Can Tarot 'see' the future?

[Wanderer]

I've got lots of 'difficult' questions rattling round my head, and since I'm totally flummoxed, I  thought I'd raise some of them here.  :biggrin:

 

First up: precognition. I know there's a range of opinions on this, but I don't know the rationale behind them.

 

My fallback position is that this isn't what Tarot is about. The cards are drawn due to interaction between the personal and collective unconscious, so they can reveal a lot of detail about predictable events that are inevitable outcomes of the present situation... but time is still an undiscovered country. If the cards can really 'see' into the future, then it means that all events are predestined, and we have no free will. Like most people, I don't like that idea... but I'm also aware that my dislike may have nothing to do with reality.

 

Having said this, I have started to get flashes of unexpectedly precise intuition and possible precognition. I'm averse to it really being true, and yet anecdotal evidence suggests there's something very odd going on. So, alternatively, could there be some manner in which time is not linear, but an illusion generated by the logical sequence cause and effect? Is it possible that divination taps into some reality where time is not sequential, but laid out all at once? If so, can we make any sense of that? Or, in the end, is everything predestined and we're just playing out the universal script..?

 

Thoughts, opinions and observations very welcome!  :)

 

 

[Raggydoll]

I've got lots of 'difficult' questions rattling round my head, and since I'm totally flummoxed, I  thought I'd raise some of them here.  :biggrin:

 

First up: precognition. I know there's a range of opinions on this, but I don't know the rationale behind them.

 

My fallback position is that this isn't what Tarot is about. The cards are drawn due to interaction between the personal and collective unconscious, so they can reveal a lot of detail about predictable events that are inevitable outcomes of the present situation... but time is still an undiscovered country. If the cards can really 'see' into the future, then it means that all events are predestined, and we have no free will. Like most people, I don't like that idea... but I'm also aware that my dislike may have nothing to do with reality.

 

Having said this, I have started to get flashes of unexpectedly precise intuition and possible precognition. I'm averse to it really being true, and yet anecdotal evidence suggests there's something very odd going on. So, alternatively, could there be some manner in which time is not linear, but an illusion generated by the logical sequence cause and effect? Is it possible that divination taps into some reality where time is not sequential, but laid out all at once? If so, can we make any sense of that? Or, in the end, is everything predestined and we're just playing out the universal script..?

 

Thoughts, opinions and observations very welcome!  :)

 

My opinions and experiences lie somewhere in between of what you are describing: I do not feel that everything is predestined, but I still know that it is possible to peek into the future. My experience is that precognitive visions are real, but that they can and will change when life factors change. Things will not always play out like in your first vision but if it is something you have a strong energetic connection to then you will probably have more visions popping up with expanded or altered scenarios. That is how it seem to ‘work’ for me, at least  :)

[Arabella]

So, alternatively, could there be some manner in which time is not linear, but an illusion generated by the logical sequence cause and effect? Is it possible that divination taps into some reality where time is not sequential, but laid out all at once?

 

While I'm no scientist nor do I have any more specific connection to the universe than anyone or anything else, I see what your saying, Wanderer and I would like to add my two cents worth.

 

With regards to tarot, I believe the cards reveal what's already inside of us and that predictable outcomes are probably a better explanation than precognition. BUT ... What if, like you say, time is not linear but not necessarily all laid out at once either. All points can lead to all points. Set points along the way could lead us down another path, "sliding doors" fashion.

The second we are aware of a possible outcome we have the power to change course consciously or subconsciously. That the timeline flies off in another direction just because we become aware of it. Sort of like electrical or magnetic currents emanating from each and every point that we chose to look at, either via tarot or any other means of precognition.

Not destiny as such but if the outcome was favourable to us, we continue down that path. If not, we change the path, a new destiny is found. I have no luck in trying divination readings for myself. I believe this is because I am me and therefore I bring my conscious and subconscious to the table. I could only get a predictive reading from another. And then the second I absorb the meaning of the reading I could fly off on another timeline to either that scenario or another depending on my like or dislike of the reading.

I think this is something like what Raggydoll has said, buts it's getting late here and I might be rambling  ;)

Goodnight, I look forward to reading more on this thread in the morning. Very interesting.

A

[ThreeCircleTarot]

I agree with the above post in that we have multiple paths ahead of us and we can get glimpses into a path ahead but have the free will to align with a different path. Nothing is set. That being said, I will never forget the day I got the death card, just before the time my grandfather met his demise.

[Wanderer]

Thanks for the responses so far! I got distracted half-way through writing this, then ineviitably came back and found the others...

 

 

My opinions and experiences lie somewhere in between of what you are describing: I do not feel that everything is predestined, but I still know that it is possible to peek into the future. My experience is that precognitive visions are real, but that they can and will change when life factors change. Things will not always play out like in your first vision but if it is something you have a strong energetic connection to then you will probably have more visions popping up with expanded or altered scenarios. That is how it seem to ‘work’ for me, at least  :)

 

Thanks Raggydoll[/member] !

Interesting... so you're suggesting it can tap into a future, but there's nothing fixed about it. Is it then actually a future (i.e. an alternative reality in the many-worlds scenario), or is it a viable possibility for the future? And if the latter, how is that different from just a speculative idea..? You see why I struggle with it?  ;)

[sandrang123]

I think tarot can foresee accurately what will happen in the future, *so long as things continue in the same manner in which they are at the time of the reading.* That said, everyone has free will and choice and if the querent makes spiritual, emotional, or intellectual changes, then the outcome can and will change. I am always careful to say, "If energies continue in the same fashion, then yes or no, x, y, or z will or will not happen."

 

Interestingly enough, this is also true for channeling. I have been to my own reader, who works with spirit guides, and the messages were wonderfully positive until a major shift happened between me and my agent, and then her next reading for me was almost the exact opposite of what it had been for a few years.

 

In astrology the natal chart can be seen as something of predetermined destiny or the blueprint of the soul, yet transits and progressions can come along and make normally "easy" aspects harder, or vice versa. So there's room for changes and growth and movement. There is, in astrology, something called fatalistic astrology (if I recall that is the term) that says all major events are predestined, period. That uses natal degree markers to predict things and they are static. (Again, I am going from memory here, from my astrology classes.) For example, in my own natal chart, I have a degree marker that indicates poor eyesight, and, in fact, I have had fairly poor eyesight my entire life. There are also degree markers to indicate killers, pathology, etc. I don't put much credibility in it, though, all in all. My teacher didn't. And if I believe degree markers, I'm someone who could be murdered by another. (Eh, not so good!)

[Guest snobchickenleg]

Interesting thread. I had a reading done for me by another reader. He gave me 3 months to 1 year for his predictions to come true. It has been 2 years and nothing has come of it, yet.

 

I am not saying that I am skeptic of the accuracy of each reading. I tend to ask my cards (for personal readings) advice instead because so far, this gives me more perspective.

 

As we all have free will, I don't brush off the idea that maybe, maybe I chose the other path, which made the predictions made for me change. Afterall, nothing is set on stone.

[Raggydoll]

Thanks for the responses so far! I got distracted half-way through writing this, then ineviitably came back and found the others...

 

 

My opinions and experiences lie somewhere in between of what you are describing: I do not feel that everything is predestined, but I still know that it is possible to peek into the future. My experience is that precognitive visions are real, but that they can and will change when life factors change. Things will not always play out like in your first vision but if it is something you have a strong energetic connection to then you will probably have more visions popping up with expanded or altered scenarios. That is how it seem to ‘work’ for me, at least  :)

 

Thanks Raggydoll[/member] !

Interesting... so you're suggesting it can tap into a future, but there's nothing fixed about it. Is it then actually a future (i.e. an alternative reality in the many-worlds scenario), or is it a viable possibility for the future? And if the latter, how is that different from just a speculative idea..? You see why I struggle with it?  ;)

 

You know what, I believe that there is a lot of truth in the old quote “Magic works in practice but not in theory”. And the same goes for divination, as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think you will be able to solve this particular puzzle with the logical and theoretical side of your brain. I can only speak for myself but a big part of what makes my spiritual and magical practice so potent is that I don’t require logic or evidence for myself. I just do what I know works and I really don’t care about how it works or why it works. And a lot of my spiritual/divinatory ‘knowledge’ stem out of a sense of remembrance. It comes naturally. And the less I question it, the stronger it flows.

[Wanderer]

Thank you all for the replies!

 

It's really interesting to see that there's a consensus here (so far) on them being able to show us a future that might happen, rather than one that will happen - and that this future can be changed. This is, in a nutshell, what causes me difficulty. If it's really a viable future, if the current energies continue, then it implies that events can be categorised as falling into one broad set of events or another. For me, though, decisions happen at every moment, affected by all the myriad decisions of those around you... so how can one path (leading to the outcome seen) be predictable? It would mean that there is a weak form of predestination, I suppose, where there are probabilities rather than absolutes. I could possibly accept that, I think... although given the number of subtly different futures possible, and the number of seemingly random events that influence everything, it's still hard to see how any one path can be seen as the current trend. I mean, whether you get up when your alarm goes off is predictable from current behaviour, but whether we happen to be in the right place at the right time for a chance meeting is not. How can anyone see whether one of the two scenarios is a continuation of current energies or situations..?

 

Alternatively, the idea of non-linear time is intriguing ( Arabella[/member] ), since this is exactly what the Tibetan mystics and Indian yogis regard as the real nature of the universe: a sea of consciousness from which the concepts of space and time emerge into the forms we see in the physical world. If Tarot were communicating with beings ('spirits) that live in this realm, then they may be able to see all times at once. Predestination isn't a thing, to them, because time isn't a thing.

 

snobchickenleg[/member] : yes, that's pretty much how I've always felt, but now I'm not so sure. I'm experiencing some surprisingly clear glimpses and insights that demand that I take them seriously. I still feel much more comfortable with asking the cards for advice than predictions, but my certainty is crumbling a little...

 

Raggydoll[/member] , yes, I get what you're saying!  :) For me, though, that sort of faith is strangely empty... I need to try to understand how or why something is happening. Whether that understanding comes through rationality, meditation or intuition doesn't matter, but I still have that need to fit it into my world-view and construct a framework where everything fits together. I'm kind-of envious of people who can just accept things and not worry about the reasons... but it's just not the way I work. I can't have confidence in what I'm doing unless I have an understanding of what it is (even though that understanding may be very wrong indeed!).

 

[Raggydoll]

Wanderer: I understand and respect what you’re saying, but for me it is never about just having faith or believing that something works. I know that it works (from empirical studies you could say!) - I just don’t know how it works. There are so many things in life that I know but that I can explain fully (I studied medicine many years ago and quickly learned that knowing something is true, or that it exists, without being fully able to explain it, is not something only tied to spirituality or the occult. It very much translates to every area that human beings have not explored completely).

[Wanderer]

Wanderer: I understand and respect what you’re saying, but for me it is never about just having faith or believing that something works. I know that it works (from empirical studies you could say!) - I just don’t know how it works. There are so many things in life that I know but that I can explain fully (I studied medicine many years ago and quickly learned that knowing something is true, or that it exists, without being fully able to explain it, is not something only tied to spirituality or the occult. It very much translates to every area that human beings have not explored completely).

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that it was 'just faith'; I meant more the religious type of faith, which is exactly as you describe: certainty that something is a certain way based on personal experience, with no need to understand why it's that way, or how. I have exactly the same sort of knowledge of various esoteric things, but I personally have a need to understand how and why they fit together as well - especially when there seems to be a conflict with other ways of looking at the world. It may be a failing, but that's the way I'm built... and of course it applies across the whole of life. There are vast realms of existence that I understand nothing about, but when I suddenly notice one, it doesn't half annoy me!  ::) Seriously, I'm very happy that other people find peace with accepting what they know, rather than interrogating it.

 

[sandrang123]

You might like talking with Ratty (Raddy?), who is on this forum, I believe. Your energies are quite similar. :)

 

Wanderer: I understand and respect what you’re saying, but for me it is never about just having faith or believing that something works. I know that it works (from empirical studies you could say!) - I just don’t know how it works. There are so many things in life that I know but that I can explain fully (I studied medicine many years ago and quickly learned that knowing something is true, or that it exists, without being fully able to explain it, is not something only tied to spirituality or the occult. It very much translates to every area that human beings have not explored completely).

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that it was 'just faith'; I meant more the religious type of faith, which is exactly as you describe: certainty that something is a certain way based on personal experience, with no need to understand why it's that way, or how. I have exactly the same sort of knowledge of various esoteric things, but I personally have a need to understand how and why they fit together as well - especially when there seems to be a conflict with other ways of looking at the world. It may be a failing, but that's the way I'm built... and of course it applies across the whole of life. There are vast realms of existence that I understand nothing about, but when I suddenly notice one, it doesn't half annoy me!  ::) Seriously, I'm very happy that other people find peace with accepting what they know, rather than interrogating it.

[DanielJUK]

Tarot is just cardboard so I am not sure it can see anything or have an independent life (metaphysical or conscious)  ;D  :love:

 

There are so many different ideas and theories here and we have to work it out for ourselves, where do the future predictions come from? Is a reader getting a message from angels or spirits or the dead? is it from a universal energy or a collective conscious? Is it psychic? I have no idea because I don't know for sure.

 

Some people don't believe in tarot for fortune telling or use it for future readings, they just use it in the present and past. This usage seemed to have become more popular in recent years with the fortune telling part of it almost frowned upon! I have seen discussions online (not on this forum) where it becomes a huge argument if someone uses it for future predictions. For future use, you need to have faith (faith in the tarot) and believe in things that are unknown! I do use it for present and development work but I do really believe we can get future messages from it. I enjoy fortune telling with it! I make predictions in current events and sports events and see how it manifests! I do readings for people where I do look in the future but I cannot be sure it's true, like I can with the past or present. Like so many people have said, it's one possible outcome. But there are a lot of people who have had tarot readings where someone had predicted something in the future with amazing accuracy! This has happened to me reading for other people, not every prediction is right and I would say a minority are 100% spot on but I have somehow got the info come to me that I could not have known. It's fascinating :)

 

My personal belief which might change is that the cards are a mirror and a tool to get a message from to interpret, the energy or communication comes from the universe somehow. We all have freewill but my current thinking is the universe has a plan for us. Some person is born and perhaps the universe's plan that is destined is they marry someone and have a family and become a Doctor in a scientific field. But they might decide in university to never have a relationship with another person with romance and they would study Art! This has thrown a spanner in the "destined" plan and would change all readings.  I think though the universe gently pushes us to the path it wants us on though and wants the best for us ultimately, they accidentally might find love and they quit their art course after a year and transfer to a science, things like that! I have seen it in my life that I have been shifted by coincidences. But this is my thinking :) Perhaps we all have a set destiny but we have freewill living our lives day on day!

[sandrang123]

Tarot is just cardboard so I am not sure it can see anything or have an independent life (metaphysical or conscious)  ;D  :love:

 

My personal belief which might change is that the cards are a mirror and a tool to get a message from to interpret, the energy or communication comes from the universe somehow. We all have freewill but my current thinking is the universe has a plan for us. Some person is born and perhaps the universe's plan that is destined is they marry someone and have a family and become a Doctor in a scientific field. But they might decide in university to never have a relationship with another person with romance and they would study Art! This has thrown a spanner in the "destined" plan and would change all readings.  I think though the universe gently pushes us to the path it wants us on though and wants the best for us ultimately, they accidentally might find love and they quit their art course after a year and transfer to a science, things like that! I have seen it in my life that I have been shifted by coincidences. But this is my thinking :) Perhaps we all have a set destiny but we have freewill living our lives day on day!

 

This is interesting, DanielJUK[/member] , as in my astrology classes, we would read other people's natal charts. The one woman we read, who ended up becoming a friend, had a strong natal placement in a career path in nursing or health-related fields. Well, damn, didn't it come up that she went into her father's business (which dealt with building/construction) but had always wanted to go into nursing then didn't because of family pressure. She also confided that she had never been happy with that decision and had never been happy in the family business--and at that time she'd been in the family business for oh, something like 30 years! So there's something, perhaps, to destiny and freewill and destiny knowing better. ;)

[EmpressAdora]

I love this question!  I haven’t had a chance to read what everyone else has said yet, so I’m only responding to the original post at this point. The short answer to me is yes. Yes, the tarot can predict the future. I’m a firm believer in fate and destiny. Like you said, many people don’t like to believe that that sort of thing exists because we don’t want to think that we don’t have a choice. However that’s not how I see it. I think we have a path set out of us. However, we have free will. So, we may or may not choose to continue on that path. We may branch off into other things. We may like a trip on a winding road end up right where we’re supposed to. Or we may end up in a totally different direction. That’s the power of free will. I also thing that whatever powers that be all it fate or what have you give us signs. Have you ever just felt drawn to something at your very core?  Or felt like meeting someone was absolutely meant to be?  Those kind of experiences to me are the kind that hint that you’re heading in the direction that this fate want you to. I’m no expert though, these are just my thoughts. So back to the actual question at hand, can tarot predict the future. Yes, but within a given path. I think that we all have a certain level of predictability in our lives. That even a stranger who observed us for a while could take an educated guess on where we would go next. I think the tarot often says. This will happen if you continue to move along this path,  if you continue to behave this way, if you continue to do what you’re doing. I think that is the beautiful thing about tarot is knowing that the answer isn’t the end all be all. So if you get an answer that you don’t like, you know that you have the ability to skew that outcome by putting out a different effort. That would be my next question in those situations “what do I need to change in order to change this outcome?” Anywho, just some of my thoughts.

[Wanderer]

Fascinating responses - thanks! I'm going to try to pull together what people believe to be true, and see where it takes us. I know we can't actually be sure what's going on, but humour me (or don't!).  :)

 

I think the consensus can be summarised as:

 

1. There may be a fate or destiny at work, with the universe having a 'plan' for us.

2. Tarot 'sees' that plan.

3. We have free will (this seems to be a universal belief here), and can deviate from the plan.

4. When we do that, a new 'plan' is generated, which affects not just ourselves, but presumably everyone whose lives we touch.

5. Goto 1.

 

The implication here is that in (4) our lives and 'planned' futures are affected by everyone we know. If the Tarot is reasonably accurate for future readings, then it implies that people very rarely deviate from the plan. When this is about their overall life path, I suspect that's probably pretty fair - most people probably end up doing what they're 'meant' to.

 

The original question, though, was about those little details that are nothing to do with overall direction, but more the random happenstances like losing a sock, being delayed for a minute, and therefore bumping into someone you haven't seen for years, half an hour later, by random.  My feeling is that if these little details generate new 'plans' every time they happen, then nothing would be stable. I can imagine a situation with no free will, in which everything is determined, and I can imagine a situation in which nothing is 'planned' beyond expected results of current behaviour... but this half-way house is what I find difficult to understand.

 

On the other hand, I do find all of your confidence and experience of future predictions very compelling, and I certainly don't dismiss it as imagination, or whatever. I've also experience the same: for example, a recent reading I did on here predicted that something around a month out wouldn't happen, against all the odds and expectations, which seemed practically certain even up to a few days before the event... and it now seems it was right. Was that also chance? My experience with Tarot suggests that there is very little chance involved, whatever the process is.

 

The other option, going back to some of the first posts, is that it's not about plans or predestination, but rather non-linear time. That somehow we are tapping into (or communicating with beings that are tapping into) a state of being in which all of time is laid out and visible: a sort-of 'future historian's view'. In this case, from our perspective nothing is predestined, and we make all our own decisions... but Tarot offers one way of getting a sneak preview. Of course, that would have all sorts of other implications... but it would force us to bypass some of the other issues.

  For example, when someone doesn't follow the path predicted for them, are the cards seeing a different (unrequited) future, or are they just seeing into the nature of the person? We could easily be picking up on what they were 'meant' to do, in terms of their natural personality and inclination, rather than any external plan. On the other hand, when we predict a future event that doesn't happen, could it not just be that we simply... pick the card next to the one we should have!? Heresy, I know...  ;D

 

A couple of special mentions:

DanielJUK[/member] , yeah, I know - cardboard doesn't have eyes!  ;) However, that's why 'see' was in quotes. And... I would dispute this idea that they're just bits of cardboard, and only the human involved has any power. It depends on your worldview, and I'm a closet animist; I suspect that consciousness is a fundamental aspect of the universe... even the bits of cardboard. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that we humans have actively instilled 'power' into the cards, creating there a focus for the transmission of information, allowing us to easily get to the answers that would take much more skill and effort (and ability) to achieve otherwise. My suspicion is that we've basically turned them into psychic computers. But I might just be bonkers.  :biggrin:

 

sandrang123[/member] Yes, indeed, I've noticed Ratty... but I'm not sure I could cope with all the Kabbalah!  ;D

[Grizabella]

I haven't thoroughly read through this whole thread yet but I wanted to add some things. I, being a senior, have "senior moments" so if I don't capture thoughts, they sometimes vanish without ever being expressed and then, when I shut the computer down and settle down to sleep, it will all come back to me, only to be gone again the next morning.  X-D

 

So anyway, Tarot doesn't see the future. Tarot is a tool used to help the reader to get answers. Since this moment we're living is not the future, it's now,if you ask what will happen in the next hour or year or whatever length of the time the answer will be telling you what you can expect for that time period. However, it's not locked in concrete.  We always have free will. We can accept that future if you want to but if you want something different, you still have the ability and free will to change the future. The users of Tarot are where the magic lies. There's no  supernatural entity who lives between the cards.

 

There are books that might help answer some of your questions. Dean Radin, PHD is one, Amit Goswami PHD is another and Dr. Larry Dossey Whoe is also a PHD if I remember right.) They've written fantastic books that I highly recommend. Tomorrow I'll go get some of their books and give you specific titles if anyone would like me to. For many, many, many years people didn't believe in people having psychic because nobody could prove it scientifically. To prove something by scientific means. many double blind studies are required to prove or disprove it. And they've now actually been able to prove---scientifically---that  not only is being psychic an actual fact, but all people are psychic. Many may not recognize it in themselves, or believe in it, but we do have that ability and it can be nurtured by various means.

 

There's way too much for me to post here, but the books are very  fascinating. If you want me to post some titles, I'll do that tomorrow. I;m getting over the flu and I'm too tired to do it tonight. Tomorrow will be better.

 

[skywatching]

Why does it have to be either or ? That seems very limiting.

 

For some reason I'm thinking about the ying yang symbol, not sure if it's relevant here. Black and white halves with smaller black and white circles within them. Because nothing in the universe or in life is black and white. Each exists in the other and each needs the other in order to exist.

 

I believe that we create our own futures every day when we wake up and get out of bed, because we play an active role in what happens to us. Then sometimes things out of our control that we can't predict, no matter how many tarot readings we might do, happen to us. Why? Who know's, that's life...nothing is simple or moves in a straight line.

 

Thanks for posing this question Wanderer, you've given me a lot to continue thinking about  :)