What Happened To The Virtues?

[fire cat pickles]

11 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

Is that not a theory that’s also presented in a book? I’m pretty sure I have it in my collection 🤔 One of the books discussing tarot history... I can check later if you like. 

 

 Yes, please 🙂

 

[Raggydoll]

8 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

 

 Yes, please 🙂

 

I found it. The mystical origins of the tarot, by Paul Huson. I’m thinking it could be what you’re looking for. 

[Barleywine]

2 hours ago, Marigold said:

Just curious. Why would it be important to have to designate and find these virtues ? Of course, if it's just to enhance one's own understanding of the cards, I reckon that's good 'cos we need all sorts of tools to interpret the Tarot. But of itself, is it important ?

I agree, and the subject is not really so simple. The Romans had a whopping 24 of them, each symbolized by a deity.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue

Edited August 25, 2019 by Barleywine

[Guest]

The issue with identifying a source for the tarot cards is that the icons are extremely generic concepts present in late medieval and early modern Europe. 

 

An absence of an explicit representation of prudence might be explained by the view that it was chariot of the virtues, an idea found in both the early church fathers and Thomas Aquinas. There are also illuminations that presents prudence as justice, too.

 

Although arguments can be made for both la papesse and l’ermite there are indications that these are not sound. For the former it does not explain the liturgical clothing, and l’ermite doesn’t contain iconography much indicative of reason. 

[Barleywine]

I'm going to throw a big rock in the pond here with my own random thoughts. I was so intrigued by the list of 24 Roman virtues that I decided to try matching trump and pip cards up to all of them, using the RWS images as my basis. Many of them hang together OK, others wander into SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess) territory. I used the Tarot of the Sevenfold Mystery for the graphic because of its Neoclassical appearance, but it does confound my intentions just a little.

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/08/26/virtue-is-as-virtue-does/

[reall]

Imo faith is hierophant/pope & hanged man prudence? That's what I remember reading somewhere about old marselj deck that hanged was actually standing up but falling into a trap or something?;) also about virtues there is this old deck I forgot that had around 40! & this old dice game list I like; https://secret-tarot-garden.com/2019/03/10/the-bishops-inspiration/

Eta; @Barleywine luv your list!:)

Edited August 26, 2019 by reall

[fire cat pickles]

Here's an old post from aeclectic (I finally found) :

 

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=132931

 

It was very well received, as you can see...

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, reall said:

Imo faith is hierophant/pope & hanged man prudence? That's what I remember reading somewhere about old marselj deck that hanged was actually standing up but falling into a trap or something?;) also about virtues there is this old deck I forgot that had around 40! & this old dice game list I like; https://secret-tarot-garden.com/2019/03/10/the-bishops-inspiration/

Eta; @Barleywine luv your list!:)

Le pendu has indeed been advocated as prudence.  Some advocate based on public executions, et cetera.  

 

The issue, however, is that it presupposes action or motivation not evidenced in the cards.  There is no extant deck that provides iconography to suggest what the figure was during 'before' his hanging.

 

38 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Here's an old post from aeclectic (I finally found) :

 

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=132931

 

It was very well received, as you can see...

They are all reasonable and interesting advocations.  

 

1 hour ago, Barleywine said:

I'm going to throw a big rock in the pond here with my own random thoughts. I was so intrigued by the list of 24 Roman virtues that I decided to try matching trump and pip cards up to all of them, using the RWS images as my basis. Many of them hang together OK, others wander into SWAG (scientific wild-ass guess) territory. I used the Tarot of the Sevenfold Mystery for the graphic because of its Neoclassical appearance, but it does confound my intentions just a little.

 

https://parsifalswheeldivination.com/2019/08/26/virtue-is-as-virtue-does/

 I will book mark this for later 🙂

[Barleywine]

2 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

 I will book mark this for later 🙂

I'm aware that some of the old Italian decks included a number of non-Christian virtues beyond the ones we're discussing here. I made a post on the Tarot History FB page asking if anyone can point me at them.

[Barleywine]

4 hours ago, reall said:

also about virtues there is this old deck I forgot that had around 40! & this old dice game list I like; https://secret-tarot-garden.com/2019/03/10/the-bishops-inspiration/

Eta; @Barleywine luv your list!:)

Thanks! I tweaked it a number of times since I posted it here to add more of the rationale for some of my choices.

[Marigold]

So I went to read the Wikipedia page on Prudence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence. It's interesting. Worth reading to remind oneself what Prudence was (as compared to today also) and to learn some new stuff that one may not know. I think it (and maybe the pages on the other virtues) should assist those who want to put virtues on the cards. (It's an interesting tarotic exercise even if I don't think they're there to be found literally speaking.)

[Guest]

Well suggested, Marigold. There is a difference between the contemporary and late medieval and early modern understanding of all four virtues.

 

Most of the early church fathers, and others such as Aquinas and Erasmus, should be available online.  

 

Personally, I don’t believe prudence is included in the 21-trumps. 

[fire cat pickles]

On 8/25/2019 at 9:54 AM, leroidetrèfle said:

The issue with identifying a source for the tarot cards is that the icons are extremely generic concepts present in late medieval and early modern Europe. 

 

An absence of an explicit representation of prudence might be explained by the view that it was chariot of the virtues, an idea found in both the early church fathers and Thomas Aquinas. There are also illuminations that presents prudence as justice, too.

 

Although arguments can be made for both la papesse and l’ermite there are indications that these are not sound. For the former it does not explain the liturgical clothing, and l’ermite doesn’t contain iconography much indicative of reason. 

 

1 hour ago, Marigold said:

So I went to read the Wikipedia page on Prudence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prudence. It's interesting. Worth reading to remind oneself what Prudence was (as compared to today also) and to learn some new stuff that one may not know. I think it (and maybe the pages on the other virtues) should assist those who want to put virtues on the cards. (It's an interesting tarotic exercise even if I don't think they're there to be found literally speaking.)

 

1 hour ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Well suggested, Marigold. There is a difference between the contemporary and late medieval and early modern understanding of all four virtues.

 

Most of the early church fathers, and others such as Aquinas and Erasmus, should be available online.  

 

Personally, I don’t believe prudence is included in the 21-trumps. 

 

More on Prudence as not directly included in the 21-trumps, as it was considered one of the Intellectual virtues and separate from the Cardinal: 

https://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft4m3nb2n4&chunk.id=d0e4855&toc.depth=1&toc.id=d0e4620&brand=ucpress;query=prudence#26

 

Obviously there were no "Science, Sapiens, or Entendement" either,  in tarot.

 

Although there is a good argument on p. 127 that Prudence could be included in Justice,

"In Aristotle's ethical system,  Prudence  has a key role, as it embodies "the power of good deliberation" in human affairs. Practical Wisdom guides activity in both individual and political affairs through reason 'with regard to things good and bad for men.' As noted earlier, this type of wisdom, one of the four cardinal virtues, had for obvious reasons long been associated with the ideal ruler. "

 

 

Edited August 26, 2019 by fire cat pickles

[Marigold]

7 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

 

 

 

 

There is a good argument on p. 127 that Prudence could be included in Justice, though:

 

When I was reading up on Prudence earlier, I saw two references which said that there has been known to be a connection. One said that they are sometimes "paired". I didn't however check the sources - if there were any. Sometimes people spout things without giving references and sometimes they copy erroneous stuff from other websites. It's hugely annoying. 

[fire cat pickles]

It's always nice to have references.

[reall]

I luv references!;) imo it's hanged man but not necessary presented correctly?;)

argument next to justice & just read wiki even if it say female it also mention snake so what if lasso around leg was originally snake our unsuspecting virtue step on walking careless with hands on its back or looking into mirror(there is halo around Le pendu head what if that's mirror frame?;) it's a stretch but i like good story!^^

also hope someone will give us full deck of vices & virtues oracle with meanings & all!^^ personally i'm looking for good colored glass art!;D

[Marigold]

51 minutes ago, reall said:

I

argument next to justice & just read wiki even if it say female it also mention snake so what if lasso around leg was originally snake our

On a completely unrelated subject to this one, yesterday I was doing some research on something (can't remember what) and I remember thinking "hmm... that rope around Justice could therefore very well have some connection to a snake". I wish I could remember now what led me to thinking this. It had nothing to do with Prudence. But as I also like you came near to this theory for some reason or other (I'm sure it was a decent one) this may be a path to follow. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by Marigold

[reall]

12 hours ago, Marigold said:

On a completely unrelated subject to this one, yesterday I was doing some research on something (can't remember what) and I remember thinking "hmm... that rope around Justice could therefore very well have some connection to a snake". I wish I could remember now what led me to thinking this. It had nothing to do with Prudence. But as I also like you came near to this theory for some reason or other (I'm sure it was a decent one) this may be a path to follow. 

hehe, i like idea these 2 cards were connected by a snake side by side!;)

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, reall said:

hehe, i like idea these 2 cards were connected by a snake side by side!;)

Of course there is a rope to take into account in the Hanged Man. 

[reall]

that's why I like Old Masters Art it's priceless puzzle by itself!;D

[Marigold]

1 hour ago, Ruby Jewel said:

A most interesting read on the virtues of Christian Hermeticism is "Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism" by an author who chooses to be "Anonymous." I believe he was a Cardinal in the Catholic church who died a few years back. He addresses the reader as "Dear Unknown Friend" whom he greets from "beyond the grave."

It was written by Valentin Tomberg, but was indeed published anonymously.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentin_Tomberg

 

A pdf of the book in English can be found here : http://tarothermeneutics.com/tarotliterature/MOTT/Meditations-on-the-Tarot.pdf

[reall]

Wow! I like recommendation & free book Thank You!;D

 

also just for archive sake here is list of virtues I've find recently & it says 172 listed & there should be 212!x,x lol

http://www.marysrosaries.com/collaboration/index.php?title=Category:Virtues

[Marigold]

2 hours ago, Ruby Jewel said:

Thank you so much for that very interesting and enlightening link to this fellow. He has given me so much insight into the major arcana. For instance, the real meaning of Justice as "forgiveness" and also Solomon's wisdom regarding the "veil of mirages"....... behind the High Priestess. One might expect such wisdom from a Pisces individual. Have you by chance read the book?

I read it many years ago (in French). I feel like rereading it again now. When you mention for instance of Justice as forgiveness, that rings so clear. I'm sure there must be loads of wonderful things one can ponder and meditate on. His book certainly made its mark, also of course due to its anonymous and posthumous aspect. Sort of created a buzz. I don't think Tomberg's aim was to create a buzz though. It was just inevitable. I've just read that the English edition is even better than the French edition, as it follows more closely the original manuscript.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Marigold

[Marigold]

6 hours ago, Ruby Jewel said:

Marigold, I'm thinking of posting for a Study Group on this book. If I do so, I would like to use these links that you sent to me, but I don't want to post them myself as they are to your credit and not mine. From the bottom paper clip here, it looks as though I could "drag" you posting to the Study Group post, but I'm not sure about that as I haven't tried it before. However, with your permission I may attempt it. Otherwise, perhaps you would oblige me here by posting it yourself in the Group post. If you agree, I will open the Study Group......thanks. Ruby Jewel.

Oh my, they're not my links nor are they to my credit. And even if they were personal, I'm a copyleft person and private property is anathema to me so once I've shared my ideas they belong to everyone and I hold no ownership over them. (Even if someone copied exact posts of mine and said they were their ideas, I wouldn't care.. As long as ideas circulate freely, all good). So go ahead and copy whatever you want. No need to mention my name. 

 

Good luck with your study group. Sounds like a great idea. I may follow it on the sidelines and pop in from time to time if I have something to say that I think may of interest. 

 

One more link : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations_on_the_Tarot

 

Keep in mind of course when you're studying this, that Tomberg was hugely influenced by his conversion to Catholicism. 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Marigold