What have been your experiences re: doubt and being in metaphysics?

[Rarehare]

I was just wondering how many of you have dealt with doubt re: your metaphysical pursuits?  Spiritual things have always been a big part of my life, but there’ve been so many times I’ve stopped myself with doubt...then keep coming back.  Some of my happiest times have been when I’ve embraced things—when I was into astrology as a kid, when I read palms in my 20’s...yet there’s a scientific side of me that opposes all this and knows a lot of the world has valid reasons to doubt it, too.

 

Another striking time came when I’d gone back to tarot in my 30’s and a lady came to me for a reading, specifically, she wanted to know if she should commit suicide following the painful death of her husband.  I gave her her ticket (since it was a psychic fair) back and told her to get her money back from the woman running the fair.  Having been very sensitive my whole life has made me prone to depression and anxiety and I couldn’t give her a yes/no answer about suicide, which made her cry.  It’s taken me years to realize all that can be lost through suicide, but, by the same token, I don’t believe in holding a soul here when it’s there time to move on.  When it’s something like a suffering pet or relative you want them to go on in peace.  But it’s really hard to split hairs when you’re dealing with a fairly healthy body suffering to no end inside.  I still wonder what else I could’ve said in that moment.

 

I’m coming back to things as a way of reconnecting with my family, my dad, specifically, who has Alzheimer’s.  We have a shared love of metaphysics (with my mom, too), but combined with a dream of the Star card recently, I just felt like picking these things back up, despite the doubts, would be an extra way of staying connected with him.

 

So if I might ask, what have been your own experiences with doubt and being in metaphysics?

 

Thanks so much!

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

I don't believe in future telling.

I do believe in our ability to read the cards in ways that clarify things.

 

I don't believe in any gods

I almost...always believe humankind as a whole, is good.

 

I don't believe material things can make us happy.

I believe if we follow nature we will find peace in our heart.

[2dogs]

The physical sciences work really well in explaining the material world but limit themselves to measurable, objective and repeatable observations. Any ideas of meaning are excluded by the rules as being personal and subjective, so meaningful coincidences such as drawing relevant cards are ignored as being random events, non repeatable and subject to personal interpretation. Which means that if they happen often enough you can believe in them yourself but there are no scientists working on an explanation,  you're on your own.

[stephanelli]

In this situation, I think it is important to spend some time researching the parts you have doubts over.

 

I was really skeptical when I first started Tarot reading so I did some research into why the cards work.  I found it important to find a reason or two that works for me and that I can believe, even if it isn't good enough for other people and even if it isn't scientific.  Having those reasons why it works for me stops me from doubting as much.  Once I'd got those reasons I was able to embrace it fully and i now feel that I'm making good progress with the tarot.

 

Having been in the scientific research sector during my university years it's surprising how much science can't explain.  My favourite one is that no one has worked out the right formula that proves that a bumblebee can fly.  Clearly they can, but none of the current research can prove that mathematically.

So if they can't prove that a bumblebee can fly, something that we see all the time in the physical world, then trying to prove that the metaphysical disciplines work suddenly seems a lot harder.

 

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[Raggydoll]

Well, I believe I’m pretty influenced by something I learned back in med school. We were taught that there are still methods in use that we have no satisfactory scientifical explanations for in regards to why they are effective. But due to a long standing tradition of repeatedly seeing reliable effects we are still being able to continue with their use as long as the benefits outweigh the potential risks (and there aren’t any equally effective but scientifically proven alternatives out there). This is because we know that science is ever evolving and if something truly works then it is believed that we will at some point be able to explain its mechanisms. And I can’t help but think about the story of Louis Pasteur who tried to convince all this coworkers that they needed to wash their hands properly before tending to patients, because he believed that there existed something called microbes that was very harmful but invisible to the eye. You can imagine how most of those medical practitioners reacted when he explained his theory! Yet, he was able to show again and again that death rates dropped as a direct result of doctors washing their hands and boiling their equipment (the term pasteurization is named after him). He was also eventually able to prove the existence of microbes, but that is really beyond the point here. I know from experience and from repeated observations that tarot cards can reveal information that they should not be able to - because there is no real scientifically proven mechanism that backs it up. But that does not stop me from utilizing them to their fullest potential. And I’m not holding my breath waiting for someone to explain it in a scientifically acceptable way. It’s just doesn’t matter to me because I know that what I’ve experienced is real. And I know that I have had psychic visions and done predictive readings with results that just cannot be explained away. And it doesn’t matter to me what others think. It might seem odd but I consider myself a very rational ‘down to earth’ person and a huge part of my sanity is that I trust in my senses. I don’t need other people to interpret or validate what I feel or experience. I know what I know and both my feelings and my experiences are always valid and important to me.

[River]

I think that it is possible that there are forces or things or even relationships between things and events that science cannot prove because the variables are so many that it renders any experiment non-repeatable. For example, how can you prove that a spell really worked if, in your statistics, you have to take into account everything, from the practitioner's mindset to the qualities of the objective, to the timeframe, the degree in which the objective was or wasn't accomplished, the environmental factors, the subjective evaluation of the result... And even then, noone really knows if there is some force or particle that scientists have not discovered yet therefore it can't be taken into account. However, many people with this kind of experiences know their experiences are real. I haven't had many of this sort, to be honest, but I'm starting to have more and more, as I have started to study occultism. Moreover, I recently read a book about physics that led me to think that modern physics is mostly a science of possibilities; scientists don't just explain the things they observe, they suppose for example that a certain kind of particle may exist, and if it exists it might have a, b, c qualities, and then try to see if those qualities could work with the rest of the mathematical model. And I'm going to throw the cliche about quantum theory: consciousness seems to alter reality, at least at a microscopic scale, and nobody knows why. I don't agree with the positivist logic that it's not worth it to find out why, since things only start to exist when we measure them, seems too arrogant and it's not even shared by all renowed scientists. Positivism is a philosophical point of view, not an essential quality of scientific thinking.

 

That being said, I find it hard to "trust my intuition". I fear that if I leave pure logic on side and try to explore the world with other means, I will get betrayed by emotions, fears and desires and won't find the "truth". I've been taught to only use my mind, now I'm trying to make space for subjective experience, by trial and error.

[Wanderer]

It's not easy. I'm an active research scientist, and Tarot is very hard to reconcile with a rationalist understanding of the world. I'm sure that the reaction of most of my colleagues would be to say that I'm seeing patterns that aren't there, and have basically lost all objectivity. However... I don't think that's true.

 

Science, fundamentally, is about explaining observations. Too often, people start at the assumptions in order to assess which observations are acceptable. Subjective observations like how effective Tarot is can't be replicated in a lab very easily, but they still form the basis of our will to explain and investigate... and my experiences make it very hard to dismiss these 'inexplicable' phenomena...

 

So is there any way to explain the inexplicable? How can someone rational even take the possibility seriously? That's where you have to look into philosophy, although some parts of science are now at least debating some deeply non-materialistic solutions to scientific problems. I suspect the key will be panpsychism - a movement within (mostly) American neuroscience that is increasingly giving credence to the possibility of universal consciousness as a fundamental property rather than an emergent one. It's basically animism dressed up respectably. Combine this with all the weirdness of quantum mechanics and the possible multiverse, and it's hard to imagine something that isn't theoretically possible. For an inkling into where quantum studies can lead with respect to parapsychology and so forth, look up Brian Josephson's work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Josephson

 

So that's my take on it: science can't quite handle it yet, but that doesn't mean it's not real. I have little doubt that one day universal consciousness will be accepted, and at that point you can imagine all the possibilities that come back onto the table...

[Rarehare]

This has really helped me as doubt has been one of my strongest adversaries.  The other day I pulled a card for the question: What is my biggest obstacle and it came back the World.  So there was doubt and a fear that I might not go through with it all the way again...but I think things are lined up so that maybe this is the time they will.  For today’s daily draw the question was what do I most hope for and the answer was the 8 of Cups, so I’m leaving the past behind to do something more personally and spiritually fulfilling.  So I guess if I get doubters I can always quote Shakespeare, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horacio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”.  It’s really helped to hear from science-minded people who practice the tarot.  They say the definition of genius is the ability to hold conflicting thoughts about something and still be at peace with it, so I would say there are many geniuses just on this thread alone.

 

Thanks again,

 

This is a great place to metaphysically grow

[Rarehare]

I just read a great quote that applies here...Paradox is both unavoidable and the path to new knowledge.

[Day Soleil]

I was just wondering how many of you have dealt with doubt re: your metaphysical pursuits?  Spiritual things have always been a big part of my life, but there’ve been so many times I’ve stopped myself with doubt...then keep coming back.  Some of my happiest times have been when I’ve embraced things—when I was into astrology as a kid, when I read palms in my 20’s...yet there’s a scientific side of me that opposes all this and knows a lot of the world has valid reasons to doubt it, too.

 

What a great question. It's one I can totally relate to, as well.

 

I agree with those below who encourage you to keep learning, studying, reading. If your brain craves a "logical" explanation, keep exploring until you find one that satisfies it. I think this forum is a great way to learn and explore!

 

I hope you don't mind if I respond to the replies you got. I don't mean to hijack your thread at all, it's just that reading this question and the replies this morning just LIT UP my brain. If inappropriate, hopefully a mod will let me know (am still unfamiliar with the rules on this site, which is making me a little hesitant to respond).

 

At any rate, I feel like hugging you and each and every one of the people who responded.

 

I don't believe in future telling.

I do believe in our ability to read the cards in ways that clarify things.

 

I love this! I mean, isn't CLARITY what we are always reaching for, essentially?

 

The physical sciences work really well in explaining the material world but limit themselves to measurable, objective and repeatable observations. Any ideas of meaning are excluded by the rules as being personal and subjective, so meaningful coincidences such as drawing relevant cards are ignored as being random events, non repeatable and subject to personal interpretation. Which means that if they happen often enough you can believe in them yourself but there are no scientists working on an explanation,  you're on your own.

 

Good point. I agree, one has to be open to embrace and be confident in a rather solo/outsider/individualistic path, here.

 

it's surprising how much science can't explain.  My favourite one is that no one has worked out the right formula that proves that a bumblebee can fly.  Clearly they can, but none of the current research can prove that mathematically.

So if they can't prove that a bumblebee can fly, something that we see all the time in the physical world, then trying to prove that the metaphysical disciplines work suddenly seems a lot harder.

 

omg, I LOVE LOVE LOVE this story. Can't tell you how much I love it. Thank you for sharing this!

 

I’m not holding my breath waiting for someone to explain it in a scientifically acceptable way. It’s just doesn’t matter to me because I know that what I’ve experienced is real. ...  I consider myself a very rational ‘down to earth’ person and a huge part of my sanity is that I trust in my senses. I don’t need other people to interpret or validate what I feel or experience. I know what I know and both my feelings and my experiences are always valid and important to me.

 

Yes, this!

 

noone really knows if there is some force or particle that scientists have not discovered yet therefore it can't be taken into account. However, many people with this kind of experiences know their experiences are real. I haven't had many of this sort, to be honest, but I'm starting to have more and more, as I have started to study occultism.

 

That being said, I find it hard to "trust my intuition". I fear that if I leave pure logic on side and try to explore the world with other means, I will get betrayed by emotions, fears and desires and won't find the "truth". I've been taught to only use my mind, now I'm trying to make space for subjective experience, by trial and error.

 

Me too, this sounds very much like my experience as well, although now, after a year and a half of reading tarot, meditating, doing daily intuition exercises, wand-dancing and spell-casting, I understand my intuitive language better and can trust it now. I know my trust will keep growing, the more I continue doing them.

 

For an inkling into where quantum studies can lead with respect to parapsychology and so forth, look up Brian Josephson's work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Josephson

 

GAH! Two of my very favorite subjects, combined? Thank you so much for this reference, I'm off to geek out now

 

So I guess if I get doubters I can always quote Shakespeare, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horacio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy”. 

 

Rarehare, are we twins? That is absolutely my favorite quote in all the world. I can't tell you how many times I've said this to myself (and others) over the years.

 

 

[EmpressAdora]

Oh goodness, I saw this post while at work, and really wanted to get in here and talk about it.  When I was pretty little I had some serious gifts.  All of the clairs to their extremes.  full on premonitions the while nine yards.  For me, I thought it was totally normal to see and hear things etc.  When I was 10 my mom had to have a very major surgery, she sent me to live in Kentucky with my grandma while all of this was going on.  This when I encountered my first "negative energy".  I wont bore you all with all of the details of the things that happened in that house during that time suffice to say that I let to myself and my aunt exiting in tears and never returning.  When I told my grandmother what had happened she was non too amused.  Thought we were being nonsensical and called my mother to report my "shenanigans".  My mother, bless her heart, at this time was very very religious.  The "church" that she went to was constantly on the news for being a cult and all of these things that they were doing.  when I came home she was angry with me and embarrassed about how I had behaved.  She forced me into the church, and then consequently to a psychiatrist that was a member.  It was like a double whammy, pick my brain and force the church agenda.  I was so hurt that my own mother of all people didn't believe me.  She thought I was crazy.  I cried and cried, I can't even put that type of heartbreak into words.  Months of therapy later, the psychiatrist concluded that I had no signs of mental illness.  That this must mean that I am in cahoots with the devil.  Certainly these spirts that I was speaking too we're after my soul and sending me to my eternal damnation.  The believed that I was being possessed.  This lead to vigorous bible study.  I was allowed school, and reading the bible and prayer.  I had to take notes I was quizzed, you get the idea.  What did I pray for?  I prayed for my gifts to go away.  I begged and begged and begged God to make me normal.  Because I was so fervently made to believe that they made me bad.  This did go away, for the most part.  I couldn't see anymore.  I couldn't hear anymore.  I could still feel things, still had the occasional visions.  As I became older it started to come back.  In high school, I started to have a lot more visions, sad to say that most of these things are not about good situations.  They're about death, and accidents, and illnesses and things of the like.  I had it so beat into my head that I was bad, that when I would have one of these predictions come true, I honestly believed that I was the cause.  I beat myself up thinking I was bad for thinking that thing and causing so and so to get hurt.  What's wrong with me! Why do I keep thinking bad things and hurting people!?  I buried my gifts further and further away.  It wasn't until I was much older that I realized that I am seeing things as an opportunity to HELP people.  I am not causing this to happen.  I'm being given an opportunity to change them.  I have spent sickening amount of time thinking about this.  Only recently did I come to that realization, and it was then that I started opening up again.  My point is, doubt leads to fear, and that is detrimental to your success.  I have to think now if I had preserved, how many situations could I have changed, how much hurt could I have changed?  So, don't doubt yourself.  A little side note, my mother has long since apologized for putting me through that.  She says that she was scared.  She now believes it was a gift from God.  However, she's still not ok with the tarot cards or anything like that, because she thinks it means I am worshiping false idols.  She does like to hear about my experiences now though.  sorry for the novel haha

[Lantana]

This might be because I’m also religious, but I believe doubt is a natural part of spirituality. If we never doubted, then that means we might be taking everything at face value, and that’s no good either! Doubt lets us question our beliefs, our methods, and those supposed universal truths. It can be rough to go through and it can definitely hold you back at times, but I feel that it leads to growth in the end.