or the 3 of Swords or Death and it's like... Permission. Permission to recognize that things are bloody hard, things are crap. Sometimes I'm not okay and things are not okay and pulling these cards tells me that THAT is okay. When you're used to always putting on a facade that things are great, it can be so cathartic to just see that it is all coming down and it's not all just in my head.

 

And then The Tower in specific. The sweet chaos of The Tower. In my personal readings, The Tower has started to talk about my own internal barriers. It's usually talking about how I walled myself in to keep myself safe... But I outgrew those walls, and now I'm stuck inside, can't grow, can't connect with people. The Tower is that terrifying and liberating breaking point. It doesn't come up often for me, but when it does, you bet I'm saying "bring it on." You can also bet that I'm crying,and that I'm just waiting for The Star that follows, but also, yes there is a part of me that's happy that those walls are coming down.

 

Here's a poem I wrote about that, The Devil-the Tower-the Star sequence.

 

Sweet child,

You escaped the chains of the Devil

only to build up walls of your own.

From the darkest pit you climbed

Up and up and up.

 

But don’t you see?

It’s as lonely and cold confined at the top

As it was to be trapped at the bottom.

You only wanted to see the stars once more

But you built yourself into a lightning rod.

 

Never fear, Sweet Child.

Nature abhors a straight line.

She will tear your walls down for you.

She will leave you naked and alone.

 

She will leave you free.

 

I dunno. Maybe you'll consider this diluting the collective meanings or something. But it's a really intense experience, that's for sure, I know I won't enjoy it. But I welcome it, when it comes.

[DanielJUK]

People in the world are diverse, they have different backgrounds and views and tastes, if we asked everyone here what their favourite card was, some people may pick those cards! I don't think people pick them because of some fault or weirdness about themselves but because they are drawn to it or can see it in part of themselves.

 

I do believe that every card has a positive and negative and maybe neutral message. Those cards also have a positive and maybe that is what they are drawn to. The Tower can represent the most amazing sex but also shocks and surprises which make changes to our lives. Like the musician who wins a talent show to become a superstar, that is a Tower moment. In my own life, I was stuck in a Hanged Man type situation for 2 years, the frustration and feeling trapped was just awful, I would pick a Tower moment to make changes over that any day! Like Sheryl Crow said in her song by the same title, "A Change Would Do You Good".

 

The other cards.... The Devil can be a fantastically interesting connection between two people, maybe just sexual, maybe bondage and domination, one is submissive and the other is the dominator. It's a great card for expressing your sexuality and desires and has positives about the obsessive part of this card is great for ambition and desire, that might drive someone to success. The Moon rx represents so many artists and musicians, they produce their best creative expression when influenced by the Moon. Producing this artistic expression from their nightmares or dreams or a madness but it might be some of their best work. Some artists have produced amazing things on drugs or in a trance, that is represented by this card. Both ways up on the Moon is great for psychic and creative inspiration, it does have some positives.

 

There is a card that represents parts of each of us, I couldn't judge someone for picking those cards because I think tarot is more complex than that, it's not black and white. Every card represents us at a certain time, so they might find them their favourite cards.

[Cookie]

Hi yes, thank you for your answers.  Perhaps i didn't explain myself well enough, but these are student sites, they are young and have little experience of life and esp the cards.  And i'm not being anti-youth, i'm young myself 

 

People on this TT&M are more experience in life and the cards.  They've experienced trauma, the shadow selves, etc, to "welcome" potentially traumatic cards, you have to be experienced in life, have a certain level of emotional and reflective understanding of themselves, and at 18, 19, 20, 21, very few, if any, have i believe.

 

These people haven't had your 2 years stuck in The Hanged Man or the 3 of swords/tower "permission".

 

You are both answering from your own experience... that wasn't my question   

 

And DanielJUK[/member] : I understand the bondage/sexual side to The Devil, but in my experience young people who are into bondage/domination have been sexually abused, (100% of the people i know into this have been). this is not a good card to have when young (or it's not meant to be).  They think they're enjoying it but in fact it is just a tool of self-abuse and they're being sexually abused/manipulated once more.  Again, i believe this is for people who are older and understand themselves, their emotions and their sexuality more.  I understand the complexities of the cards and know they are not B&W.

 

And libra[/member] ... the zen-death-hippie lot you are talking about are probably not highly spiritually evolved (at least not the ones i'm talking about), they are pseudo-spiritual & i met plenty of those in my hometown as i grew up.

 

Thank you for your input           

[Guest libra]

Ok so if you're not looking for our - our, being people who get these cards - what are you looking for exactly? I'm not getting it.

 

Trust me, the stuff that made me understand The Tower, the 3 of Swords, Death, all happened well before 18.  I don't feel like you're giving youth enough credit for their experiences; we haven't all been sheltered, growing up under the 10 of Cups. And even if you have, I totally get how you'd be excited to see a "scary" card. Even the happy ones get monotonous when that's all you experience. Craving the drama of other cards is completely a valid point of view.

 

I think I need more clarification on what you wanted from this thread, if not the point of view from people who see the cards in the way you are discussing...

[Grandma]

Hi Cookie -

 

This thread first caught my attention after the second reply.  I came back a while later to post my own comment when I saw your Reply #3 and I'm a little confused.

 

I was also going to answer from my own experience, but apparently you are hoping for something else.  I'm sorry to be obtuse, but I guess I'm not sure what your exact question is. 

 

You wrote

 

"In my opinion it is either that so many people use the cards now and abuse them too much (something we're prob all guilty of at one point or another) that the "collective" meaning of these cards has diluted & weakened somewhat; Or that when we use the cards too much they stop working for us personally.

 

I believe it to be somewhere between the two

 

What are people's views on this?  Would be very interested"

 

But then I get the impression you are asking about the use of tarot by young people with scant life experience.  I have been following you on various threads and admire your often unique perspective and keen insight.  I might want to answer your question once I understand it.

 

And please don't think I'm criticizing you.  I'm sure the confusion is on my end, not yours, but please help me out.

 

Love, Grandma 

[Grandma]

Trust me, the stuff that made me understand The Tower, the 3 of Swords, Death, all happened well before 18.  I don't feel like you're giving youth enough credit for their experiences; we haven't all been sheltered, growing up under the 10 of Cups.

 

Amen.

[Cookie]

Ok so if you're not looking for our - our, being people who get these cards - what are you looking for exactly? I'm not getting it.

 

Trust me, the stuff that made me understand The Tower, the 3 of Swords, Death, all happened well before 18.  I don't feel like you're giving youth enough credit for their experiences; we haven't all been sheltered, growing up under the 10 of Cups. And even if you have, I totally get how you'd be excited to see a "scary" card. Even the happy ones get monotonous when that's all you experience. Craving the drama of other cards is completely a valid point of view.

 

I think I need more clarification on what you wanted from this thread, if not the point of view from people who see the cards in the way you are discussing...

 

I'm not doubting that you had these exp before 18, but then if the Tower, 3/swords, death were your "admired" cards then, and you understood yourself at this age then i'd very very surprised, in fact i'd say you're not being true to yourself.  I'm fully aware that most trauma happens when young (and that's exactly my point) a young person that has trauma shouldn't embrace these cards.  It should put trepidation and fear into them, otherwise the cards obviously aren't working. I can't really put it clearer than that.

 

And if you have to answer please don't use this patronising tone with me ... it's really annoying

[Guest Night Shade]

Hi, Cookie

 

I have no idea if I'm responding properly to what you're asking or not, but I'll just give you my opinions of these cards.

 

I don't know if this is enough to make these anyone's favorite cards, but for someone who's in a horrible situation, the transforming powers of Death and The Tower could bring welcome relief.  Maybe someone whose experienced the total breakdown and rebirth (for the better, in their case) would come to welcome these cards when they appear.

 

As for the Moon reversed, perhaps fans of this card see it as finally seeing clearly, or finally coming to their senses.  Someone who had been living a totally messed-up life, then woke-up and got their act together, may appreciate the message of this card, and embrace it as their mantra.  Or, maybe they see it as an end to all the lies and illusions they've been living under, or as rejecting the lies and illusions that others have been feeding them.

 

As for the Devil, well, if you look at the Devil as Lucifer the light-bringer, it kind of makes sense.  It could also, as you said, represent to them embracing the darkness, or at least the dark side of themselves.  Maybe this is a stretch, but you could also kind of see it as breaking free of the constraints that your religion or society places on you.  Not in a bad or evil way, just in terms of being yourself, rather than how others say you should be. (for example, some people think that Tarot is "of the Devil" - but we know better, and practice it anyway).

 

I hope this answered your question a bit.

[Grandma]

 

I don't know if this is enough to make these anyone's favorite cards, but for someone who's in a horrible situation, the transforming powers of Death and The Tower could bring welcome relief.  Maybe someone whose experienced the total breakdown and rebirth (for the better, in their case) would come to welcome these cards when they appear.

 

As for the Moon reversed, perhaps fans of this card see it as finally seeing clearly, or finally coming to their senses.  Someone who had been living a totally messed-up life, then woke-up and got their act together, may appreciate the message of this card, and embrace it as their mantra.  Or, maybe they see it as an end to all the lies and illusions they've been living under, or as rejecting the lies and illusions that others have been feeding them.

 

I love this...the Tower and Death are not my favorite cards, but I have always seen them as positive and this explains it.

 

And while I don't use reversals, I used to dread the Moon until I found out it is one of my birth cards and read the explanation at Labyrinthos.  While your interpretation is a little different, it fits in with and strengthens my appreciation of this card.

 

I don't know if you answered Cookie's question either, but you sure helped me!

 

 

[Guest Night Shade]

Or that when we use the cards too much they stop working for us personally.

 

Actually, I think that when we use the cards constantly, they start to take on our own personal meanings.  Which isn't to say that they stop working for us, it's just that they've become more of a personal guidebook, tailored to our individual needs and beliefs.  So maybe people are drawn to these particular cards because their personal meanings for them are more positive and supportive.

[Guest Night Shade]

I love this...the Tower and Death are not my favorite cards, but I have always seen them as positive and this explains it.

 

And while I don't use reversals, I used to dread the Moon until I found out it is one of my birth cards and read the explanation at Labyrinthos.  While your interpretation is a little different, it fits in with and strengthens my appreciation of this card.

 

I don't know if you answered Cookie's question either, but you sure helped me!

 

I'm glad this helped you, Grandma. :) The Moon is one of my birth cards too, and I've always been fond of it (maybe because it's a nighttime card, and I've always loved the night).

[Esk]

  Maybe this is a stretch, but you could also kind of see it as breaking free of the constraints that your religion or society places on you.  Not in a bad or evil way, just in terms of being yourself, rather than how others say you should be. (for example, some people think that Tarot is "of the Devil" - but we know better, and practice it anyway).

 

 

In a past reading I had this card and its meaning was exactly what you describe : breaking free from "traditional" expectation, from the norm, finally embracing what I think and what I want to do, even if it's not what others expected of me.

I also agree with Daniel about the sexual aspect of this card. It can be a great and animal attraction and great sex  ;) 

 

Cookie, I'm going to try to answer to your question. Maybe some people associate these cards with an important event of their life.

For example, 3 years ago i had the Tower in a love reading. Few weeks later I met a man I completely fell in love with and who has changed my life in many many ways and helped me changed my life. A real tower experience in the sense that he shook my life up completely, unexpectedely and violently. Of course there was wonderful but also hurtful things in this story. Now every time I see the Tower I always have a sweet feeling whatever the meaning is. That said, I won't say this is my favorite card. But maybe some people can get stuck with a good meaning because of a good experience with a card.

 

Another idea is that there may be a tendency to soften the meaning of "bad" cards and the meanings of readings more generally. I've seen some people trying to always find a good interpretation for every card and every situation and who tend to sugar coat their readings. I guess a lot of people look for reassurance in tarot. And I can't blame them, that's the main reason I begin learning tarot in the first place  ;)

 

That's the ideas that came to my mind, but of course I can't be sure of wat's the point of view of the people you're talking about

I hope I've answer, at least partially, your question.

[Esk]

I love this...the Tower and Death are not my favorite cards, but I have always seen them as positive and this explains it.

 

And while I don't use reversals, I used to dread the Moon until I found out it is one of my birth cards and read the explanation at Labyrinthos.  While your interpretation is a little different, it fits in with and strengthens my appreciation of this card.

 

I don't know if you answered Cookie's question either, but you sure helped me!

 

I'm glad this helped you, Grandma. :) The Moon is one of my birth cards too, and I've always been fond of it (maybe because it's a nighttime card, and I've always loved the night).

 

I've recently discovered this is one of my birth card too. Actually I can understand why people like it. It is attracting and mysterious, like the real Moon ;). And also illustrator often do beautiful images of this card  ;D. But I admit this is a card that is still mysterious to me and I have to study it more.

[Guest libra]

Ok so if you're not looking for our - our, being people who get these cards - what are you looking for exactly? I'm not getting it.

 

Trust me, the stuff that made me understand The Tower, the 3 of Swords, Death, all happened well before 18.  I don't feel like you're giving youth enough credit for their experiences; we haven't all been sheltered, growing up under the 10 of Cups. And even if you have, I totally get how you'd be excited to see a "scary" card. Even the happy ones get monotonous when that's all you experience. Craving the drama of other cards is completely a valid point of view.

 

I think I need more clarification on what you wanted from this thread, if not the point of view from people who see the cards in the way you are discussing...

 

I'm not doubting that you had these exp before 18, but then if the Tower, 3/swords, death were your "admired" cards then, and you understood yourself at this age then i'd very very surprised, in fact i'd say you're not being true to yourself.  I'm fully aware that most trauma happens when young (and that's exactly my point) a young person that has trauma shouldn't embrace these cards.  It should put trepidation and fear into them, otherwise the cards obviously aren't working. I can't really put it clearer than that.

 

And if you have to answer please don't use this patronising tone with me ... it's really annoying

 

I don't consider it my responsibility to judge whether the cards are "working" or not. If they give someone a sense of peace, or insight or even simply entertainment, then that's fantastic - whether I agree with their understanding of the cards or not.

 

Much as I love the concept of this thread and the ideas that people are sharing, I think it's time for me to bow out. I'm clearly not giving the answer you want.

[Raggydoll]

Interesting topic  :) I get that there is a bit of confusion here as to what the exact question is, and clearly this is a recipe for misunderstanding. I honestly don’t think that anyone meant to sound patronizing to you Cookie[/member], it is just sometimes hard to convey the correct mood and tone when we are limited to written words. The internet is tricky like that  :)

 

I think everyone has brought up interesting points, and while I definitely can see how different backgrounds and levels of experience/maturity will affect a persons understanding of certain cards, I personally still think that ‘wisdom’ is very much present in every stage of life - it just takes on different forms (I am not saying that you claimed the opposite or anything like that Cookie, I’m just speaking generally while contemplating this intriguing topic).

 

I personally feel that I have formed a special bond with my card and that we communicate in ways that are very much outside the (tarot) box  ;). I do not think that I have twisted the meanings of certain cards nor do I think that they have stopped working for me, it’s just like we (me and my decks) have reached a new level in our friendship so that our dialogues have changed and that we know each other (that we ‘finish each other’s sentences’ and all that jazz  8) ). But I get that not everyone will have this same experience - and I’m sure that a lot of people would even think that what I am describing is silly or even impossible. That’s fine. The important thing is that we remain respectful of each other. We are all different and everyone’s experiences, feelings and opinions are valid. And everyone is appreciated for their uniqueness here. That’s what makes this place so special and colorful I think  <3

[Raggydoll]

Ok so if you're not looking for our - our, being people who get these cards - what are you looking for exactly? I'm not getting it.

 

Trust me, the stuff that made me understand The Tower, the 3 of Swords, Death, all happened well before 18.  I don't feel like you're giving youth enough credit for their experiences; we haven't all been sheltered, growing up under the 10 of Cups. And even if you have, I totally get how you'd be excited to see a "scary" card. Even the happy ones get monotonous when that's all you experience. Craving the drama of other cards is completely a valid point of view.

 

I think I need more clarification on what you wanted from this thread, if not the point of view from people who see the cards in the way you are discussing...

 

I'm not doubting that you had these exp before 18, but then if the Tower, 3/swords, death were your "admired" cards then, and you understood yourself at this age then i'd very very surprised, in fact i'd say you're not being true to yourself.  I'm fully aware that most trauma happens when young (and that's exactly my point) a young person that has trauma shouldn't embrace these cards.  It should put trepidation and fear into them, otherwise the cards obviously aren't working. I can't really put it clearer than that.

 

And if you have to answer please don't use this patronising tone with me ... it's really annoying

 

I don't consider it my responsibility to judge whether the cards are "working" or not. If they give someone a sense of peace, or insight or even simply entertainment, then that's fantastic - whether I agree with their understanding of the cards or not.

 

Much as I love the concept of this thread and the ideas that people are sharing, I think it's time for me to bow out. I'm clearly not giving the answer you want.

 

I respect it if you truly want to bow out, but don’t feel that you need to. Your opinion is appreciated. Things just got a little heated but I feel that it was a genuine misunderstanding. We are all friends here!

[RavenOfSummer]

Wow, this is a fascinating discussion. Really opening up my eyes to different ways of seeing the Tower.

 

Here's a poem I wrote about that, The Devil-the Tower-the Star sequence.

 

Sweet child,

You escaped the chains of the Devil

only to build up walls of your own.

From the darkest pit you climbed

Up and up and up.

 

But don’t you see?

It’s as lonely and cold confined at the top

As it was to be trapped at the bottom.

You only wanted to see the stars once more

But you built yourself into a lightning rod.

 

Never fear, Sweet Child.

Nature abhors a straight line.

She will tear your walls down for you.

She will leave you naked and alone.

 

She will leave you free.

 

I dunno. Maybe you'll consider this diluting the collective meanings or something. But it's a really intense experience, that's for sure, I know I won't enjoy it. But I welcome it, when it comes.

 

This is so beautifully put, libra. The poem brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for sharing it.

 

I agree with the thoughts libra[/member], Night Shade[/member], and Grandma[/member] have shared. Although I wasn't working with tarot at the time, I had a lot of Tower experience before age 18, and I think if I HAD been working with cards and connecting with those meanings and energies coming up, it would have made me feel...understood, perhaps, or less alone. I like what libra said about permission to know and express that everything is not ok. The pressure to pretend everything is all right can have such a detrimental impact.

 

And I also agree with DanielJUK[/member] and Night Shade that the cards develop personal meanings for us as we work with them. The Moon has always been my favorite card (I don't use reversals, so when I say The Moon that encompasses all its aspects), despite many people disliking it. I know you are referring to people who are young and inexperienced, but maybe there is a reason they are drawn to the energy of a card like The Tower- maybe they see a need for it, maybe it has a role to play in their life.

 

It's true also that young people have a need to rebel- in fact I think we all have that need, but often young people more acutely than others. So for example, maybe a young person decides to call themselves a witch and dress all in black and wear black makeup and burn black candles, something like that. And then an older, more experienced person might say that is not what being a witch is about. But personally, I think it's fine if that's what they want to do. They are figuring themselves out, and for now this is expressing something they feel inside of them. Maybe they will grow and mature in their practice, or maybe they will discard the idea of being a witch entirely, or maybe they just like wearing black and wear it for the rest of their lives. I think any of those options are fine. My point is, even if young people are doing something like dressing in black or saying The Tower is their favorite card just to seem edgy and rebellious and dangerous, that doens't mean it's not an important part of their journey to express that. That may be part of how they gain the life experience Cookie was mentioning.

[Grandma]

Although I wasn't working with tarot at the time, I had a lot of Tower experience before age 18, and I think if I HAD been working with cards and connecting with those meanings and energies coming up, it would have made me feel...understood, perhaps, or less alone. I like what libra said about permission to know and express that everything is not ok. The pressure to pretend everything is all right can have such a detrimental impact.

 

Oh RavenOfSummer, this is why I love you so much!

 

And if someone had told me that I probably didn't understand and was not being true to myself I would have felt insulted, offended, and patronized.  More than fifty years later, with enough life experience for two or three unfortunate people under my belt, I think I would have been right to feel that way.  No one but my therapist, someone who is reading for me, or my husband (if I still had one) should presume to be in my head like that.

 

However, as Raggedydoll observed, there are limitations to how we convey the emotional content of what we say in our posts, so I will take it on faith that no harm was meant.

 

It is indeed a fascinating topic, even though it might not be the one Cookie intended.  I'm still not sure about that...   

[Raggydoll]

And if someone had told me that I probably didn't understand and was not being true to myself I would have felt insulted, offended, and patronized.  More than fifty years later, with enough life experience for two or three unfortunate people under my belt, I think I would have been right to feel that way.  No one but my therapist, someone who is reading for me, or my husband (if I still had one) should presume to be in my head like that.

 

I totally get why that would upset you and I think it is very important that we only speak in personal terms when we talk about ourselves. It is not a good idea to make assumptions or speculate about other people’s private business. No one should feel that they need to elaborate, explain or defend themselves in regards to their feelings and experiences.

[Raggydoll]

And if you have to answer please don't use this patronising tone with me ... it's really annoying

 

And I also want to say to you Cookie[/member] that even if you felt that someone might have used a patronizing tone (which I did not feel was the case here) there really is no need to use this type of language in return.

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

I've said many times the Moon card is my favorite card in any deck.

 

The art of the moon, nothing to do with any general meaning.

 

I have an envelope of moon cards from members broken decks, and I love to look through them.

 

so what you are hearing on your social  media may not be what people are saying?

[Esk]

  Maybe this is a stretch, but you could also kind of see it as breaking free of the constraints that your religion or society places on you.  Not in a bad or evil way, just in terms of being yourself, rather than how others say you should be. (for example, some people think that Tarot is "of the Devil" - but we know better, and practice it anyway).

 

 

In a past reading I had this card and its meaning was exactly what you describe : breaking free from "traditional" expectation, from the norm, finally embracing what I think and what I want to do, even if it's not what others expected of me.

I also agree with Daniel about the sexual aspect of this card. It can be a great and animal attraction and great sex  ;) 

 

 

I come back to this comment about the Devil. I've just remembered someone said to me once that Satan is not evil, he's just a fallen angel who has been rejected by God for daring thinking by himself. I like this interpretation and it meets what you say Night Shade. I can understand why a person may love this card seeing it that way.

 

RavenofSummer I really like your answer. Very wise.

 

[Guest Night Shade]

I come back to this comment about the Devil. I've just remembered someone said to me once that Satan is not evil, he's just a fallen angel who has been rejected by God for daring thinking by himself. I like this interpretation

 

I really like this interpretation too, Esk.  <3 >:D

[Cookie]

yes, thank you all for your input .. there's been some very interesting points, and some diplomatic ones too. 

 

I didn't explain myself well enough, it's hard when i can't show examples from the sites i'm talking about. 

 

And please don't think I'm in anyway thinking that i'm better than these tarot people.  Even though i think there's a huge difference between 18 & 21 year old, a lot of the younger participants are far better than I am and the other people in their early 20's. 

 

Grandma[/member] , yes, it's very easy for people to look back and say they've had Tower etc experiences from the fine-tuned lens of an adult, but having not so long ago been an 18 year old and being around so many teenagers, the time is one of huge confusion & change esp if your childhoods been hard. 

As ravenofsummer is saying she can look back and say it was a Tower experience but if you would have told her that at 18 years of age she wouldn't have known what you're talking about.  Understanding of things like permission to hurt and of forgiving yourself etc, are totally alien concepts at this tender age (i hardly know what people are talking about and i'm not stupid, i don't think anyway).  Maybe i shouldn't of usednot being true to yourself, perhaps i should have said lost sight of what it's like to be a teenager.  And i'm not calling anyone old. 

 

Anyway, thanks all for the input.