Prophetic tarot VS healing tarot. Your thoughts on this?

January 27, 2020

1 hour ago, theholysticvagabond said:

Thanks for sharing your story and I'm sorry for your loss.

I guess we won't have the answer of this last questionnement, but we can just keeping faith that there is a good reason behind everything and at least we're trying our best.

💗💗💗

January 27, 2020

2 hours ago, theholysticvagabond said:

At the end, I think we're all having the same goals with tarot. We just have different words for it: predictions, fortunetelling, healing, advising, warning.

There's a good amount of overlap, I agree. Sometimes we're just arguing semantics, only to find that we actually do agree on one point or another.
And in a very broad sense, you could say that we all share the goal of trying to be of assistance. But as far as the kind of information we're trying to get from a reading, I'm seeing different goals. For example, a client asks if their ex will come back. Some readers, myself included, will answer that.

Others will refuse and change the question to "What can X do to heal from this breakup?" or "How can X let go and move on?" With the first approach, you're trying to find out what will happen. With the second, you're looking for advice. (And how do you know the client needs to "heal", "let go", or "move on" if you haven't even verified that the relationship is truly over? A lot of people do break up and get back together.)

Quote

The only real difference I can tell is that we're not having the same level of confidence about seeing the future. Maybe it's a matter of experience, or just different type of faiths. I don't know.

Experience has a lot to do with it. Card reading, rationally, should not work. But when you've seen it work time and time again over the years, you learn to trust it more. I certainly trust experience more than I do information that gets endlessly repeated on sketchy blogs. 😉

I don't think it's faith. Readers can come from any religion, or no religion at all. And the very definition of faith requires belief in something that you don't know for a fact. There is no empirical proof that there will be a rapture, for instance, but a lot of people believe there will.

Edited January 27, 2020 by katrinka

January 27, 2020

8 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I don't think it's faith. Readers can come from any religion, or no religion at all. And the very definition of faith requires belief in something that you don't know for a fact. There is no empirical proof that there will be a rapture, for instance, but a lot of people believe there will.

Faith requires belief in something that you don't know for a fact.

Um - WELL - how can we honestly say we know for a fact that tarot "works". I have had this argument with my mother who cannot understand that I take it seriously when I don't believe in god. But I do believe it works. I have FAITH in it. I absolutely cannot PROVE it.

Yup - semantics.

January 28, 2020

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Um - WELL - how can we honestly say we know for a fact that tarot "works". I have had this argument with my mother who cannot understand that I take it seriously when I don't believe in god. But I do believe it works. I have FAITH in it. I absolutely cannot PROVE it.

You have a point, kind of.
I've seen it work at least 85-90% of the time for almost half a century. That's a better track record than the TV weatherman, I think. But I don't know for a fact that this isn't a glitch. I suppose it could suddenly STOP working.

There have been a few times that I grabbed a hot pan without a potholder, and it's burned. I don't know that it will burn next time since "next time" hasn't happened yet, but I have faith that it will. 😆

As for God, she's presupposing that God or spirits are what make Tarot work.
What if it's the nature of time, or something else that we haven't even thought of yet?
And by saying that you have to believe in God in order for it to work, she's admitting it can work.

January 28, 2020

On 1/27/2020 at 12:46 AM, katrinka said:

"Set in stone"? Where did that even come from?

At first I was miffed at this comment. It was like "what do you mean where did that come from?? It's the whole point do we tell people what is likely based on the present? Or do we tell them what their future will hold???" And so I stepped back and started thinking about it.. When a weather man predicts the weather, he tells you percentages of likelihood, and yet we still call this "predicting". It began kind of hitting me that perhaps many people in the world of Tarot think it is just a given that no prediction is "set in stone", and yet for an outsider? I think that IS the misunderstanding for some of us. It made me start thinking like... "well if all predictions are mere likelihoods then all predictions are really looking more into the present than looking AT the future".

And that's when I realized I may even be completely off topic now, because this whole thread wasn't even about the nature of future predicting, and whether it is telling what will be as opposed to looking at what is and seeing what is likely should things continue. And that's when I decided topics like these may just be too much for me and perhaps I should just sit on the side and let the adults handle it 🤣 For real though every time these kinds of things break out I wind up confused and wondering what we're even talking about anymore by the end of it bwahaha It's all good, I'll just grab some popcorn and watch the show from here on out 😄

Edited January 28, 2020 by Symph

January 28, 2020

21 hours ago, katrinka said:

As for God, she's presupposing that God or spirits are what make Tarot work.
What if it's the nature of time, or something else that we haven't even thought of yet?
And by saying that you have to believe in God in order for it to work, she's admitting it can work.

No she isn't. What she can't get is how I can believe in one unprovable thing and refuse to believe in another equally unprovable thing. She is quite certain tarot doesn't work, that it's nonsense. But if I know that it isn't nonsense I must obviously also accept that god isn't nonsense too. Her logic is deeply flawed, I do realise that. But that's how she sees it - I think the idea is that as god is much more believable (yeah RIGHT....) then as I accept something even less believable, everything more believable is OK by definition, and so clearly I believe the lot..

It's hard work, but I don't see her often ! :rofl:

Edited January 28, 2020 by gregory

January 28, 2020

40 minutes ago, gregory said:

It's hard work, but I don't see her often !

I get that. I don't even try to change my mom's ideas. If she was younger I would, because the world would be a much better place for all of us if fewer people were brainwashed by FOX news and TV preachers. But she's in her 80's. She won't be around much longer, she wouldn't be convinced, and there's a good chance she'd stroke out or something. I don't want to be the cause of that.

And, like you, I don't see her often!

January 28, 2020

Mine's 100, has NPD, is quite the nasty bit of work and always has been. At least she no longer gets away with pitting her three daughters against each other - email is a wonderful thing - it takes seconds to tell each other I NEVER SAID THAT - and it bugs the hell out of her. "You spoke to your sister ?" "Yes of course, we chat every day." "Oh..." !

Please to excuse :170:

But the faith thing holds. I believe in tarot, and that is a faith thing, even though I don't see tarot as a religion.

Edited January 28, 2020 by gregory

January 28, 2020

24 minutes ago, gregory said:

Mine's 100, has NPD, is quite the nasty bit of work and always has been. At least she no longer gets away with pitting her three daughters against each other - email is a wonderful thing - it takes seconds to tell each other I NEVER SAID THAT - and it bugs the hell out of her. "You spoke to your sister ?" "Yes of course, we chat every day." "Oh..." !

Please to excuse

Yikes.
I was lucky in a way - mine didn't raise me. I was adopted and didn't find her until I was in my 40's.

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But the faith thing holds. I believe in tarot, and that is a faith thing, even though I don't see tarot as a religion.

Tarot-as-religion isn't my thing, either. The older decks sometimes seem to subtly poke fun at religion. But if it helps some poor sap get a deck in the penitentiary, more power to 'em.

I've seen Tarot work again and again...that's not a peer-reviewed study, obviously, but I don't think it's 100% faith, either.
I'm superstitious, though. Why walk under a ladder when you can go around it? 😄

OK, back on topic!

2 hours ago, Symph said:

It made me start thinking like... "well if all predictions are mere likelihoods then all predictions are really looking more into the present than looking AT the future".

Could you clarify that?
If I ask the cards about something happening next week, I'm looking at next week. 😕

January 29, 2020

4 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Yikes.
I was lucky in a way - mine didn't raise me. I was adopted and didn't find her until I was in my 40's.

Tarot-as-religion isn't my thing, either. The older decks sometimes seem to subtly poke fun at religion. But if it helps some poor sap get a deck in the penitentiary, more power to 'em.

I've seen Tarot work again and again...that's not a peer-reviewed study, obviously, but I don't think it's 100% faith, either.
I'm superstitious, though. Why walk under a ladder when you can go around it? 😄

OK, back on topic!

Could you clarify that?
If I ask the cards about something happening next week, I'm looking at next week. 😕

If I'm predicting what will happen 5 days from now, but not looking at a set in stone future that can't be changed, I'm looking at the likely future based on how things are and it CAN change if the now changes, then doesn't it mean the ummm... timelines or umm... energies that are being used to make the prediction are in the here and now? Perhaps they still cause the card reader to have a vision or a flash (I get those myself sometimes), but it would seem to me that if it is still just the likely outcome if things don't change, or wait... now I'm thinking about the possibility of just multiple timelines and maybe we're looking at the current timeline and....

Dead God... Now I've done confused myself...

Katrinka I don't think I can oblige you. This thread just broke my brain. We just have to accept that I have no idea what I'm talking about anymore... lol in a way I'm trying to be funny but in a way I'm serious, I start out thinking I know the point I'm making, then somehow the ideas run in circles, and then I don't know what I'm saying anymore LOL I'm gonna try to save face by sneaking out of here ninja style... *drops smoke bomb, coughs, falls over* Shit I forgot I'm not a ninja!!! *crawls out in disgrace*

😅

January 29, 2020

No, no...your brain broke because you're trying to fit everything into an either/or.
Stop thinking in terms of cards for a minute and think in terms of events. That's what your reading on, events. Some events are inevitable. Others can be diffused or avoided.

Imagine you're going to have family gathering. You do a reading on it and the cards say it will be a disaster because of a drunk, abusive man. You figure that's probably Uncle Fred, so you do a reading asking how the gathering will go if you don't serve alcohol.

You get the same message. Uncle Fred has been known to BYOB on the lowdown.

Now you know not to invite Uncle Fred. You dodged the bullet - unless someone else opens their mouth and he crashes the party. The cards can tell you if that will happen, too. And if so, you can make sure ahead of time that Cousin Bruno the bouncer is coming. LOL. Or just forget hosting the thing and spend the day relaxing.

Things like the above are generally avoidable.

Some things aren't. People in hospice know this. I don't know anyone who's managed to "free will" their way out of that.

We don't always know if an event is avoidable or not, but I think it's certainly worth making an effort to avert disaster if we can. 😉

Edited January 29, 2020 by katrinka

January 29, 2020

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

No, no...your brain broke because you're trying to fit everything into an either/or.
Stop thinking in terms of cards for a minute and think in terms of events. That's what your reading on, events. Some events are inevitable. Others can be diffused or avoided.

Imagine you're going to have family gathering. You do a reading on it and the cards say it will be a disaster because of a drunk, abusive man. You figure that's probably Uncle Fred, so you do a reading asking how the gathering will go if you don't serve alcohol.

You get the same message. Uncle Fred has been known to BYOB on the lowdown.

Now you know not to invite Uncle Fred. You dodged the bullet - unless someone else opens their mouth and he crashes the party. The cards can tell you if that will happen, too. And if so, you can make sure ahead of time that Cousin Bruno the bouncer is coming. LOL. Or just forget hosting the thing and spend the day relaxing.

Things like the above are generally avoidable.

Some things aren't. People in hospice know this. I don't know anyone who's managed to "free will" their way out of that.

We don't always know if an event is avoidable or not, but I think it's certainly worth making an effort to avert disaster if we can. 😉

You just really gave me a different way of looking at this. Definitely mulling this over, and ultimately I just see that like... I dunno, I'm an analyzer, I start trying to figure things out before I've even heard the full story. I don't even realize I'm doing it, and Tarot really doesn't seem to be very suited to being anaylized haha I think that's why it's so good for me, it really forces me to set aside some of that need to understand and step into the allowing myself to be shown kind of place. But yep, you're makin me think as always Katrinka, I appreciate the insight.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Symph

January 29, 2020

I actually have often used the same terminology as Symph - thinking of the "future" position as a trajectory, based just on how things are shaping up in the present and the natural result if they keep going in the same direction. Nowadays I might gravitate more towards seeing it as a probability. I think the cards can give me the most probable outcome, but I don't believe in a predetermined, inevitable future, and I can't see the specific numbers of that probability. It might be extremely likely, or it might be that "65% chance of rain" that results in not a single raindrop. That said, I do think some people have a gift of foresight and can have much better accuracy, but I'm not one of them and I tend to assume an average person trying to read a deck won't be either.

I think the growing aversion to "predicting" (in the blogging/social media sphere at least) has a lot to do with tarot becoming more mainstream, and wanting to rationalize things for the sake of an audience who may not be entirely sold on the spiritual or magical aspects of tarot. There is so much skepticism around the concept of "fortune-tellers" that it can be less daunting to explain it to people as not a fortune-telling tool, but rather a tool for exploring and understanding oneself. That's certainly the tack I've taken with less open-minded relatives, who are much happier about the whole thing as soon as I explain it in non-magical, psychological terms (my dad's first concern being "you don't actually think you can predict the future, do you?" - as if it was an indication that I was delusional 🙄). But I think that sort of rationalization is easily passed onto new readers who are getting into tarot through those mainstream-friendly sources, and gets reinforced in internet echo chambers until it becomes internalized.

And for newcomers who don't have a lot of experience with how accurate readings can be, or who are struggling to interpret cards and may make inaccurate predictions as a result, I think it's fairly natural to have some doubt or skepticism about how powerful a tool it can be. Only solution for that is more experience, and trying out predictive spreads occasionally to see how things turn out. (I need to remind myself of that sometimes as well! I really lean toward using readings to evaluate the present or explore hypotheticals, it's my comfort zone and I should step out of it more often)

January 29, 2020

this thread has made me think a lot about what the cards allow us to do. And I feel that I might be in a minority in that I don't read for others much at all...my goal with Tarot was never to do divinatory readings....it has always been to get me closer to Kether/Valhalla etc...

so I have been working with Tarot as a means of studying esoteric systems, as well as my own personal enlightenment for the past 30 years. In that time, I have never done a reading for other people for money. It has usually been either to let them in on something that i like to do (because they asked...), or (in the case of my wife) to help them understand that it is not "devil worship".

I have never liked the idea that the cards are just a "carnival-like" divinatory tool...and I think it is because I don't feel like the cards allude to an objective/concrete answer to inquiries. I try to give my answers to peoples inquiries in a way where they have to do some soul searching, and be more mentally involved in the outcome. I always preface a reading by saying "this is going to be an interpretation of possible events, that have been tempered by your past decisions, and that will require you to use the wisdom you have gained up until now, and to cause you to be wary, proactive, and open eyed as you procede". I try to get them to understand that I am not giving them answers, s much as I am trying to get them to see "in a wider path" as they progress to the future.

I think a lot of this is tempered by my Rune studies for the past 40 years, and my existence in the cosmos of Norse mythology in that same time span. I firmly believe that The Norns weave the web strings of time, and while we can't control the strings of the future, as we walk along the path, we can use wisdom, and insight to see how the strings appear out of the mist, and we can choose the ones that resonate the loudest. And that that choice is not always the best, but IS always a learning tool for the next choice.

When I do read for, or work with others . with the cards, I always, always try to remind them that if they don't have some kind of belief in powers greater than them, then this could all really just be read as "hocus pocus". That issue of faith really does come up, and - I feel - has nothing to do with religion. And I think you have to have faith in yourself in many ways to really get the cards/runes etc. I also firmly believe that the cards/runes are the direct path to finding that faith...

ok...enough babble for now

January 29, 2020

1 hour ago, jdusk said:

I actually have often used the same terminology as Symph - thinking of the "future" position as a trajectory, based just on how things are shaping up in the present and the natural result if they keep going in the same direction. Nowadays I might gravitate more towards seeing it as a probability. I think the cards can give me the most probable outcome, but I don't believe in a predetermined, inevitable future, and I can't see the specific numbers of that probability. It might be extremely likely, or it might be that "65% chance of rain" that results in not a single raindrop. That said, I do think some people have a gift of foresight and can have much better accuracy, but I'm not one of them and I tend to assume an average person trying to read a deck won't be either.

I think the growing aversion to "predicting" (in the blogging/social media sphere at least) has a lot to do with tarot becoming more mainstream, and wanting to rationalize things for the sake of an audience who may not be entirely sold on the spiritual or magical aspects of tarot. There is so much skepticism around the concept of "fortune-tellers" that it can be less daunting to explain it to people as not a fortune-telling tool, but rather a tool for exploring and understanding oneself. That's certainly the tack I've taken with less open-minded relatives, who are much happier about the whole thing as soon as I explain it in non-magical, psychological terms (my dad's first concern being "you don't actually think you can predict the future, do you?" - as if it was an indication that I was delusional 🙄). But I think that sort of rationalization is easily passed onto new readers who are getting into tarot through those mainstream-friendly sources, and gets reinforced in internet echo chambers until it becomes internalized.

And for newcomers who don't have a lot of experience with how accurate readings can be, or who are struggling to interpret cards and may make inaccurate predictions as a result, I think it's fairly natural to have some doubt or skepticism about how powerful a tool it can be. Only solution for that is more experience, and trying out predictive spreads occasionally to see how things turn out. (I need to remind myself of that sometimes as well! I really lean toward using readings to evaluate the present or explore hypotheticals, it's my comfort zone and I should step out of it more often)

Lot of good stuff in that post, one of those times I really kinda wish we just had a like button since I want you to know I appreciated your input even though I have nothing to add.

January 29, 2020

31 minutes ago, jdusk said:

I actually have often used the same terminology as Symph - thinking of the "future" position as a trajectory, based just on how things are shaping up in the present and the natural result if they keep going in the same direction. Nowadays I might gravitate more towards seeing it as a probability. I think the cards can give me the most probable outcome, but I don't believe in a predetermined, inevitable future, and I can't see the specific numbers of that probability. It might be extremely likely, or it might be that "65% chance of rain" that results in not a single raindrop. That said, I do think some people have a gift of foresight and can have much better accuracy, but I'm not one of them and I tend to assume an average person trying to read a deck won't be either.

I'm not particularly psychic. If I have a "gift", it's the curiouslty, desire, and persistence to learn to read cards.
And the cards work for me.
Have you ever done "If I do/if I don't" type readings? A reading on what will happen if you move this year, and one on what will happen if you stay? Or what will happen if you quit your job and try to start your own business, vs. if you wait?
You have a lot of possible futures, in a way. A lot of things are up to you, some aren't.
As for the "65% chance of rain", yes, if the cards are hinting at something, I suppose that's a good way of saying it. But sometimes the cards are adamant: It's going to rain. A LOT.

31 minutes ago, jdusk said:

I think the growing aversion to "predicting" (in the blogging/social media sphere at least) has a lot to do with tarot becoming more mainstream, and wanting to rationalize things for the sake of an audience who may not be entirely sold on the spiritual or magical aspects of tarot.

I agree, mostly.
Though I don't view it as spiritual or magical aspects. It's a system that you learn. And yes, there's instinct and intuition involved, but it requires no spirituality other than recognizing your sitters as beings with thoughts and feelings, and no magic other than the fact that we don't know how the cards manage to "know" what's going to happen, so for lack of a better word, we have to call it magic.

Another contributing factor is people who get a smattering of knowledge and decide they're ready to "teach". It's epidemic, we've all seen it. Newcomers who say "I read six books and I have some crystals and stuff so I'm going to do youtube tutorials!"

But the thing is, they haven't achieved any degree of accuracy. So they find ways not to be wrong. They don't predict. And if someone calls them out for a bombed reading, they say "You must have changed it with Free Will(TM)!"

Alternately, they just do cold readings: "You're not living up to your full potential," "You're sometimes misunderstood by the people around you," etc.

31 minutes ago, jdusk said:

There is so much skepticism around the concept of "fortune-tellers" that it can be less daunting to explain it to people as not a fortune-telling tool, but rather a tool for exploring and understanding oneself.

I'm a horrible, horrible skeptic. Not at the Randi levels (skepticism is a religion with people like that. He's already decided on his conclusion before he's done his research.)

And I am a fortuneteller. I'm aware that my ideas on the matter come from outside the conventional "wisdom" du jour, but I nonetheless relate more to the ladies in the sideshow tents than to the people with the therapeutic/angel/whatever websites. I'm not uber-popular, though I do have a small group of repeat clients. I'm OK with this

I was talking to a man once and told him what I did. He asked "How can you lie to people like that?" I told him that I don't lie. People ask me what the cards say, and I tell them. It's not me, what I think - it's the cards.

31 minutes ago, jdusk said:

That's certainly the tack I've taken with less open-minded relatives, who are much happier about the whole thing as soon as I explain it in non-magical, psychological terms (my dad's first concern being "you don't actually think you can predict the future, do you?" - as if it was an indication that I was delusional 🙄). But I think that sort of rationalization is easily passed onto new readers who are getting into tarot through those mainstream-friendly sources, and gets reinforced in internet echo chambers until it becomes internalized.

Internet echo chambers are a fearsome thing. Look at the last "election."
As for me, I don't talk about magic or psychology. I just pull a Lenormand mini out of my wallet and invite them to try it out.

31 minutes ago, jdusk said:

And for newcomers who don't have a lot of experience with how accurate readings can be, or who are struggling to interpret cards and may make inaccurate predictions as a result, I think it's fairly natural to have some doubt or skepticism about how powerful a tool it can be. Only solution for that is more experience, and trying out predictive spreads occasionally to see how things turn out. (I need to remind myself of that sometimes as well! I really lean toward using readings to evaluate the present or explore hypotheticals, it's my comfort zone and I should step out of it more often)

Tarot is fuzzy right now. It can work - beautifully - but there's so much bogus information making the rounds, lot of people are wandering lost.
I suggest some immersion in Lenormand, Kippers, Italian Sibilla, or just good old playing card reading. When you come back to Tarot, it will all make sense. 😉

January 29, 2020

feel like i'm probably in the minority here but the telling clients we can only deal in "probabilities" kinda seems like a cop out to me. ultimately it becomes a question of metaphysical belief, as for myself the whole - free will vs destiny - debate seems nonsensical, like even with totally free will we'll always chose according to our personalities, experiences, impressions, feelings, ect in the context of circumstances beyond our individual control, thus one can exercise genuine free will but also live in a universe where events are, in a sense, utterly predestined (like even if we rewound time and ran the scenario again and again we would still make the same choices). in that sense free will and destiny seem like two sides of the same coin to me, though of course i'm in no position to assert this belief is actually correct lol, just what makes the most sense to me. within such a view talking about the future as though it were possible for perspectives offered in a tarot reading to alter it in any way doesn't make a lot of sense. if i offer a predictive reading i can't escape risking my prediction might be wrong, not because the future changed but because my interpretation was incorrect. that's obviously a big risk and a lot of pressure, and of course many times the cards seem ambiguous enough we don't feel confident offering a concrete prediction.

if i client came back and said "your prediction was wrong" i would most likely tell them predicting the future is not an easy thing to do and that i'm sorry my interpretation didn't prove accurate to what actually happened. to tell them my prediction was indeed accurate at the time but the future changed seems unaccountable to me, though of course i completely understand why a reader would want to present things that way in terms of defending the perceived legitimacy of the service provided and their reputation for accuracy.

i don't expect anyone to necessarily agree and respect the genuine good faith of others conceiving of the future as an amorphous field of unformed potentials, since nobody can prove how timespace really works or whether free will and destiny mutually reinforce or potentially alter one another we'll just have to go our own ways : ) for me, if i give a prediction i put my reputation on the line. that's why i won't do it unless the cards speak really clearly in a way that gives me the conviction to offer a prediction with confidence, otherwise i just have to say "the cards aren't indicating a clear answer on that, apologies". even if a prediction is offered it's only in the context of "here's what the cards are and these are the reasons why this makes me believe such and such an outcome will result". even if it's wrong the querent understands how you reached that conclusion. for readers who operate mostly on intuition or clairvoyance the reputational risk seems more significant in that respect. either way i understand psychological studies have shown people generally predisposed to vividly remember predictions that turned out accurate but de-emphasize the memory of ones that didn't, so at least we've got that working for us ; )

my 2c

January 29, 2020

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

I'm not particularly psychic. If I have a "gift", it's the curiouslty, desire, and persistence to learn to read cards.
And the cards work for me.
Have you ever done "If I do/if I don't" type readings? A reading on what will happen if you move this year, and one on what will happen if you stay? Or what will happen if you quit your job and try to start your own business, vs. if you wait?

I like Ricklef's (I think it was; trying to give credit where due !) three card spread: - Yes if/No if/ Maybe If.

32 minutes ago, iofthebeholder said:

feel like i'm probably in the minority here but the telling clients we can only deal in "probabilities" kinda seems like a cop out to me.

How about that well known example I always cite from AT where a member asked if she was right in her reading showing that her daughter would fail her exams. Based on the cards we all agreed that yes, absolutely.

The reading scared the shit out of the daughter (the exams were important to her) and she suddenly knuckled down and did the work - and passed. But based on the situation when the reading was done, failure was inevitable. Things CAN change as the result of a reading. Even a predictive one that wasn't asking for advice.

January 29, 2020

14 hours ago, gregory said:

No she isn't. What she can't get is how I can believe in one unprovable thing and refuse to believe in another equally unprovable thing. She is quite certain tarot doesn't work, that it's nonsense. But if I know that it isn't nonsense I must obviously also accept that god isn't nonsense too. Her logic is deeply flawed, I do realise that. But that's how she sees it - I think the idea is that as god is much more believable (yeah RIGHT....) then as I accept something even less believable, everything more believable is OK by definition, and so clearly I believe the lot..

I reckon there is a difference between belief as received wisdom, belief as intellectual proposition, and belief derived from experience. This, I suppose, goes for both tarot and God.

January 29, 2020

14 hours ago, gregory said:

... god ... god ...

Where is your capitalisation? Think of your family, please.

January 29, 2020

For dogs sake!

I'm dyslexic btw

January 29, 2020

6 minutes ago, devin said:

Where is your capitalisation? Think of your family, please.

My family write it that way too; they won't care. I do not believe in god - one or many - so s/he needs no capital letter. For me, it isn't a proper noun. Proper nouns are what get capitalised, Devin !

January 29, 2020

38 minutes ago, gregory said:

My family write it that way too; they won't care. I do not believe in god - one or many - so s/he needs no capital letter. For me, it isn't a proper noun. Proper nouns are what get capitalised, Devin !

It's not grammar I'm worried about, it's civilisation. Repent!

January 29, 2020

11 hours ago, xTheHermitx said:

...my goal with Tarot was never to do divinatory readings...

I'm the same way. Doing predictive readings has never been a goal of mine. And tarot is also a big part of my spiritual practice.

11 hours ago, jdusk said:

I think the growing aversion to "predicting" (in the blogging/social media sphere at least) has a lot to do with tarot becoming more mainstream, and wanting to rationalize things for the sake of an audience who may not be entirely sold on the spiritual or magical aspects of tarot.

Is it needing to rationalize tarot to a wider audience, or is it the other way around? What I mean is, I agree the use of tarot has grown and become more mainstream. I think more people have realized that tarot is not ONLY for people who want to predict the future, and the people who have found the power of tarot in their own lives in different ways are sharing those experiences, and through that sharing more people with similar needs or perspectives come to tarot. Thus, the circle of people discussing tarot is an eclectic bunch, many of whom do not consider themselves fortune tellers, and of course also many who do. In other words, I'm suggesting that the group of people using and discussing tarot is just larger and more diverse than ever, and maybe it's the growth of tarot outside of fortune telling that accounts for the growth of such discussions, as opposed to one group of readers feeling a need to justify what they do to those who don't read that way.

Edited January 29, 2020 by RavenOfSummer

January 29, 2020

12 hours ago, xTheHermitx said:

this thread has made me think a lot about what the cards allow us to do. And I feel that I might be in a minority in that I don't read for others much at all...my goal with Tarot was never to do divinatory readings....it has always been to get me closer to Kether/Valhalla etc...

Using the cards for meditation and the like is legit.
But just because you choose not to, doesn't man that the cards "don't allow" us to do it.

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so I have been working with Tarot as a means of studying esoteric systems, as well as my own personal enlightenment for the past 30 years. In that time, I have never done a reading for other people for money. It has usually been either to let them in on something that i like to do (because they asked...), or (in the case of my wife) to help them understand that it is not "devil worship".

I have never liked the idea that the cards are just a "carnival-like" divinatory tool...and I think it is because I don't feel like the cards allude to an objective/concrete answer to inquiries.

OK, this is where I get off the bus, lol.
Granted, the carnival is known for being meretricious. And I certainly wouldn't feed anyone stock cold reading lines.
But, as Todd Browning knew, sometimes the people on the midway are the good people, marginalized though they may be.
It comes down to this: are you able to divine with Tarot? Or no?

I'm afraid that much of the instructional material available these days isn't helpful. And so we get this "Tarot cannot predict the future" trope - hogwash.

The fact is, a lot of people have lost sight of how to read cards because of that.
It takes a good while - you're learning a language - but it's doable.

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I try to give my answers to peoples inquiries in a way where they have to do some soul searching, and be more mentally involved in the outcome. I always preface a reading by saying "this is going to be an interpretation of possible events, that have been tempered by your past decisions, and that will require you to use the wisdom you have gained up until now, and to cause you to be wary, proactive, and open eyed as you procede". I try to get them to understand that I am not giving them answers, s much as I am trying to get them to see "in a wider path" as they progress to the future.

I think a lot of this is tempered by my Rune studies for the past 40 years, and my existence in the cosmos of Norse mythology in that same time span. I firmly believe that The Norns weave the web strings of time, and while we can't control the strings of the future, as we walk along the path, we can use wisdom, and insight to see how the strings appear out of the mist, and we can choose the ones that resonate the loudest. And that that choice is not always the best, but IS always a learning tool for the next choice.

I started reading runes in the early 90's. And I find them to be excellent for predictive reading (on the condition that one stays away from that Ralph Blum stuff.) Wealth, fertility, need, etc....these are all still relevant. And very predictive.

I love the Germanic mindset on fortunetelling. Very direct, no-nonsense. Runes, Lenormand, Kippers...all good. You do you. Just saying I'm doing me over here, and it works. 😉

Edited January 29, 2020 by katrinka

Prophetic tarot VS healing tarot. Your thoughts on this?

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