Counterfeit Decks

[EmpyreanKnight]

Like, if you were lusting after a very rare OOP deck for quite some time and what is currently available through Amazon/eBay/etc are horrendously, brazenly priced, and suddenly you spot a copy that's clearly counterfeit but does not really differ from the original quality-wise, would you give it a go? Or you found a bunch of knock-offs of popular decks that are compellingly, temptingly-priced, would you give in? In what cases might you be persuaded to buy an imitation Tarot deck?

 

Altho the decks that I like are very rarely available locally (I think I had to import around 70% of my collection), I have never bought a bogus deck. Maybe that's because they are quite scarce here too lol. But sometimes, the prices of OOP decks are just so annoying that I would often find myself thinking that I'd like to stick it to the sellers. I know, that's quite horrible of me, right? ;)

[Onaorkal]

As tempting as it would be, I wouldn't buy a counterfeit deck either.

 

I know some people won't agree and say something like ''If I do it only for decks that would otherwise be unavailable, it's not as if I was hurting the artist in anyway'' but it's still encouraging thievery and artwork appropriation.

 

I don't think I would be able to use the deck knowing it was 'made' with those bad intentions in mind.

 

A last thought : it's not like any tarot deck (or artwork or whatever object used for entertainment) is necessary for us to survive. If it's OOP and can't be found at all or for a ridiculous price, so be it. Not a good reason to buy counterfeit for sure!  ;)

[katrinka]

I've never seen a counterfeit that wasn't inferior quality.

And I wouldn't buy a counterfeit unless the artist was long dead and it rightfully belongs in the Public Domain anyway.

[RavenOfSummer]

Yeah, I'm in agreement with everyone else here. Even if the fake was high-quality (which, in all likelihood, it wouldn't be), I would always know it wasn't the real deal, and that would keep me from really enjoying it. I feel certain it would just have a bad energy around it for me. Like others have said, I don't like the idea of someone else profiting off of something they did not create- it feels wrong.

 

So I would prefer to live without, or bide my time until I can connect with a real deck at a price that works for me. And the latter has happened in my experience. In my short time being a part of it I've found that the tarot community is so great, and that magical things tend to happen in it :)

[EmpyreanKnight]

Yikes I guess my moral compass might need some tuning. For me, a deck is a deck, and if it moves and inspires me, then I'd have no compunction using it. PROVIDED tho that I find it visually, physically, and tactilely pleasant. As you've all surmised, it's highly probable that counterfeit decks would be of inferior quality. In that case, I'd rather pay more and buy the original if its price won't push me into a roid rage. :P

 

I've been surfing some sites here which import products from China (which is almost our next-door neighbor) and whew it's like Tarot knock-off central there. None of them is even significantly cheaper, like most are 60+% of the original price. Yeah I don't think I'd patronize an ersatz Chinese deck anytime soon.

 

I'm so curious about these decks tho. I mean, about how they really are like. Anyway, has anyone here been victimized by a bogus seller?

[chongjasmine]

I wouldn't buy a counterfeit deck under any circumstances.

Not ever.

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

Like, if you were lusting after a very rare OOP deck for quite some time and what is currently available through Amazon/eBay/etc are horrendously, brazenly priced, and suddenly you spot a copy that's clearly counterfeit but does not really differ from the original quality-wise, would you give it a go? Or you found a bunch of knock-offs of popular decks that are compellingly, temptingly-priced, would you give in? In what cases might you be persuaded to buy an imitation Tarot deck?

 

Altho the decks that I like are very rarely available locally (I think I had to import around 70% of my collection), I have never bought a bogus deck. Maybe that's because they are quite scarce here too lol. But sometimes, the prices of OOP decks are just so annoying that I would often find myself thinking that I'd like to stick it to the sellers. I know, that's quite horrible of me, right? ;)

 

If you buy counterfeit decks  you are not sticking it to the people who are selling OOP decks -  you are sticking it to the original makers and creators.

 

Believe me, we spend years on some of our decks and we don't exactly make a fortune out of them. Having someone counterfeit them and steal the work is the most awful experience. If there are cheap knock-offs about, how can a creator reprint and earn some more from their own work? Ever had the experience of seeing someone on a forum talk about how CRAP your print quality and cardstock are and then gradually realise they are talking about a counterfeit? You know what that does to a creator's reputation - not to mention the gut-punch it is to see your work knocked out cheap and horrible?

 

Believe me, counterfeiting is a nasty business.

 

[EmpyreanKnight]

Ack, I guess someone has tried to pirate Baba Studio decks? I hope you caught them. :-\

[DevonCarter]

I am in another hobby where there has been a years-long constant fight debate about legit versus knockoffs. It's come down to "these are individual artists and very small companies with a low profit margin and knockoffs are hurting them and the hobby, several companies have already gone out of business because of this and it's getting worse every day, and now people are super-wary of the secondhand market as well" versus "but they're expensive and I'm poor and I want one! Stop hating on me! It doesn't matter! It's not stealing! I'm not a thief! Haven't you ever downloaded a song or movie or something that was bootleg, or bought a fake Coach purse? Just one isn't going to take money out of anyone's pocket! You're being ELITIST!"  ::)

 

I'm in the "stealing is bad, mmmmkay" camp, myself. As for decks, I'm new enough not to have come across (or realized, if I did) any counterfeits, but I'd be wary of them. Maybe, possibly, if it was some really really old out of print deck where the artist has long since passed away or is unknown or something, AND it was truly amazing, I might consider it. But if there's any reasonable way of getting a legit version, I'd prefer that. There are so many great decks available for reasonable prices as-is, I don't really see a need to buy a counterfeit.

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

Ack, I guess someone has tried to pirate Baba Studio decks? I hope you caught them. :-\

 

We've been bootlegged numerous times and it has been extremely costly in terms of both money and time. Last year we had to use a specialist lawyer in London and finally settled out of court with one (quite large) company which counterfeiting our Victorian Romantic Tarot and put its own logo on it. To make it worse they were not a company we would want in any way to be associated with.

 

Counterfeiting hurts artists and authors - a great deal in many cases. Everyone has to decide, as an individual, whether they are okay with that.

[RavenOfSummer]

It also seems like there is maybe not that much awareness in parts of the community of the prevalence of counterfeit decks? Last week there was a discussion going on in a Facebook group- a woman had purchased a copy of the Deviant Moon from a Ukraine-based seller on Ebay. She was first given a tracking number that didn't work, and then when the deck didn't show up for several weeks the buyer requested a refund, which the seller gave her. Finally the deck DID arrive. A lot of members of the group were saying the buyer had STOLEN this deck from the seller and that she needed to pay for it, since she had gotten a refund and then received the deck.

 

But, in reading this woman's description, it was immediately obvious to me that the deck she bought was a counterfeit. First of all, Ukraine seems to be a hotbed of fake decks on Ebay. (To get an idea what I mean, just search there for the OOP Buckland Romani Tarot. You'll see a number of very cheap decks come up- all from Ukraine.) Next, the woman mentioned the deck was indeed extremely cheap, much cheaper than anything she had seen locally or on Amazon etc (she is in Canada), which is why she decided to purchase this copy. (I know the Deviant Moon is an in-print, mass market deck, but apparently she still wanted something cheaper.) Finally, the "new, sealed" deck arrived to her with the cards in a random order. Now, we've all bought new decks from US Games and other major publishers. And the cards NEVER arrive out of order. They are ALWAYS ordered through the majors and the suits. This woman also mentioned that she thought the deck seemed low quality but she wasn't sure.

 

So, I weighed in and said she didn't owe this seller anything- THEY were obviously scamming both the artists/publishers on one end and the customers on the other, and the only thing she should do was be more careful buying decks in the future so she wasn't feeding into the scam. I thought it was VERY obvious based on her information that the deck was a fake, but several people jumped on me, saying I didn't have any evidence the deck was a fake and I was just trying to justify her "theft" of the deck.

 

Long story short, I think it would be helpful if perhaps some deck creators (could be a gathering of both large and independent publishers, artists, etc) could come together to put out some sort of statement on deck counterfeiting. Not sure if something like that exists but I haven't come across one. It could maybe lay out how counterfeiting really hurts the artists and publishers and makes it more difficult for decks to stay in print and for new decks to be made. Not to mention buyers are getting an ultimately valueless item, so it hurts everyone involved. And maybe some sort of suggestions/buying guide/precautions for buying decks from third parties? I know some people still wouldn't care, but maybe elevating this as an issue in the community would help in some way.

[katrinka]

We've been bootlegged numerous times and it has been extremely costly in terms of both money and time. Last year we had to use a specialist lawyer in London and finally settled out of court with one (quite large) company which counterfeiting our Victorian Romantic Tarot and put its own logo on it. To make it worse they were not a company we would want in any way to be associated with.

 

What a sleazy piece of work that company is.

And a perfect example of a poor quality bootleg - the cheapness came through in the photo they used for their own ad. The colors were way off. It looked like something from Dollar Tree.

[EmpyreanKnight]

Ack, I guess someone has tried to pirate Baba Studio decks? I hope you caught them. :-\

 

We've been bootlegged numerous times and it has been extremely costly in terms of both money and time. Last year we had to use a specialist lawyer in London and finally settled out of court with one (quite large) company which counterfeiting our Victorian Romantic Tarot and put its own logo on it. To make it worse they were not a company we would want in any way to be associated with.

 

Counterfeiting hurts artists and authors - a great deal in many cases. Everyone has to decide, as an individual, whether they are okay with that.

 

Thank you so much for providing a much-needed perspective regarding imitation decks, Baba. And my apologies if I sounded too glib or flippant in my comments. These are people's livelihoods we are talking about, and I would never wish to add to the anguish you experienced by sounding as if I couldn't care less. I haven't had the pleasure of reading any of your decks, but I'm 100% sure that I shall do so in the future.

[Baba Studio - Bababarock]

Yes, Katrinka, a cheaply produced deck with THEIR logo all over it. I was tempted to take them all the way to court, but we did settle outside court in the end.

 

As for the countries it comes from - very often Bulgaria, Ukraine, Russia and China. I have said it again and again and get totally ignored  ;) but if you send a deck to be printed in China and if/when it's successful, they WILL try to sell the files on to anyone who wants to bootleg it. DO NOT PRINT IN CHINA is what we have learned (unless you are a really big publisher and have a lot of business that they don't want to lose). But all we can do is warn, and if other small deck creators still choose to print in China, I hope they won't go through what we have been through.

 

Making statements? Yes, we have discussed this many times on our Baba Studio Facebook and I know others have discussed it on their pages too. I haven't seen anything where all publishers get together but I have seen numerous people discussing how they have been damaged by it. I'm not sure a joint statement would be better than lots of individual ones, and I'm also not sure who would organise it and agree wording etc. The sheer organisation of something like that is off-putting and as I say, I think the almost continual discussion of this in public is just as useful in making people aware of the scale of the problem.

 

However, if someone did want to organise a joint statement, we would be happy to take part.

 

 

[chongjasmine]

Yes, Katrinka, a cheaply produced deck with THEIR logo all over it. I was tempted to take them all the way to court, but we did settle outside court in the end.

 

As for the countries it comes from - very often Bulgaria, Ukraine, Russia and China. I have said it again and again and get totally ignored  ;) but if you send a deck to be printed in China and if/when it's successful, they WILL try to sell the files on to anyone who wants to bootleg it. DO NOT PRINT IN CHINA is what we have learned (unless you are a really big publisher and have a lot of business that they don't want to lose). But all we can do is warn, and if other small deck creators still choose to print in China, I hope they won't go through what we have been through.

 

Making statements? Yes, we have discussed this many times on our Baba Studio Facebook and I know others have discussed it on their pages too. I haven't seen anything where all publishers get together but I have seen numerous people discussing how they have been damaged by it. I'm not sure a joint statement would be better than lots of individual ones, and I'm also not sure who would organise it and agree wording etc. The sheer organisation of something like that is off-putting and as I say, I think the almost continual discussion of this in public is just as useful in making people aware of the scale of the problem.

 

However, if someone did want to organise a joint statement, we would be happy to take part.

 

Really sorry to hear about your experiences.

[ayuryogini]

.......

Believe me, we spend years on some of our decks and we don't exactly make a fortune out of them. Having someone counterfeit them and steal the work is the most awful experience. If there are cheap knock-offs about, how can a creator reprint and earn some more from their own work? Ever had the experience of seeing someone on a forum talk about how CRAP your print quality and cardstock are and then gradually realise they are talking about a counterfeit? You know what that does to a creator's reputation - not to mention the gut-punch it is to see your work knocked out cheap and horrible?

 

Believe me, counterfeiting is a nasty business.

 

That must feel like a gut punch. I've been trying to decide about purchasing a particular deck, not knowing what the cardstock is like, and had the thought, "I wish all cardstock was like Baba Studios." To put so much care into the creation of your product and see it desecrated has to feel awful.

[katrinka]

It just goes to show that a deck is so much more than a set of image scans.

I've never seen a pirated Victorian Romantic in person, but I can guess that the stock can't touch the suppleness of the original. I can guess that a lot of the fine lines from the old steel engravings were lost. And I can guess that it would evoke images of exploitation: Chinese sweatshops, and bad "psychic" websites that operate like sex cam sites. Not care, artistry, intelligence and European craftsmanship like the original.

[Page of Ghosts]

No, I wouldn't buy a counterfeit deck. I don't have the largest tarot budget and imagine about 40-50 $ + shipping would be the most I could pay for a deck. It would have to be really special for me to use that amount so usually it's a bit under that. There are a lot of interesting and beautiful decks in my price range by big publishers as well as some indies I could afford within my upper limit so I wouldn't say I suffer in any way because of this. Some decks are indies and OOP and out of my league and I've accepted that I can't have them.

[Trogon]

I wouldn't knowingly buy a counterfeit deck. Like others, I would probably not feel good trying to read with it. And, as Bababarock has eloquently explained, the entire community, artists, publishers and collectors, are all hurt by this. Besides, working in law enforcement, it probably isn't really a good idea for me to knowingly purchase pirated material.

 

Very good discussion. I am very curious as to what specific publisher might have been discussed in this thread. It could be useful information when I see other items of theirs in the future which seem to be "reissues" of OOP decks. Perhaps someone could PM me?

[EmpyreanKnight]

PM sent

[gregory]

Virtual Tarot is one to avoid like the plague...

[EmpyreanKnight]

Sorta related to this but I guess you've heard of the adage that your very first Tarot deck must have been given to you by someone else so that it would be very powerful. Well I just read that the real legend says that you should never buy your first deck, and that the gift thingy was only a subset of this condition. Going by this vein, another way to get a highly potent deck is to steal it. :o

 

I tried looking for this one on other Tarot sites and without much effort, I found four sites that mentioned it while severely escoriating the practice. I've heard somewhere that the real reason why US Games introduced premium sets (Tarot deck + illustrated spread poster in a big box) was to deter thieves from stealing displayed decks.

[Trogon]

I've heard (and read in a book or two, as well as various web sites) about having to be gifted with your first deck. Humbug! Humbug I say!

 

This was a pretty common topic on the old AT Forums and the general consensus has been that it is fine to buy your first deck. I've always felt that it was kind of a gate-keeper-ey kind of thing ... a way to keep the rabble away from your domain. Of course, having said that, I have gifted about 3 copies of the Universal Waite, and gave money to a friend on-line for his first deck. Not because it makes the deck more powerful, but just that I like to help people who are interested enough in the Tarot ...

 

But this is wandering a bit off topic now I guess.

 

And yes, I've always felt that a stolen deck would carry some fairly negative energy. And I do feel that a counterfeit deck would be about the same ...

[EmpyreanKnight]

I don't exactly subscribe to that belief either, tho to cover my bases I did sorta make my mom buy me my very first deck as a gift. ;D But kudos to giving Tarot decks as gifts to those who want to explore it, Trogon. You're a good un. :)

[DevonCarter]

If I'd wait to be gifted a deck, I would never ever get one, I'm sure. And I would think that stealing one would be pretty terrible... I'm not sure I'd want someone with ethics that allow stealing to be doing readings for potentially vulnerable people.