Struggling with the associations of the suits

[draiocht]

Hi all, I'm pretty new here so please bear with me if this is a silly question  ::)

 

Anyway, I'm kind of stuck on the associations with the suits...

 

Swords = Air

Wands = Fire

Cups = Water

Pentacles = Earth

 

I can remember Cups = Water = Emotional depth, or Pentacles = Earth = Growing prosperity.  But I can't see Swords as Air and Wands as Fire, in my mind it's the other way around.

 

I guess I just think of Swords not only being by smoldering heat, but also representing destructive power, like fire.  Where as Wands feels much more airy to me, as you direct a wand through the air with intention and focus, causing invisible change,  like wind.

 

So... I'm just wondering, do other people see it that way as well? Are there any decks that are designed that way? Would this really affect the outcome of a reading if I viewed them that way, or should I really just focus on the traditional association?

[Grandma]

Welcome to TT&M, draiocht, and it's not a silly question at all.

 

Another set of associations are creative energy for wands, emotional energy for cups, mental energy for swords, and physical energy for pentacles.  These tie in nicely with the elemental energies that you listed and maybe it makes more sense to you that way.

 

I think it does matter.  The traditional associations and the established agreed upon keywords are the basic vocabulary of the decks.  Without them we can't understand each other's language.  But once we have learned the words, we can begin to write poetry with them.  We can bring our intuition and insight into our reading.

 

If we just rely on standard meanings we are following a recipe.  Anyone can do this.  Once we know what they mean we can improvise on those meanings.  We can create our own delicious dish! 

 

 

[White Fairy]

For me I was already aware that air is often related to intellect, which is one of the meanings often represented by swords.  In astrology, some air signs are considered to enjoy or posses great wit, and and may have a cutting tongue (hence a sword). The tarot deck I'm working with right now features pretty heavily in elemental imagery for cups and wands so that really helps me to remember that way too.

 

Do you own a tarot deck and does it contain lots of imagery relating to any of the elements? Or are there any other associations you can make which link the suits to what they represent? Maybe it will help to link them to the astrological signs from the zodiac so what traits in fire signs may be linked to wands for example?

 

Keep reading about the elements and the decks, and you'll find a link that works for you.

[Arabella]

I guess I just think of Swords not only being by smoldering heat, but also representing destructive power, like fire.  Where as Wands feels much more airy to me, as you direct a wand through the air with intention and focus, causing invisible change,  like wind.

 

Hi draiocht, welcome to the forum. I agree with Grandma on the energies of the suits and all that encompasses, but your words resonate with me too, in that if swords are mental energy then the destructive power and smouldering heat of thoughts and being in ones own head are just as powerful as fire.

Wands as creative energy and your words of intention and focus sounds to me like a "fire in your belly".

So that's how I assign the energy of the suits so for me you are both correct.

I'm sure there are some decks that have the swords and wands around the other way as I've seen a discussion here on the forum. Maybe some of the more experienced folk can let you know which ones if you really can't get your head around it.

But I agree with Grandma that reading RWS that way might be tricky if you are waivering in your swords/wands. But then again your cards are your cards and as long as you let them know what you assign and where I don't see any problem in them hearing you and drawing and reading "your way".

Just my 2 cents worth

A  X/

[sandrang123]

I love so much how you complicate and blend the energy of the suits. Reading your post, it reminded me of my astrology teacher who said: Uranus and Saturn are completely different energies, but this is also true: Only Saturn can break the chaotic energy of Uranus, and only Uranus can break the overarching energy of Saturn.

 

I agree that it's good to know the traditional associations, but I can also see where your intuition is taking you, and that's pretty cool too.

 

Wishing you all best as you move forward.

Sandy

 

 

[AJ-ish/Sharyn]

there are some decks designed to be read as air/fire and wands/air

 

Celtic Dragon tarot

Nigel Jackson tarot

Shapeshifter Tarot

Witches Tarot

The Byzantine Tarot

Stokes Legends Tarot

 

[Rose Lalonde]

following on from what AJ-ish/Sharyn[/member] said...

 

also the Crystal Tarots by Trevisan and a few more listed on AT.

(ETA -- sorry, my bad, Crystal Tarots swaps Swords/Cups, not Swords/Wands)

 

I've heard it said that Wands/fire Swords/air become more popular in Wiccan circles after Gerald Gardner wrote rituals that associated wands with air, but don't know the details myself.

 

(For the Thoth and RWS, if I were to switch Wands to air, it would require me to do a lot of flipping around of related correspondences that influenced Crowley and Waite's meanings and illustrations. Things like the 2,3, and 4 of Wands corresponding to the fire sign Aries, while the 2,3, and 4, of Swords correspond with the air sign Libra. Which is not to say you can't flip whatever you want! Or not include any of that. -- I'm all for people reading in the way that works best for them, and that can vary widely from reader to reader. -- But you might find you enjoy working with Wands/air most when using one of the decks that was created with Wands/air in mind.)

[Guest]

as one looks into this debate they will find a few ways the correspondences for suit to element has fallen out over the years. The suits as they are chosen in decks that hail form the Golden Dawn era have suits borrowed from French, German, and Italian decks of cards. The suits chosen that we are all accustomed to were selected for the symbolic representations of the elements.

 

In egyptain decks swords are earth and pentacles are air...yet another variety

 

The important thing, I found, to note is that the cards that represent air, the Jack that represents Aquarius for example, is always air in every deck regardless of the suit chosen to represent it.

 

in egyptian decks the jack of pentacles is aquarius and in most RWS jack of swords is.

 

To read a new deck properly first I pull out all of the court cards and put them in order of KKKKQQQQJJJJ. The orders the courts should go in is fire,earth,air,water and repeat for each K, Q, J. Having all 12 of them lying out in this order one can see how the creator of the deck in question has chosen to handle the elements by observing their correspondence to the 12 zodiacs through the year.  The kings will be the first four zodiacs, Aries Taurus gemini, cancer The queens will be the next four Leo vVrgo, Libra, Scorpio and the Jacks will be the last four Sagitarius, Capricorn, Aquarius ,and Pisces.

 

 

in the long run I have personally left suits behind and just think in elements. Suits as we use them are residual devices from the french magical influences on the Golden Dawn and their magic rituals. the element is the real data, the suit is a container created for the element to be represented in a tangible way.

 

 

[draiocht]

First off thank you all for welcoming me, only here a day but this community seems absolutely lovely!

 

The deck I'm using is called Celtic Tarot by Gaudenzi and Tenuta, and the images are real fantasy art-based, and although I thought it was just a stylistic choice... all the Swords backgrounds are red, and the Wands are grey - totally reinforcing my initial assumption. But now that I know other decks have done that, it must be intentional.  It's nice to know that it's ok to read them that way, although I probably only will with this particular deck.

 

This is my first deck and I really only bought it on a whim... maybe not the best for learning though as although it's technically  based on RWS, the images are really quite different, plus it also includes Celtic legends which can lend their own meaning! There's just a lot going on, haha. However I love the artwork and it has certainly opened the door for me getting into Tarot. :)

 

Think I'll get a RWS deck for learning the basics, (though, real big fan of the Thoth artwork as well!) and really focus on all the symbolism presented there, before moving onto other decks and interpretations.

 

Also I love all your comments on the different ways you all interpret the elements or energy behind the cards. Although I'm quite new to this, it seems that most Tarot enthusiasts are quite respectful of different interpretations and ways of reading, but still appreciative of the traditional symbolism and foundation behind the cards, which I think is pretty cool. :) There is so much for me to learn!