Is the High Priestess a sham?

[Wanderer]

[Hope this is the right place - first post in this new section!]

 

I recently (https://www.thetarotforum.com/wildwood/2-the-seer/) came to some surprising possible conclusions when looking into the Seer in the Wildwood - the equivalent of the RW High Priestess, that enigmatic character that gives so little away - and suddenly realised that they might apply more widely.  I was startled when the cards gave me this interpretation so clearly, but in hindsight it makes sense of a great deal. It's not a bad thing, either... but it may give me a completely new way of looking at her. Alternatively, I might be spouting complete heresy. But here goes anyway.  ;D

 

The basic meaning of the HP is related to intuitive knowledge and wisdom, but with a heavy dose of inscrutability. She knows stuff... but she doesn't often tell us what it is. In fact, I've even seen her referred to here as a 'blocking card' - one that says, "You're not allowed to know that answer to that, yet." She's all  about the silent authority, and our belief that she possesses a deep wisdom and understanding.

 

I did a quick reading for the Seer as part of getting to know the card, and it seems to be saying that what is important is not whether she actually has that wisdom, but just that she is seen to. We need figures like her in order to offer guidance, security and knowledge, in the same way that many people find believing in a god to be comforting. Does it matter whether she actually possesses the wisdom that we ascribe to her? The oracle of Delphi was notoriously cryptic, most of the time... was that because of a Deeper Meaning, or was she acting out her role, being what people needed her to be?

 

So, 'sham' may be the wrong word; perhaps 'construction' would be better. Has anyone ever had the feeling that the HP is partly or purely a construction, in the sense of an archetype that humans have a deep-seated need for, irrespective of whether the figure actually fulfills the expectations? Is this why she stays so quiet..?

 

[Grizabella]

The High Priestess has vital spiritual knowledge but she doesn't just throw it around to just anyone. She discerns their motives for asking and then dispenses knowledge if she sees the seeker is ready for the  knowledge and determines how advanced (or not) their ability to process it is.

 

The sham of the cards is the Magician. People get hung up saying "he's got all the tools". Well yes, he does have all the tools but that doesn't mean he uses them for truthful  things. His tools are to help him be a sleight of hand expert who can fool others. He's the master of illusion, after all. He can make you see what's not there and not see things that are there.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Grizabella

[PageOfCups]

I thought teh High Priestess was only a “sham” (like a con-artist who poses as a spiritual person) when she’s in the reverse? So Rx High Priestess is Miss Cleo.

 

Same with The Magician. He’s only a manipulator and scammer in the reverse, I think?

[Wanderer]

Thanks for the replies, Grizabella[/member]  and PageOfCups[/member] - that was much the reaction I was expecting!  ;) However, it's not quite got to the heart of it...

 

I'm not talking about the Miss Cleo scenario here; she's not a complete fraud, by any means, but how much of her aura is bestowed on her by humanity's need to have such a figure? Can a High Priestess be as much a figurehead or an image, as a real embodiment of the virtues associated with her?

 

Also, does it vary for different decks and different people (practically everything else does to some extent, after all)? In decks without reversals (like the Wildwood), the reversed meaning must be contained within the card, no? And therefore, the HP must in those cases include an element of the illusory; part of her must be about appearances rather than reality. This is why I was asking - not to see whether everyone agreed (obviously, not everyone would), but to see whether anyone has had this impression or understanding of her appear before.

 

It's interesting, Grizzabella, that you have the charlatan aspect being included in the Magician - that's something I'd always felt with the RW as well, but it's not at all my feeling with the Wildwood, where the Shaman seems to be the real thing. So it may be something very specific to this deck...

[River]

I think the major arcana archetypes can also represent things we embody, not only external influences, therefore the High Priestess could be a call for someone to search for answers through insight and intuition, and in this sense I think it's contradictory to think of her as a sham. The card I could relate to blind belief and the need of spiritual authority, whether it actually posesses the wisdom or not, is the Hierophant (his darker side, I suppose). There it is that the initiate is called to surrender to the teachings and guidance of someone in a higher position and have hope and faith that those teachings are true. The High Priestess isn't seen so much surrounded by people; to me, she doesn't really care to fool you anyway; it's not her job, she doesn't have a reason to. She doesn't represent any existing social institution, like the Hierophant may be seen as representative of tradition, the church or the elders in a community, she is just an image representing the seeking of hidden wisdom. The Hierophant is a depiction of organized religion and tradition, of the "outward" aspect of spirituality - looking for answers through community, teachings, following... the High Priestess is the "inward", looking inside, finding personal answers. To me, the High Priestess is a very "introverted" archetype, for lack of better word. I think the whole confusion stems from the different depictions - in the RWS, there is no doubt that the High Priestess posesses the wisdom, because you can see that she is holding a script, however she keeps it folded. In the Delphi, she is Pythia, and while Pythia had some traits of the High Priestess archetype, she was a priestess with a certain job and a certain historical role.

 

PS: Who is Miss Cleo? :P

[DanielJUK]

River[/member] Miss Cleo was a fabulous lady in America who was in US informericals for her "psychic helpline" during the 90's, "Miss Cleo" had a heavy Jamaican drawl but really she was an American called Youree Dell Harris. She worked for and promoted Psychic Readers Network but it was a scam and the fleeced many people who phoned the expensive service. The two owners were charged with deception in 2002 but Harris not. But it was revealed Cleo was an alias during the court hearing and her Jamaican Patois was fake.

 

She went on to voice films and computer games and tried to launch her own (genuine) service and made her own tarot cards which are quite cute!

 

There is still an argument today about how real or fake she was, was she a con artist or conned by the big psychic company? She died in her early 50's of colon cancer in 2016.

 

Before she died she took part in a documentary about phone lines called "hotline", in it she made claims about the company, she made pennies per call but the company owners made millions. It implied that she did terribly out of it all. In the end she was a worker on the bottom rung and was used due to her extroverted "fake persona" for the promotion. After her death she was redeemed as a person I think but some people still have issues about the service and her readings.

 

An introduction to her with clips of her adverts from the documentary-

 

here

 

Back to the topic and Wanderer[/member] you always make me think  :))

 

For me the HP is not a sham, like Griz said, she really has that knowledge, she really is in front of the curtain to the other realm. But she doesn't give the information we need easily! I don't find her comforting at all, she is not the Empress or Motherly. She is cold and difficult to get anything out of, to access the knowledge it takes hard inner work and contemplation and waiting for the right time. Her secret knowledge is not to comfort us but to guide us when we are ready, I find her quite challenging :) If she was a sham, she would be much easier to get what we want to hear from :)

[PageOfCups]

Not to derail the thread, but my theory is that Miss Cleo did have a gift. But she was 100% "psychic" (could see through her naturally-opened 3rd Eye) and didn't really need tarot (and therefore never needed to learn the basics of tarot). Which is all fine and dandy by me, I'm not mad at her.

 

But then she decided to use tarot for props and sold that ridiculous deck which you could tell was developed by someone with zero concept of the tarot system by any existing school of thought (and wasn't like she was doing her own thing). I still love her tho. I find her endearing.

 

DanielJUK[/member] thanks for sharing that Vimeo video. Will watch it! Not sure if Vimeo is still blocked by the Indonesian government, but I'll use a VPN if it is.

[Raggydoll]

To me the high priestess is the symbol of wisdom as well as the Sacred Feminine. She is also the gatekeeper to the temple of knowledge, but she is not that knowledge personified.

[Grandma]

I don’t see the High Priestess, or any other card, as always having a good or bad meaning.  Each card must be interpreted through the filters of nuance, variation, layers, situation, location, etc.

 

This valuable thread highlights the two different usages of the word “archetype”.  An archetype is an overarching concept common to the human experience, but it is also a specific representative of the particular concept.  And a specific individual can be a representative archetype of more than one conceptual archetype.  For example, the conceptual archetype of the hero can be represented by such disparate examples as John Wayne and Holden Caulfield, and Holden can also be seen as a representative archetype of the conceptual archetype of searching for meaning.  To add to the complexity, a particular Tarot card can represent several aspects of an archetype – the Five of Pentacles, to name one, can show us material poverty or poverty of spirit, and it can show us potential for salvation from such poverty. 

 

Thus, “inner experience, wisdom, self-knowledge, unconscious awareness, spirituality” contribute to the conceptual archetype represented by the High Priestess.  She can represent this concept by being secretive, reserved, accessible or unforthcoming, or by offering answers that are within and can be found and utilized, or by hoarding answers that are within but must remain hidden, or by tricking us because are no answers but we need the comfort of believing that there are, and so forth. 

 

The job of the reader is not to memorize and insist on 78 definitions, personalized or traditional, and plug them into readings.  It is to interpret what each card is contributing to the gestalt – the organized whole that is more than the sum of its parts.  What the High Priestess means in a given reading depends on the position, the image on the card, its relationship to the other cards in the spread, the question and situation being read for, the intuition, experience, style and philosophy of the reader, the intent of the author and artist of the deck, and the mysterious power of Tarot.

 

The resulting synergy – the combined effect of these factors to produce something greater than the sum of their separate effects – is a Tarot reading at its glorious best.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Wanderer]

Thank you all for the responses - there's good stuff in all of them (and I'd expect nothing less!  ;)).

 

Thanks, DanielJUK[/member] for the extra background on Miss Cleo - she's not someone I ever saw, but she seems to be a regular citation on here, so it's good to know a bit more about her. Sounds as though there might be a lot more to her story than I (at least) assumed...

 

River[/member], I think we're closer to agreement than it appears. The reason I changed the word 'sham' to 'construction' at the end is because I completely agree that she is not a deliberate fraud... she's not out to gull the locals for their silver pennies, or anything so mundane. My suggestion is more like Pythia - and as you so rightly say, some decks specifically engage this sort of aspect. I'm not doubting that the Seer has power, and I'm not doubting that the High Priestess has inner wisdom... but how much the human need for such a person has created the persona itself.

    There are similarities to the Hierophant, I agree, but I find his authority a bit of a blunt instrument. With the High Priestess, her possible role is to be the reserved, silent figure with inner strength and mysterious understanding... because we also need the inspiration of knowing that such a person exists, and such a state is possible. We don't need her orders, but her inspiration... and so we build up the character into something a little different to who she really is. The true personification of her virtues may be a girl living in a little village somewhere, unknown and anonymous... but we need her to be visible, and therefore we create the role of High Priestess, without really knowing what lies beneath.

    On the other hand, maybe she really is exactly as the archetype suggests... but then, how would we know? At the least, for me, there's a hint of uncertainty here that (if nothing else) adds to her mystery...  :)

 

Grandma[/member] : Yes, I agree with all of that, and you've adroitly pulled out the concept I was struggling with! Is the High Priestess --the person-- an archetype itself (as in, is she a real, singular personification of the ideals), or is she a human who has been chosen to embody the archetype (in the sense of the overarching concept)? Is she an actress so deeply embedded that she is living the role, or does the role purely reflect the reality within? And does it even matter?

    Of course, she's actually a card... so perhaps I'm trying to delve too deeply for the question to even make sense!  ;D

 

[Oink]

The basic meaning of the HP is related to intuitive knowledge and wisdom, but with a heavy dose of inscrutability. She knows stuff... but she doesn't often tell us what it is. In fact, I've even seen her referred to here as a 'blocking card' - one that says, "You're not allowed to know that answer to that, yet."

 

IMO, you’ve got the essence of it right there in that quote.  She represents initiation.  The obstacles along the way will be different for each individual, so everyone must take their own solo journey.

 

In Crowley’s and Waite’s version of Hermetic Qabalah, the High Priestess corresponds to Gimel, the path between sephira 6, Tiphareth, and sephira 1, Kether on the Tree of Life. 

 

Traversing this path is known as “crossing the abyss”.  This path passes over Daath, the “false sephira” which I picture as sort of a psychic black hole.  This part of the journey is referred to as “the dark night of the soul” one must pass through before achieving initiation via unification with the godhead.  The Hebrew glyph for Gimel is designed to resemble a camel’s hoof. 

 

Lon Milo Duquette says it like this in “ Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot”:

As the only middle-pillar path that spans the Abyss, the position of the High Priestess on the Tree of Life is unique.  She links the ultimate Father of Kether to the Son of Tipareth and, in doing so, joins the supernal triad to the rest of the Tree.  "In this card," Crowley points out, "is the one link between the archetypal and formative worlds."  The Abyss she traverses is, quite literally, the desert of the soul, and like the desert camel, she is the only vehicle capable of crossing that terrible wasteland.

 

 

[Guest Night Shade]

I don't think the High Priestess is a sham.  Just because she sees all, that doesn't necessarily mean that she shares all.  She follows the maxim "a little learning is a dangerous thing", and makes sure you're ready and worthy before she tells you all you want to know.  Like the mystery schools of old, she makes you go through an initiation before she reveals all her secrets to you. 

 

The High Priestess represents intuition, but just because you get this card in a reading doesn't mean that you are guaranteed a great revelation.  Intuition only works if you open yourself up to it - if you close off your connection to your unconscious, or to your higher self,  you won't gain any insight, no matter how much is offered to you.  You can't blame the High Priestess for not telling you, you can only blame yourself for not listening.

 

Finally, the High Priestess may not share what she knows for your own good.  Sometimes ignorance really is bliss, and finding out a secret may only cause everyone concerned heartache and pain.

 

 

[Cookie]

Just from her elusive and mysterious history of who she is or who her influences were:  The Papess Pope Joan? or the "feminist" martyr Sister Manfreda? or the Virgin Mary? or the Isis Priestess of Ancient Egypt? .... the dark and rich vein of  feminine principles which run through culture, religion & cosmology is surely wisdom in it's most pure and universal form? 

[sjc87]

Sometimes, we're not meant to have answers at the moment.  I don't think that it's a bad thing at all- The High Priestess does look mysterious and stoic, but I don't think it makes it a sham card.

[Wanderer]

Thank you all for these replies - I missed these extra ones!

 

I think the message is pretty clear that most people consider her to represent exactly what she appears to. I have no problem with that at all for the HP, even though in the Seer's case I do think the overlay of expectation and role-filling is a key part of her message (this meaning has started to appear in readings now, so for good or ill, it's part of my meaning-sphere). On the other hand, if she was partly there to be a semi-artificial archetype, we readers would be exactly the people who would need her to be that archetype the most. If it were to be true, then this might be one of Night Shade[/member]'s times when ignorance is bliss.  ;)

 

I'm going to leave it there, I think; for me, the whole issue adds another level to her mystery... but in the end, she is who she is, and some things are not for us to know.  :shhh:

 

Thanks all for the input!

[AnomalyTempest]

I never thought of her as Sham. The thought that most often comes to mind for me is a Middle Eastern (I think, I first heard it in Arabic) proverb that translates something like, "Destiny is like a veiled woman. She hides a great deal and shows very little."

[Wanderer]

I never thought of her as Sham. The thought that most often comes to mind for me is a Middle Eastern (I think, I first heard it in Arabic) proverb that translates something like, "Destiny is like a veiled woman. She hides a great deal and shows very little."

 

Thanks for reanimating the thread!  :) Interesting, and that does seem to be by far the most common view. This subject also turned up here, though:

https://www.thetarotforum.com/talking-tarot/let's-talk-about-misunderstood-cards!/

...and it seems I'm not alone in wondering.

As I said earlier, though, 'sham' is very much an oversimplification; to me it's more that she's a figurehead for a profession, with power vested in her because the people need that power to exist. Whether that power actually exists is moot; it might, but it might not be quite what it seems. She might be a fake, or perhaps only partly; to some extent, that's not what actually matters. Bluelagune[/member] mentioned that only men see her as fake, which is an interesting perspective; while I can't deny being male, personally I don't see gender having anything to do with it, and was also thinking of historical Scottish (often male) seers, for example.

 

This is, of course, the wonder of Tarot - different perspectives coexist, and the cards can accommodate them all. Remember also that this discussion was based originally on feelings about the Wildwood Seer, and the HP may well be a slightly different archetype, even for me... even if meanings start to blend between decks once they emerge in one place. 

[AnomalyTempest]

I think that would make her kind of like the Wizard of Oz. The (Wo)man behind the curtain. :P

[Wanderer]

I think that would make her kind of like the Wizard of Oz. The (Wo)man behind the curtain. :P

 

In a way, yes!  :D

Someone who can do wonderful things by helping others to become better, without necessarily having the powers that everyone assumes. That's hardly a bad thing, is it?

 

Of course, there is no right or wrong; this is simply my understanding of one level of the Seer, and that's what the cards will make use of with my intuition. For others, it may be anathema, and that will work for them. It's just interesting to share our thoughts to see how we can expand each others' understanding.

[Oxfret]

Well, it might be dead but my opinion hasn't been posted so here it goes.

The High Priestess is the gait keeper to knowledge, she doesn't actually posses the knowledge herself. She is receptive for the reflection of knowledge to pass through her but the reflection is of the person or situation presented, not relative of herself. It is entirely possible the amount she has to share is depended on who is asking, and completely outside of her control. Sometimes this may take the from of all knowing seer, figure head, ect. as has been said already it comes in the form of what the person needs to see or hear.

While some people may need a figure head, and that can and should be the end of the story, I still think it's important to note that Tarot works because it beautifully illustrates life in every aspect. The characters, situations and meaning placed behind every card is representative of something or someone in the world. The High Priestess is no different, and is indeed indicative of real struggles.

This isn't really my interpretation of what the card means, just my perspective of her life I guess.

[Marigold]

The High Priestess represents Sophia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(Gnosticism). She can't be a sham. Unless reversed and would therefore represent ignorance and/or unawareness, for example. 

 

Arthur Waite called her the "highest and holiest of the Greater Arcana". There's no sham there. Just the highest and holiest. 

[katrinka]

There IS that Pope Joan story attached to the TdM Papess.
There's no solid evidence linking it to the card, but it's a pretty persistent story. (You'll even see cards at the link.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

And who knows? It may even have happened, else why the Pope Chair? http://thisculturalchristian.blogspot.com/2011/12/pope-benedict-iii-papal-testicle.html

😄😄😄😄😄

 

But no. The High Priestess isn't about that. She's secretive, but that isn't the same thing as scams, shams, and fakery. She just doesn't consider every Tom, Dick, and Harry fit for the mysteries.

[Marigold]

24 minutes ago, katrinka said:

There IS that Pope Joan story attached to the TdM Papess.
There's no solid evidence linking it to the card, but it's a pretty persistent story. (You'll even see cards at the link.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

And who knows? It may even have happened, else why the Pope Chair? http://thisculturalchristian.blogspot.com/2011/12/pope-benedict-iii-papal-testicle.html

😄😄😄😄😄

 

But no. The High Priestess isn't about that. She's secretive, but that isn't the same thing as scams, shams, and fakery. She just doesn't consider every Tom, Dick, and Harry fit for the mysteries.

Pope Joan story is very quaint. 

 

And yes, every Tom, Dick and Harry won't get past her unless they're worthy. She's the veil between this world and that world. A bit like the Sphinx - you have to answer the three questions asked before you can go across the bridge. If you don't answer correctly, you're back to square one. 

 

Sort of like this :

 

 

 

[Wanderer]

4 hours ago, Oxfret said:

Well, it might be dead but my opinion hasn't been posted so here it goes.

The High Priestess is the gait keeper to knowledge, she doesn't actually posses the knowledge herself. She is receptive for the reflection of knowledge to pass through her but the reflection is of the person or situation presented, not relative of herself. It is entirely possible the amount she has to share is depended on who is asking, and completely outside of her control. Sometimes this may take the from of all knowing seer, figure head, ect. as has been said already it comes in the form of what the person needs to see or hear.

While some people may need a figure head, and that can and should be the end of the story, I still think it's important to note that Tarot works because it beautifully illustrates life in every aspect. The characters, situations and meaning placed behind every card is representative of something or someone in the world. The High Priestess is no different, and is indeed indicative of real struggles.

This isn't really my interpretation of what the card means, just my perspective of her life I guess.

Thanks, Oxfret - beautifully put! If I understand you correctly, then I agree. Each card in the Tarot represents a broad facet of the human experience, and that comes with complications. To me, if we limit the interpretation of one card to a specific, absolute meaning, then we are limiting its potential and its messages.  

 

Looking at it a different way, this thread was really all about whether the card represents the person/archetype depicted in it, or the role of that archetype in our lives. For me, the purpose of an archetype is to represent aspects of experience in shorthand, and so Tarot is really all about the latter rather than the former. In the High Priestess, what matters is therefore how she is seen and how she affects our lives, and not who the original authors envisaged her as...  interpretations of mythological figures or tradition change over time, even if the historical response to them is fixed.

[Wanderer]

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

The High Priestess represents Sophia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(Gnosticism). She can't be a sham. Unless reversed and would therefore represent ignorance and/or unawareness, for example. 

 

Arthur Waite called her the "highest and holiest of the Greater Arcana". There's no sham there. Just the highest and holiest. 

 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

But no. The High Priestess isn't about that. She's secretive, but that isn't the same thing as scams, shams, and fakery. She just doesn't consider every Tom, Dick, and Harry fit for the mysteries.

Thanks for the input, both - definitely the popular (but not universal) view! I wonder that you've not quite 'got' was I was suggesting, though, since you seem to be refuting something that isn't quite what I'm saying. I'm not suggesting that she's a scam artist, or a trickster, but just that her role and appearance is more important than her actuality. As I just said to Oxfret, I think what is underlying all this discussion is whether the cards are really about the characters portrayed, or about the role they play in our lives... because the two are quite different things. 

 

It's interesting that you say, Marigold, that she can't be a sham because she is meant to be Sophia. But, you see, I'm not Christian or Jewish... to me, therefore, one could say that Christianity is a sham (in the same way that I'm suggesting for the card), and therefore so is Sophia by default. That wouldn't be to deny the power that gnosticism has had over shaping thought and society, but then the emphasis is very much shifted towards the role that the concept of Sophia has on society, rather than treating her as a 'real' archetype... and that, again, leads back to her fulfilling a role, being a mirror for humanity to judge ourselves in. At that point, it doesn't matter whether she has those powers or not; her role is to be seen to have those powers. 

 

I probably won't persuade many people that there's more to her than you've thought, but hey... that doesn't matter. I do feel it's good for all of us to explore subtly different ways of looking at cards (and I've learned a lot about the 'original' meaning in the process!), and makes us grow into more rounded readers. 

 

Love the Pope Joan allusion, @katrinka! 😅

Seriously, though, it's another layer of meaning, and the cards are quite capable of handling several of them simultaneously. We just need to accept those meanings as viable... I'm convinced that the Tarot adapts itself to our own understanding, in how it gets its messages across.