Anouk Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 I'm not sure I've titled this question clearly. But a few times I've come across a negative answers to a positive question and positive answers in negative spaces, where it becomes very difficult to understand how a card could be read positively or negatively. For example asking "What is not broken in this relationship?" and getting the Three of Swords in that position. Is this saying "Everything is broken. RUN." or is the Three of Swords in this position saying "Broken hearts are not irreparably broken." Or you ask "What went wrong in the relationship between the Q and their ex?" And you get the Ten of Cups? How can you judge it negatively? Is it saying "Actually, they were great together and nothing went wrong." They were just examples I pulled from my head to give the most obvious examples. But I did actually have the three of swords come up in a similar question. Can anyone shed some light on these kinds of situations? I find it really hard to keep going with a reading when I see answers that stick out like this. I feel like I must have lost touch with the cards.
gregory Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 Not really wrong, no. Take that Three. To quote from the excellent Thirteen's little book: There is, however, an upside to this card, however bleak. Prior to now the words and thoughts - possibly poisonous words and thoughts - have been bottled up. They now come out into the open, the cutting truth. I don't like you, or, I didn't say that. or, I'm sorry, but it's your best friend I love (ouch!). So, well now the Querent knows; no more waiting, obsessing, wondering, worrying. Either blood or poison can drip out, and the Querent can get on with their life. They now know how things stand and can act on that instead of on false beliefs, gossip and misconceptions. So if it HAS to mean - in your reading - that something is RIGHT, it could simply mean that they already know the awful truths about each other. Or that some hurtful rumours they heard have now been dealt with ("Yes, I slept with her. I'm sorry; I know I've hurt you, but can we start over ?"). That kind of thing. Ten Cups - which family ? Could one of their birth families be more important to them than the relationship that went wrong ? There's always something. You just have to look harder. (Or say"look, I don't understand this - maybe I'm not the right reader for this.)
Anouk Posted January 8, 2019 Author Posted January 8, 2019 Not really wrong, no. Take that Three. To quote from the excellent Thirteen's little book: There is, however, an upside to this card, however bleak. Prior to now the words and thoughts - possibly poisonous words and thoughts - have been bottled up. They now come out into the open, the cutting truth. I don't like you, or, I didn't say that. or, I'm sorry, but it's your best friend I love (ouch!). So, well now the Querent knows; no more waiting, obsessing, wondering, worrying. Either blood or poison can drip out, and the Querent can get on with their life. They now know how things stand and can act on that instead of on false beliefs, gossip and misconceptions. So if it HAS to mean - in your reading - that something is RIGHT, it could simply mean that they already know the awful truths about each other. Or that some hurtful rumours they heard have now been dealt with ("Yes, I slept with her. I'm sorry; I know I've hurt you, but can we start over ?"). That kind of thing. Ten Cups - which family ? Could one of their birth families be more important to them than the relationship that went wrong ? There's always something. You just have to look harder. (Or say"look, I don't understand this - maybe I'm not the right reader for this.) Well I understand how it is context dependent, but it just seems in some cases to be so blatantly the opposite of any card that would make sense there. If a person is seeking answers to find out what went wrong in their relationship and if it's fixable (which, from everything I read, is one of the most common things people want to know), then it indicates they don't have the three of swords clarity. They don't know about the best friend or the real reasons, which is why they're asking in the first place. That particular question "will they come back" is, apparently, the most asked question. So if you want to find out what was good about their relationship and you get the three of swords, or you ask what went wrong and you get the ten of cups, it simply doesn't clear things up. So I guess in that case, where it makes no sense, you do as you said and bail on the reading and simply "I'm not able to read this".
Saskia Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 1. "What is not broken in this relationship?" and getting the Three of Swords in that position. 2. Or you ask "What went wrong in the relationship between the Q and their ex?" And you get the Ten of Cups? You need to stick with your question and think of the cards purely as they are, not as negative or positive. Examples: 1. What is not broken? 3S. The fact that you are still able to feel deeply, reveal your hurt, be open and vulnerable, reveal your heart, understand the other's pain, you're not too cynical and 'over it' to not care. 2. What went wrong? 10C. Expectations were far too rosy, the parties were clinging on to unrealistic ideas about happiness and fulfilment, they were expecting 'it all' from each other when nobody is able to be all things to their partner, they were seeking 'happily ever after' which is not actually how life works. I hope this helps!
Wanderer Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 This is something I often come up against, and at first glance the card just jars with my expectations. There's one spread I use where one card is about the things that hold us back, and it is invariably a 'positive' card! ::) The issue here is how we understand 'meaning' for cards, because Tarot is nothing if not subtle... I always see the cards as representing broad concepts rather than specific meanings. To illustrate, the three of swords is in my deck the Three of Arrows: Jealousy. It is a wooden heart, aflame, pierced by three arrows, and bleeding onto the parched, bare ground beneath. The card represents that intense state of mental anguish related to a desperate desire that is unreachable or torn forcibly away from us. Is this good or bad? No, it's neither; it just is, and what comes of it is dependent on both the details of the situation, and how we respond. For example, it may be that the current situation is something that has to be brought to a head, like a storm that is building and needs to break before the humidity and tension become unbearable. It may instead be that the blood from the wound is needed by the ground beneath, in order for the natural order to flourish. It may be that this card helps us to see that the things we desire and the things we need are two different things, and lets us break through the heartache by seeing through the illusions of what our minds crave, but which cannot really be ours. For your second example ("What went wrong?" Ten of Cups!), I would be looking immediately at the possibility that life was too good and too easy (in practical terms), which led to the petty things coming to the fore. Sometimes it is challenge that brings us closest together, and gives us a shared purpose. If our journey lacks difficulties that we can face together, then sometimes we unconsciously create them... and that can lead to seeing flaws in the other party. The more unfair and unreal it all is, the more resentment builds, and the less it is ultimately resolvable. I wonder whether this is part of why so few marriages of the rich and famous seem to last forever; not that they have no worries, of course, but they probably have fewer shared challenges than the average couple. This is really a question about human nature; like the Tarot itself, a complete individual and a complete relationship needs to encounter all the facets of life in order to grow and develop. We all know that 'Happy Ever After' is only found in fairy tales... but the reason is that perfect happiness cannot last, because that alone makes us unhappy. We need the contrast, or we stagnate and create the difficulties that we need. Likewise, nothing is ever wholly bad; there is always a seed of hope or a positive perspective, even if sometimes it takes a little bit of finding. (Incidentally, this is why real depression is so terrible: it takes away that natural balance, turning everything grey and pointless). Sometimes, it is the challenge itself that is important, because that is the impetus for our growth and development. Does that help?
Saskia Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 Also to second gregory's point, the question matters. When you ask 'what is right in this relationship', you're assuming there's still something right. Hence, you get confused with the 3S which very well MAY be a neon lamp warning screaming nothing's right. Perhaps try to ask more descriptive questions like what's the general state of this relationship, and what practical steps each party could take to improve its state.
Anouk Posted January 8, 2019 Author Posted January 8, 2019 This is something I often come up against, and at first glance the card just jars with my expectations. There's one spread I use where one card is about the things that hold us back, and it is invariably a 'positive' card! ::) The issue here is how we understand 'meaning' for cards, because Tarot is nothing if not subtle... I always see the cards as representing broad concepts rather than specific meanings. To illustrate, the three of swords is in my deck the Three of Arrows: Jealousy. It is a wooden heart, aflame, pierced by three arrows, and bleeding onto the parched, bare ground beneath. The card represents that intense state of mental anguish related to a desperate desire that is unreachable or torn forcibly away from us. Is this good or bad? No, it's neither; it just is, and what comes of it is dependent on both the details of the situation, and how we respond. For example, it may be that the current situation is something that has to be brought to a head, like a storm that is building and needs to break before the humidity and tension become unbearable. It may instead be that the blood from the wound is needed by the ground beneath, in order for the natural order to flourish. It may be that this card helps us to see that the things we desire and the things we need are two different things, and lets us break through the heartache by seeing through the illusions of what our minds crave, but which cannot really be ours. For your second example ("What went wrong?" Ten of Cups!), I would be looking immediately at the possibility that life was too good and too easy (in practical terms), which led to the petty things coming to the fore. Sometimes it is challenge that brings us closest together, and gives us a shared purpose. If our journey lacks difficulties that we can face together, then sometimes we unconsciously create them... and that can lead to seeing flaws in the other party. The more unfair and unreal it all is, the more resentment builds, and the less it is ultimately resolvable. I wonder whether this is part of why so few marriages of the rich and famous seem to last forever; not that they have no worries, of course, but they probably have fewer shared challenges than the average couple. This is really a question about human nature; like the Tarot itself, a complete individual and a complete relationship needs to encounter all the facets of life in order to grow and develop. We all know that 'Happy Ever After' is only found in fairy tales... but the reason is that perfect happiness cannot last, because that alone makes us unhappy. We need the contrast, or we stagnate and create the difficulties that we need. Likewise, nothing is ever wholly bad; there is always a seed of hope or a positive perspective, even if sometimes it takes a little bit of finding. (Incidentally, this is why real depression is so terrible: it takes away that natural balance, turning everything grey and pointless). Sometimes, it is the challenge itself that is important, because that is the impetus for our growth and development. Does that help? Very much so. It's very illuminating. I think as a beginner tarot reader I get too hung up on trying to decipher the code. Everything you just wrote is something that I know, I just forget to put what I know with what I'm trying to decipher. I think this is why experienced tarot readers who also understand human nature, are wonderful therapists. Better than many therapists because they're not taking a one-sided story and trying to make sense of it, they're seeing a more complete picture of human nature. Wanderer[/member] Are you a professional tarot reader? Saskia[/member] I keep forgetting to take the cards as they are. It's something I find really fascinating about tarot, actually. For example the Fours are all some kind of stability, which isn't always favourable for a situation, for example the four of cups could mean boredom or stagnation. I think it's really fascinating that there's so much depth to the meaning of the cards.
Wanderer Posted January 8, 2019 Posted January 8, 2019 Very much so. It's very illuminating. I think as a beginner tarot reader I get too hung up on trying to decipher the code. Everything you just wrote is something that I know, I just forget to put what I know with what I'm trying to decipher. I think this is why experienced tarot readers who also understand human nature, are wonderful therapists. Better than many therapists because they're not taking a one-sided story and trying to make sense of it, they're seeing a more complete picture of human nature. Wanderer[/member] Are you a professional tarot reader? Glad that made sense to you, Anouk! :) No, no - I'm flattered, but I'm definitely not a professional reader... and in fact I've only really delved into Tarot at all deeply in the past few months, once I found the right deck that allowed me to really feel as though it made intuitive sense. My day job is research is the natural sciences, so pretty far removed! ;)
Anouk Posted January 9, 2019 Author Posted January 9, 2019 Very much so. It's very illuminating. I think as a beginner tarot reader I get too hung up on trying to decipher the code. Everything you just wrote is something that I know, I just forget to put what I know with what I'm trying to decipher. I think this is why experienced tarot readers who also understand human nature, are wonderful therapists. Better than many therapists because they're not taking a one-sided story and trying to make sense of it, they're seeing a more complete picture of human nature. Wanderer[/member] Are you a professional tarot reader? Glad that made sense to you, Anouk! :) No, no - I'm flattered, but I'm definitely not a professional reader... and in fact I've only really delved into Tarot at all deeply in the past few months, once I found the right deck that allowed me to really feel as though it made intuitive sense. My day job is research is the natural sciences, so pretty far removed! ;) Yes and no. It all depends on how you approach tarot. There's a scientific approach and there's a faith based approach and every colour of the rainbow inbetween. How many of your workmates or social circle know about your interest in tarot? Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
Wanderer Posted January 9, 2019 Posted January 9, 2019 Yes and no. It all depends on how you approach tarot. There's a scientific approach and there's a faith based approach and every colour of the rainbow inbetween. How many of your workmates or social circle know about your interest in tarot? Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk It's true that you can approach Tarot in an experimental way, but rather like parapsychology, the assumption that it might be able to work is fundamentally opposed to naturalistic science - at least in the mainstream. I know some of the quantum interpretations (e.g. Brian Josephson's work) provide some potential basis for certain degrees of weirdness manifesting within human experience, but there's still a huge problem in trying to scale up to the macroscopic... and my area is definitely in the macroscopic and naturalistic. However rational the approach taken to investigate Tarot (or parapsychology), any hint of non-random meaning in the cards is still dismissed by the vast majority of scientists as complete bunkum. Some of my social circle know, but none of my colleagues... if word got out, I'd be kind-of ostracised! ;)
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