3rd Party Readings

[spider]

Hope I am posting this in the correct place.

How do you feel about reading the cards for someone who has no idea you are reading for them?

I have read the cards about someone without their consent when I was young (many moons ago) and was desperate to know if someone liked me; would come back to me; was seeing someone else - all the usual anxt making stuff when one is young and "in love"!

These days I am uncomfortable reading for someone when they want to know details about another person.  I usually steer them towards "what do I need to know about my feelings towards ?; how can I improve my relationship with ? - turning their reading back on themselves.  Does that make sense?

But am I being too judgemental?  What if a person has a genuine concern for another and that person wont talk?  So many possible scenarios.  Any thoughts, ideas, guidance would be much appreciated

Thank you

[DanielJUK]

This is an ethical decision you have to decide on and live with. Personally I don't do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable with my conscience in divination.

I don't read for people without their permission but sometimes I have bent that rule, it depends on the situation. If I am really worried about someone, I have read on them but that was in the best of intentions really. If I want to know "what does something think of me?" I change that to "what do I need to know about our connection? or future connection" something like that, I have changed the focus back to my part in it. Just like your Q's they are fine, you are focussing it from you where you have consent

 

The thing to think about is how you would feel if someone was reading on you without consent, some people are fine with that. It's a personal ethical decision, some people never do it, some people do, I have to be able to justify it to myself personally 🙂

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by DanielJUK

[Barleywine]

I generally dodge the ethical question by following Eden Gray's suggestion to not ask to know the question in advance. That way, the consultation is a private one between the querent and the cards, and I just "read the signs." This avoids any subconscious experiential bias I may introduce into the reading and also maintains strict privacy in the matter unless the sitter decides to reveal aspects of it during our dialogue. So if someone asks silently "Will I get away with killing my mother?" I would ideally never know. The question could be about anything or anyone, and I'm not sure the Universe cares about motives; it will always provide information when asked in the right way. I should add that I don't do remote readings, only face-to-face in most cases.

[Eric13]

A month ago I had to refuse to do a reading because the elderly lady who came to me said, "I want to know what's going on with my daughters marriage. She won't tell me."

She was 75 so I assume her daughter was at least 30. She told me her daughter didn't know her mom was asking me this. Anyway, I got a very bad vibe from her in that matter. I tried to reform the question if there's something abusive going on, she wouldn't work with me. I told her I can't do this in good conscious and quite frankly it's none of my business. That's how I handled it, I hope others respect me for handling it that way. 

[gregory]

6 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

This is an ethical decision you have to decide on and live with. Personally I don't do anything that makes me feel uncomfortable with my conscience in divination.

I don't read for people without their permission but sometimes I have bent that rule, it depends on the situation. If I am really worried about someone, I have read on them but that was in the best of intentions really. If I want to know "what does something think of me?" I change that to "what do I need to know about our connection? or future connection" something like that, I have changed the focus back to my part in it. Just like your Q's they are fine, you are focussing it from you where you have consent

 

The thing to think about is how you would feel if someone was reading on you without consent, some people are fine with that. It's a personal ethical decision, some people never do it, some people do, I have to be able to justify it to myself personally 🙂

 

I'm right with Daniel here. Especially the "what do they think of me?" I can almost never justify it to myself. Yes sometimes other people come up in a reading - but that's not the same as "Is my daughter's husband cheating on her ?"

[Grandma]

Hi spider - 

 

Thank you for the question - it is one that comes up periodically and never fails to inspire a thoughtful discussion.  I delved into the issue with my friend Anouk several months ago, and some of the people answering you now also contributed to that December thread.  You might find it interesting.  It's long and in depth, but I immodestly think it's worth the effort to read in its entirety!

 

 Love, Grandma

 

 

[McFaire]

There are always exceptions, such as when a close friend or family member is too ill to help themselves. But the majority of the time, when the querent says, I just want to know if they are okay, it's just a thinly veiled nosiness or not being able to accept that the relationship is one-sided.

 

Seems to me, if a reader wouldn't snoop around in someone's mailbox, then they shouldn't use the cards to do so either. Most of the time, the context is some kind of romantic one and the querent really just needs to move on. If it's a close friend, then the querent should be able to talk to directly to the third party. If 3rd party has declined, then querent should accept that and butt out.

 

It's kind of pathetic when you see someone snooping around social media trying to find out something about a person who doesn't want to talk to them. Same for using the cards in this way.
 

 

 

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, spider said:

Hope I am posting this in the correct place.

How do you feel about reading the cards for someone who has no idea you are reading for them?

I have read the cards about someone without their consent when I was young (many moons ago) and was desperate to know if someone liked me; would come back to me; was seeing someone else - all the usual anxt making stuff when one is young and "in love"!

These days I am uncomfortable reading for someone when they want to know details about another person. 

Most of the questions I get involve other people. I'm fine with that. All the prohibitions against it fall apart if you think about them:
We talk about people who are not present, so why not read on them? Card reading ethics are the same as regular ethics.
As for third parties, I think Andy Boroveshengra explained it best a few years ago: I am not a party to your situation with the person you’re asking about. If you want to know if your boyfriend is seeing somebody else on the sly, he’s the second party, not the third. And what is it about a third party that makes them forbidden, anyway? If the other woman has left town, why not answer your client's question about whether it's permanent or not?

Inasmuch as we are affected by people, what they're doing is our business. I'm not talking about prying into their business out of nosiness - that would be wrong in a non-reading situation as well.
People read on presidential elections. Yes, you could classify that as "world affairs". But the fact still remains that it's a reading on other people vying for the same job. The rules should be the same whether we have a deck of cards in our hands or not.

9 hours ago, spider said:

I usually steer them towards "what do I need to know about my feelings towards ?; how can I improve my relationship with ? - turning their reading back on themselves.  Does that make sense?

 

Put yourself in the place of the client. You paid good money for a reading, but the reader refuses to answer your questions and rephrases them as something else.
I, for one, would be very annoyed, and I'd find another reader!

[Barleywine]

Way back in July of 2017, in one of my very first blog posts, I made the following observations about the kind of "psychic fishing expedition" this type of question usually entails.

 

“Tarot is the new “blind date” for the emotionally timorous, without the trepidation of actually having to follow through. It’s safe, it’s not emotionally messy and it doesn’t require nerve or opportunity.”

 

"This (post) is occasioned by the prevalence of “mind reading” questions put to the cards in the pursuit of love (aka romantic “fishing expeditions”). These are usually non-threatening substitutes for directly contacting the object of one’s assumed affections, or even asking a “friend of a friend” as we did back in the day. They are all thinly veiled versions of “Does X like/love me?” but there is feigned impartiality in the usual structure of the queries: “What does X think/feel about me?”; “Will X return my text?”; “Does X – my “ex” – want to get back together with me?” And my all-time favorite that popped up a couple of years ago on one of the “practice reading” threads on Aeclectic Tarot: “Does X want to have sex with me?” I’ll bet that one is seldom asked when face-to-face with “X.”

 

My curmudgeonly stance has softened a bit since then. But not by much.

[spider]

On 7/31/2019 at 2:15 PM, Barleywine said:

I generally dodge the ethical question by following Eden Gray's suggestion to not ask to know the question in advance. That way, the consultation is a private one between the querent and the cards, and I just "read the signs." This avoids any subconscious experiential bias I may introduce into the reading and also maintains strict privacy in the matter unless the sitter decides to reveal aspects of it during our dialogue. So if someone asks silently "Will I get away with killing my mother?" I would ideally never know. The question could be about anything or anyone, and I'm not sure the Universe cares about motives; it will always provide information when asked in the right way. I should add that I don't do remote readings, only face-to-face in most cases.

I like that idea!  I have never done face to face readings - all the readings I do are online with people I don't know.  When you are doing a reading and other people come into it, perhaps as having a negative impact on the sitter, how do you handle that?  

 

[Barleywine]

Just now, spider said:

I like that idea!  I have never done face to face readings - all the readings I do are online with people I don't know.  When you are doing a reading and other people come into it, perhaps as having a negative impact on the sitter, how do you handle that?  

 

The consequences are for the sitter directly and not abstract or idly curious (as in "How does X think or feel about me?") If I see a court card in the spread, I ask if it could represent another person first, and only after that draws a "No" will I go into psychological or universal implications. The reading isn't fundamentally about the other person but rather their (perhaps incidental) impact on the sitter. But the sitter has to tell me whether it might be relevant.

[Saturn Celeste]

21 hours ago, katrinka said:

I am not a party to your situation with the person you’re asking about. If you want to know if your boyfriend is seeing somebody else on the sly, he’s the second party, not the third. And what is it about a third party that makes them forbidden, anyway?

I'm working on such a reading now.  I do relationship readings.  I use the relationship spread.  That means I read for the sitter and their romantic interest.  I do this for pay.  If I cut out all of these relationship type readings I would not make much money.  Having a relationship reading also opens doors between you and the sitter.  I always try to work with the hope they will be a returning customer.  If you say no to people, you're just not going to get ahead unless you have a lot of traffic.

[spider]

Thank you for the replies.  I did read it all grandma, and it was an interesting read indeed.

I am still in 2 minds.  What Katrinka says makes sense.  I suppose if A was to ask the cards if her boyfriend was playing around, that's ok.  But if A can't read the cards and asks a reader to read for her on that question, there is not much difference

Does it do harm to ask the cards about someone if we are curious rather than malicious.  Is that snooping.  After all, I would ask a mutual friend for the latest news of that person.

What I absolutely refuse to do is read the cards when someone wants to know how they can get another person to do something they don't want to do, or how to bring harm to anyone.

Sorry - I am waffling.  Hope some of it makes sense

[spider]

On 7/31/2019 at 3:28 PM, Joe said:

A month ago I had to refuse to do a reading because the elderly lady who came to me said, "I want to know what's going on with my daughters marriage. She won't tell me."

She was 75 so I assume her daughter was at least 30. She told me her daughter didn't know her mom was asking me this. Anyway, I got a very bad vibe from her in that matter. I tried to reform the question if there's something abusive going on, she wouldn't work with me. I told her I can't do this in good conscious and quite frankly it's none of my business. That's how I handled it, I hope others respect me for handling it that way. 

Hi Joe

Just curious.  I can understand you not wanting to do this reading.  But I wonder if you would have felt more comfortable if you hadn't as you say "got a very bad vibe".   You mention something abusive going on.  Was this what you thought mother feared, or did you think mother may have been the abuser?

[Saturn Celeste]

59 minutes ago, spider said:

Does it do harm to ask the cards about someone if we are curious rather than malicious.  Is that snooping.

If you are the one reading the cards, and you 'snoop' with them, if you just ask the cards does so and so still love me or what is so and so doing now?  I consider that negative behavior.  If you start doing that with the tarot you can slip into an obsessive behavior which won't do anyone any good.  Be honest with yourself first.  But if you heard so and so was hurt and you wanted to look into that, then that would be ok because you were legitimately concerned. When we read tarot cards, we put intent into the questions we ask them.  If your intent is constantly for negative purposes, you might find your cards won't want to cooperate with you.  But if you read your cards with good intent, you might find you get more honest readings from your cards.  This all is here ethics come into play.  How do you feel inside when you're doing readings?  If you feel like you're invading someone's privacy, then I would suggest you do not go further with that type of a reading.

[Eric13]

@spider I felt the mother was abusive towards the daughter. 

The first thing the mother said to me was, "How does this work?" meaning tarot reading. My answer was "Tarot exists to show us we're not as free as we think we are so I bring that out through my readings."

She then said what she did about her daughter not telling her whats going on with her marriage. I instantly got a bad vibe from her, but I asked if she thinks there's something wrong a reading could help with, and I did ask her if she thinks there's abuse going on. She wouldn't say. I asked her if her daughter knew she was here asking about her marriage and she said no, and she suggested to come back with her daughter and I've never heard from her again. 

I'm a private person, I respect privacy especially in this age of social media.

If the mother had said she thinks her daughters being abused, or her husband cheating, or maybe the wife is the abuser and cheater, I would not hesitate to do the reading. But the way she put it, and hey, maybe she just had her own hangups about doing a tarot card reading, but whats going on in a grown womans marriage really isn't anyone's business either. So I will go with only ordering a small order of fries instead of a large order. 

[katrinka]

49 minutes ago, spider said:

Thank you for the replies.  I did read it all grandma, and it was an interesting read indeed.

I am still in 2 minds.  What Katrinka says makes sense.  I suppose if A was to ask the cards if her boyfriend was playing around, that's ok.  But if A can't read the cards and asks a reader to read for her on that question, there is not much difference

Exactly.

49 minutes ago, spider said:

Does it do harm to ask the cards about someone if we are curious rather than malicious.  Is that snooping.  After all, I would ask a mutual friend for the latest news of that person.

"How is X doing?" is fine. Questions like that are usually asked out of concern.
Asking if a lady the sitter barely even knows is stepping out on her husband is just being nosy.

Or a gay sitter might ask you if a person who's caught their interest is gay. That's fine.
Asking if someone is gay for scandal-mongering purposes is not OK. Etc.

49 minutes ago, spider said:

What I absolutely refuse to do is read the cards when someone wants to know how they can get another person to do something they don't want to do, or how to bring harm to anyone.

Sorry - I am waffling.  Hope some of it makes sense

It does.
Again, it's the same as your regular ethics. You wouldn't help someone rape, stalk, etc. in a non-reading situation.
If someone asked how to get their child to brush his teeth or pick up his toys, that's another matter. 😉

[Barleywine]

I've been thinking about the opinion that was attributed to Andy B, and have decided that I agree with it. I just made a blog post about it:

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/08/06/the-party-of-the-third-part/

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, Barleywine said:

I've been thinking about the opinion that was attributed to Andy B, and have decided that I agree with it. I just made a blog post about it:

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/08/06/the-party-of-the-third-part/

Exactly this. It depends entirely on the motive for asking. Suppose Z is Y's boss, rather than spouse or partner. Or a relative with health issues. Anyone who can impact Y's state of mind and wellbeing, which in turn impacts X. I'd read on that even though in that case Z is a third party. Reading on third parties isn't unethical in itself, helping a client wreck a happy marriage is.

[bastetly]

@Barleywine, I read your blog post and it seems to me your first question about your effectiveness to "mind-read" another absent party w the cards, isn't really answered by determining whether you are the 2nd, 3rd, or no-party at all to the situation.  Did I miss something?

[Barleywine]

2 hours ago, bastetly said:

@Barleywine, I read your blog post and it seems to me your first question about your effectiveness to "mind-read" another absent party w the cards, isn't really answered by determining whether you are the 2nd, 3rd, or no-party at all to the situation.  Did I miss something?

I get myself in trouble on the forums every time I bring that subject up, so what you noted was just a passing comment. I addressed the topic of "psychic fishing expeditions"  at some length in this old blog post:

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2018/03/15/a-good-question/

 

I also made the following observations in another post on "psychological profiling" with the tarot:

 

". . . attempting to pin down someone’s current mental state via the cards resembles trying get a grip on a writhing snake. Those of you who have ever tried to hold one in your hands will know what I’m talking about. Thoughts and emotions are too ephemeral and slippery to submit to predictive certainty; actions, on the other hand, speak for themselves. As Bob Dylan once wrote: “You don’t need a weatherman to see which way the wind blows.”

Edited August 6, 2019 by Barleywine

[chongjasmine]

For me, I have no problem with doing 3rd party readings.

But I generally prefer not to.