Eric13 Posted April 26, 2019 Author Posted April 26, 2019 What this shows, or even proves, is the evolution of tarot over the centuries and how readings can all be interpreted differently by the reader a for the querent. Excellent historical pictures and definitions by everyone by the way. Thank you.
AnomalyTempest Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 What this shows, or even proves, is the evolution of tarot over the centuries and how readings can all be interpreted differently by the reader a for the querent. Excellent historical pictures and definitions by everyone by the way. Thank you. Exactly. Just as languages evolve over time so does the language of Tarot. We have ideas and words that simply did not exist in the early days of Tarot.
PageOfCups Posted April 26, 2019 Posted April 26, 2019 I THINK that is still supposed to be a dog, actually :) Boo. I would've loved to see a dog in The Baroque Bohemian Cats' Tarot, tho. That would've amused the hell out of me. Alas no dog. What this shows, or even proves, is the evolution of tarot over the centuries and how readings can all be interpreted differently by the reader a for the querent. Excellent historical pictures and definitions by everyone by the way. Thank you. Exactly. Just as languages evolve over time so does the language of Tarot. We have ideas and words that simply did not exist in the early days of Tarot. It's just like with astrology and how the outer planets were discovered when humanity was ready for the areas of life which they represent.
PageOfCups Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 I’d love to know what Tarot readers of the period told their qu’eurents when these crotchy cards came up in a reading...
Guest D76 Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 I’d love to know what Tarot readers of the period told their qu’eurents when these crotchy cards came up in a reading... Then there was no querents. Fortune-telling by the tarot cards began only at the end of the 18th century. Tarot is a playing deck of cards! )
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 We can never actually know that for a fact. All sorts of things happened in the past that can neither be proved nor disproved. Fortune telling has happened since time immemorial, and I'm willing to bet that people used anything that came to hand as an aide - whether or not there was an actual system in place. And even in the game, I'll bet people commented on the images anyway. And said things like "OOOH you played that fool, are you trying to insult me ?" ;) More to the point - everything isn't historical and scholarly here - fun discussion is harmless, and the occasional joke is not a sin :) .
Saturn Celeste Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 If you look into Italian humor of the past, they've always been very open about the body. Look at the Sola Busca, there are some very funny images depicting the royalty of the times! Naked butts and large male parts have always been a staple of ancient Italian humor. Same goes for Ukiyoe Japanese art, they have very enlarged body parts! :eek:
Raggydoll Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 We can never actually know that for a fact. All sorts of things happened in the past that can neither be proved nor disproved. Fortune telling has happened since time immemorial, and I'm willing to bet that people used anything that came to hand as an aide - whether or not there was an actual system in place. And even in the game, I'll bet people commented on the images anyway. And said things like "OOOH you played that fool, are you trying to insult me ?" ;) More to the point - everything isn't historical and scholarly here - fun discussion is harmless, and the occasional joke is not a sin :) . I think it would be highly unlikely that people did not use their tarot cards for divination- even if it was in a most rudimentary and unorganized way in the beginning. People were using regular playing cards for divination back then, so why would they not consider tarot cards in similar ways? I have heard several authorities on tarot (and the history of tarot) suggest that it is very likely that tarot cards were used for fortune telling almost from the very beginning. A lot of what the common people did in historical times has not been documented anywhere so we really can’t know for sure. But it’s interesting and inspiring to think about. Mary K Greer did a lovely workshop on the history of card readers, through the lense of art (paintings and illustrations from these last centuries).
Guest D76 Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Italian fool are pissing .....( Rouen/Leber deck). Fool, what he should be.
Guest D76 Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Mary K Greer She is an occultist by nature. It means, he sees what he wants. As a Tarot historian, she is a complete zero.
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 "Give me the money* !" GREAT motto ! * OK - purse.
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Mary K Greer She is an occultist by nature. It means, he sees what he wants. As a Tarot historian, she is a complete zero. Now there I have to take issue with you. You may not like Mary, but a zero as a historian she is not. You only have to attend one of her workshops - particularly on HP - to know that. And her time line is excellently useful, with no hint of occultism contaminating it.
Guest D76 Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 We can never actually know that for a fact. If you do not know, it does not mean that others do not know ... By the middle 18th century, there were many fortunetelling books, but none that have been discovered that explicitly mention methods for fortunetelling with playing cards (!). Only by the latter part of the century, after the publication of the fortunetelling guides of mystifier Etteilla, and the Tarot essays of another mystifier Antoine Court de Gébelin, cartomancy was regularly included as a method of fortunetelling in divination books. However, in England we do know that there was some kind of tradition of cartomancy being taught and practiced in the early part of the 18th century. We know this from mentions made of methods of cartomancy in a few literary works....and nothing else....
Raggydoll Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Mary K Greer She is an occultist by nature. It means, he sees what he wants. As a Tarot historian, she is a complete zero. D76[/member] I will remind you to be respectful in how you express your opinions. This is not the first time that you speak in an offensive way and it is simply not OK. I do not want to have to lock this thread because of you.
Guest D76 Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Mary K Greer She is an occultist by nature. It means, he sees what he wants. As a Tarot historian, she is a complete zero. D76[/member] I will remind you to be respectful in how you express your opinions. This is not the first time that you speak in an offensive way and it is simply not OK. I do not want to have to lock this thread because of you. And what offensive I said about her? Open her blog and read what she writes about the history of the tarot! This is ridiculous. This means that, she is unprofessional about this question. This is an objective truth. You do not like the truth?
Saturn Celeste Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 And what offensive I said about her? Open her blog and read what she writes about the history of the tarot! This is ridiculous. This means that, she is unprofessional about this question. This is an objective truth. You do not like the truth? D76, you have received a warning to respect everyone. Just because you think one way does not mean you are going to change everyone's opinions to your way. We are tired of you arguing EVERYTHING people post here! Just please, be respectful and let some things ride as someone else's opinion!
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 We can never actually know that for a fact. If you do not know, it does not mean that others do not know ... By the middle 18th century, there were many fortunetelling books, but none that have been discovered that explicitly mention methods for fortunetelling with playing cards (!). Only by the latter part of the century, after the publication of the fortunetelling guides of mystifier Etteilla, and the Tarot essays of another mystifier Antoine Court de Gébelin, cartomancy was regularly included as a method of fortunetelling in divination books. However, in England we do know that there was some kind of tradition of cartomancy being taught and practiced in the early part of the 18th century. We know this from mentions made of methods of cartomancy in a few literary works....and nothing else.... Yes we know that. We do not know - and nor do you - that no-one used cards for divination before whatever date you believe they didn't. Not everyone writes down everything they do in books - and this would have applied far more in an age when your average person couldn't just go out and publish, as they can today. Indeed, way back when, quite a few people who might have told fortunes might not have been able to write - or to afford paper and ink. And as books weren't as prevalent then, might anyway not have thought it worth the effort. You do not know all this - because you cannot. If I tell you that there was a book detailing 7,000 types of coffee in the 13th century - you CANNOT prove me wrong. It simply cannot be done. Proving something is true is relatively easy. Proving that something is not true is almost impossible.
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Mary K Greer She is an occultist by nature. It means, he sees what he wants. As a Tarot historian, she is a complete zero. D76[/member] I will remind you to be respectful in how you express your opinions. This is not the first time that you speak in an offensive way and it is simply not OK. I do not want to have to lock this thread because of you. And what offensive I said about her? Open her blog and read what she writes about the history of the tarot! This is ridiculous. This means that, she is unprofessional about this question. This is an objective truth. You do not like the truth? I have read her blog, as well as several of her books. You disagree. That's your privilege. Others differ. That is theirs.
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Find me what in here is an unprofessional sin ? http://www.tarotpassages.com/mkgtimeline.htm For a start.
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 And on playing card divination: https://marykgreer.com/2008/04/01/origins-of-divination-with-playing-cards/ And don't forget that in those days, tarot cards would have been counted among the playing cards used. And what PLAYING cards would be referred to here - around 1600 AD ? “There was another Wizard (as it was reported to me by a learned and rare Scholler, as we were discoursing about Astrologie) that some twentie yeeres before his death told Cuffe our Countreyman, and a most excellent Graecian, that hee should come to an untimely end: at which, Cuffe laughed, and in a scoffing manner entreated the Astrologer to shew him in what manner he should come to his end: who condiscended to him, and calling for Cards, entreated Cuffe to draw out of the Packe three, which pleased him; who did so, and drew three Knaves: who (by the Wizards direction) layd them on the Table againe with their faces downewards, and then told him, if hee desired to see the summe of his bad fortunes reckoned up, to take up those Cards one after another, and looke on the inside of them, and he shluld be trouly resolved of his future fortunes. Cuffe did as he was prescribed, and first took up the first Card, and looking on it, he saw the true portraiture of himselfe Cape a Pe [head to foot], having men compassing him about with Bills and Halberds: then he tooke up the second Card, and there saw the Judge that sat upon him: at last, he tooke up the last Card, & saw Tyborne, the place of his Execution, & the Hangman, at which he then laughed heartily;"
Raggydoll Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 Anyone who knew Mary as Teheuti has seen how knowledgeable she is. I have attended several of her webinars and read a lot of what she’s written. I admire her brilliant mind and I’m grateful for everything she’s contributed to the tarot community.
gregory Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 I've met her a couple of times and agree. Sure she is into the occult side as well, but she does know her history. And there is nothing wrong with being particularly solid on the more recent history of tarot - she is quite excellent on the Waite/Smith deck. Just because the TdM and the Sola Busca came before it doesn't make them the be-all and end-all of tarot. And the Sola Busca - the deck you most want to own in the whole world, D76 ! - has many illustrated pip cards that presage the Waite/Smith deck , for which it was something of an inspiration. Look, no Mary Greer: http://www.thequeenssword.com/sola-busca-ferrara-xv-ls-review/
Saturn Celeste Posted April 28, 2019 Posted April 28, 2019 http://www.thequeenssword.com/sola-busca-ferrara-xv-ls-review/ This is a quote from that link: So let’s go back to the deck on display here. The LS Sola Busca Ferrara does not have a LWB with meanings and reading tips and there is good reason for that: the original meanings and interpretations are simply not known and I think Lo Scarabeo decided it was not up to them to come up with some. In the box there’s an extra thick card, looking like vellum, that holds your limited edition number and a very thin parchment-colored booklet/leaflet proving you with some of its history, a reference to the Waite-Smith scenics and the Majors with all their names. This might sound useless, but it is not. I was on the waiting list for the museum quality Sola Busa for months and months until they finally cancelled the order. But that deck was supposed to have a guidebook with it which I wanted so badly. I do have the Game of Saturn though and as much as I paid for it back then I'm sure it's doubled in price now. But I'm never selling any of my Sola Busca books and decks! I also find the deck very useful for the history if Italy at that time. It's like recorded history in art form. ;) Game of Saturn https://scarletimprint.com/publications/the-game-of-saturn I have the hard back edition limited to 800 copies. Looks like there is still a paperback version available for 40 Euros. That's something new since I bought the book.
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