thinkingmystic Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 Here's the video: It raises important questions about how comfortable the tarot community appears to be with non-diverse decks. There's a much needed larger discussion that needs to happen around this, but being a Nosy Nellie I'm very curious about which deck she's talking about. What do you think?
Raggydoll Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 Very important topic that I care greatly about. I need to rewatch the video when I have more time, but my guess is that she’s talking about the Alchemical visions tarot by Arthur Taussig.
gregory Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I have to say that a lot of people forget (when talking Smith Waite etc) that a deck IS of its time. There is no need to blast the Smith-Waite for being what it is. I read an excellent book about English literature and women portrayed in it the other day and one sentence said what I have been trying to say for YEARS, so very well: "It is essential to see texts in their own contexts.We should not blame eighteenth-century writers, for example, for not having our view of the cosmos." and she goes on to discuss how we cannot impose today's political correctness on texts written in a time when that political correctness was not part of society, and goes on to say: "We get nowhere by denying the way we were." I don't know what deck she is referring to here, but I do think that's important when we look at older decks. I really object to criticism of the Smith Waite deck for having no black figures in it, a totally heterosexual lovers' card, and three male courts to one female. That deck was not created today. Creators create from their own experience of society.
Raggydoll Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I have to say that a lot of people forget (when talking Smith Waite etc) that a deck IS of its time. There is no need to blast the Smith-Waite for being what it is. I read an excellent book about English literature and women portrayed in it the other day and one sentence said what I have been trying to say for YEARS, so very well: "It is essential to see texts in their own contexts.We should not blame eighteenth-century writes, for example, for not having our view of the cosmos." and she goes on to discuss how we cannot impose today's political correctness on texts written in a time when that political correctness was not part of society, and goes on to say: "We get nowhere by denying the way we were." I don't know what deck she is referring to here, but I do think that's important when we look at older decks. I really object to criticism of the Smith Waite deck for having no black figures in it, a totally heterosexual lovers' card, and three male courts to one female. That deck was not created today. Creators create from their own experience of society. This is absolutely true. And we must not forget that even if the creator or the artist would have wanted to include more diversity then they would very likely not have been allowed to do so by the publisher. And I do not believe that the RWS tarot was aimed at a very diverse group of customers either. I remember reading one of Agatha Christie’s earlier books that had some really offensive and rasist remarks that shocked me pretty bad and made it difficult to finish the book. I realized that those kind of remarks was not seen as an issue back then, otherwise she wouldn’t have continued to be a bestselling author. It’s really sad and troublesome to see these things but I’m glad that the times are changing and that people are having these kind of discussions.
gregory Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 Exactly. THANK You for seeing that Raggy. So many people just don't. As a result some WONDERFUL books have been banned. I miss Little Black Sambo, which actually may have had slightly iffy illustrations but in fact portrayed Sambo and Quibba and the others VERY positively - I wanted to be Quibba, myself !) and the idea that we had to take characters out of the Noddy books (which I loathed - actually because of the revolting Noddy himself ! but still) because they don't fit in with the PC of today is insane. And when we see nursery schools making children sing about baa baa GREEN SHEEP, words fail me. I LIVE among sheep. There are very few black ones. That's nature. Why shouldn't one admit that in a nursery rhyme ? It's not as of the rhyme even says one SINGLE negative thing about black sheep....
Saturn Celeste Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 This is the deck: https://benebellwen.com/spirit-keepers-tarot/gallery-of-all-cards/ At least it's the one on that video page.
Raggydoll Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 This is the deck: https://benebellwen.com/spirit-keepers-tarot/gallery-of-all-cards/ At least it's the one on that video page. No that’s the deck that Benebell herself has created. In this video she mentions being asked to endorse a deck that claimed to be “THE deck for the 21st century”. She says that the deck in question was featuring white people in colonial dresses and only two people of color - in tribal wear. I believe the deck she’s describing is the one I mentioned in my first post. There are some pictures available if you google the decks name plus the creator (otherwise you’ll include Robert M Places alchemical deck too, so you need to type in the specifics).
Raggydoll Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 These are screenshots from google after I did a search on the Alchemical visions tarot
Saturn Celeste Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 This is the deck: https://benebellwen.com/spirit-keepers-tarot/gallery-of-all-cards/ At least it's the one on that video page. No that’s the deck that Benebell herself has created. In this video she mentions being asked to endorse a deck that claimed to be “THE deck for the 21st century”. She says that the deck in question was featuring white people in colonial dresses and only two people of color - in tribal wear. I believe the deck she’s describing is the one I mentioned in my first post. There are some pictures available if you google the decks name plus the creator (otherwise you’ll include Robert M Places alchemical deck too, so you need to type in the specifics). OH!!! This is Pinterest but here are some more images https://www.pinterest.com/cliftaylor/tarot-cards-by-arthur-taussig/?lp=true I looked at the SKT and I really liked that deck and didn't understand why she would be talking about that deck, it was very cool!
Raggydoll Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 This is the deck: https://benebellwen.com/spirit-keepers-tarot/gallery-of-all-cards/ At least it's the one on that video page. No that’s the deck that Benebell herself has created. In this video she mentions being asked to endorse a deck that claimed to be “THE deck for the 21st century”. She says that the deck in question was featuring white people in colonial dresses and only two people of color - in tribal wear. I believe the deck she’s describing is the one I mentioned in my first post. There are some pictures available if you google the decks name plus the creator (otherwise you’ll include Robert M Places alchemical deck too, so you need to type in the specifics). OH!!! This is Pinterest but here are some more images https://www.pinterest.com/cliftaylor/tarot-cards-by-arthur-taussig/?lp=true I looked at the SKT and I really liked that deck and didn't understand why she would be talking about that deck, it was very cool! Yeah, her deck is very cool and incredibly unique in more than one way. Very potent, magically and spiritually speaking. I’m glad that she released a second edition so that I had a chance to pre-order it. Last time it sold out in a week but this time people can still order a copy even now that the pre-order has closed as they have a (limited) surplus of decks
Guest libra Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I don't feel like she was blasting older decks at all in this video, but rather saying that we need to do better with decks NOW. I work in an office that's small enough that I could count the employees on my fingers, and we have 6 different counties of origin from that small team, and I really couldn't say that I own a tarot deck where I could pull 10 cards and get that much diversity in the people depicted on those cards, that's for sure. I also think there's like... 1 or two cards in all of my decks that look a smidge like me, if I were paler, so I can't really say that I feel terribly represented - but, as mentioned, many of those decks ARE older and I really don't hold it against them that I'm not visually represented. I would be stoked to see a Native girl in a tarot deck that wasn't just a trope, though!
gregory Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I realise she wasn't saying that; I think she has more sense - but I can see all that kicking off yet again after people see her video. I don't actually like the look of the Taussig actually.... Not for these reasons, but...
Guest libra Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I realise she wasn't saying that; I think she has more sense - but I can see all that kicking off yet again after people see her video. I don't actually like the look of the Taussig actually.... Not for these reasons, but... That feels like looking for a problem before it exists. Going through the comments of her video, it's not looking like that's the direction the conversation is going, which is good!
Day Soleil Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I think diversity of artistic representation is a really important issue for anyone who is considering creating a deck for public consumption these days. The biggest positive feedback I get on my tarot deck I'm drawing is that so many of the models have atypical body shapes and different ethnicities. Because those are the real, live people who model for life drawing - they come from all walks of life. Mine will even have Asians, Benebell, and it's not a Chinese deck, lol. I really like Benebell Wen's style on camera, she's seems so personable!
gregory Posted April 15, 2019 Posted April 15, 2019 I realise she wasn't saying that; I think she has more sense - but I can see all that kicking off yet again after people see her video. I don't actually like the look of the Taussig actually.... Not for these reasons, but... That feels like looking for a problem before it exists. Going through the comments of her video, it's not looking like that's the direction the conversation is going, which is good! I'm sure - but if that is the deck she is referencing - I looked at some of the links Saturn posted, and I actually find the look of it unappealing. Not for diversity issues - I just - don't like it. It comes over as one of those sort of "staged" decks that forces things into the card meaning. Michelangelo's David becomes 5 Swords. Why,particularly ?
Raggydoll Posted April 16, 2019 Posted April 16, 2019 I just wanted to share that I am starting to compile a big list of diverse decks and I would like everyone to help out. I feel that we need a place that highlights those creators that do strive to make a change. So please join me and help me come up with more suggestions! https://www.thetarotforum.com/tarot-decks/the-big-list-of-diverse-decks/
thinkingmystic Posted April 16, 2019 Author Posted April 16, 2019 Very important topic that I care greatly about. I need to rewatch the video when I have more time, but my guess is that she’s talking about the Alchemical visions tarot by Arthur Taussig. Thank you! I'm not sure how this was ever billed as a modern deck, gosh :bugeyed:
lauri_tarot Posted April 19, 2019 Posted April 19, 2019 Exactly what I thought? Why on earth go in the "modern and diverse!" direction with this deck? Wrong approach all around. How no one at the publisher realized that before sending out for reviews, I can't imagine. Had it been billed as what it was there would have been little controversy. What a strange approach to me.
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