Quintessential Decks for the Well-rounded Reader

[Merrick]

37 minutes ago, Grace said:

I don't know why, I got the impression somewhere along the way that the Italian decks were based on TdM. I must have got jumbled up somewhere there. My apologies - and thanks for picking that up.

But yes, the missing cards in Visconti, and some of the other older sets, and how people work around that. It doesn't seem to be an issue if people are using them, just trying to get my head around it all. I think I'm trying to digest too much information in too short a time.
 

The TdM evolved out of tarot decks from Italy, but TdM decks were also imported into Italy and influenced later Italian decks. There’s a lot of cross-pollination between French and Italian historical tarot. 
 

I’ll echo the recommendations of RWS/Thoth/TdM, and for fun I’ll throw in the Minchiate as well. 

[Grace]

18 minutes ago, Merrick said:

I’ll echo the recommendations of RWS/Thoth/TdM, and for fun I’ll throw in the Minchiate as well. 

Yes! Bring on the suggestions, as confusing as it is it has been great fun weeding through them all.

28 minutes ago, katrinka said:

That, and you've got a whole committee feeding you information and suggestions.
There's a saying that "A giraffe is a horse put together by a committee." 😄

🤣 But the best committee ever! Poor giraffe. 

 

 

[Royalalbatross]

To the three already mentioned I think I would add the Swiss 1JJ. It has a pretty long tradition of use.

 

For a fifth I would go with a modern deck, maybe Robert Place's Alchemical Tarot? They guy has studied Tarot more than almost anybody else. 

But wait, not  single Italian one? Maybe the "Soprafino"? Or Visconti-Sforza for a real old-timer?

Edited March 31, 2020 by Royalalbatross

[katrinka]

59 minutes ago, Royalalbatross said:

But wait, not  single Italian one? Maybe the "Soprafino"? Or Visconti-Sforza for a real old-timer?

Or the Vacchetta. https://www.violetaura.com/i-naibi-di-giovanni-vacchetta-tarot-1893/

 

That deck was originally printed without any color, people colored it themselves. So there's an alternate reproduction called "Tarot of the Master". It's inexpensive, easily riffled, and I actually prefer this color scheme. Those borders have to go, but hey, a lot of us have time for projects these days. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/tarot-of-the-master/

 

[geoxena]

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

. . . there's an alternate reproduction called "Tarot of the Master". It's inexpensive, easily riffled, and I actually prefer this color scheme. Those borders have to go, but hey, a lot of us have time for projects these days. http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/tarot-of-the-master/

 

I have the Tarot of the Master deck and love reading with it.  The borders don't bother me too much - I don't mind the color of the borders, but dislike the keywords they added.  I just don't pay much attention to the borders.

 

I uploaded images of it to our deck library:

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by geoxena

[Grace]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

That deck was originally printed without any color, people colored it themselves.

That's a lovely idea. Wonder if they are still available. 

 

1 hour ago, geoxena said:

I just don't pay much attention to the borders.

It's funny how the with/without borders option became a 'thing' with some tarot decks. I wonder how this came about. Personal preference, differences in the print process between batches or producers. Little from column A...Just a passing thought. 

 

7 hours ago, Royalalbatross said:

To the three already mentioned I think I would add the Swiss 1JJ. It has a pretty long tradition of use.

 

For a fifth I would go with a modern deck, maybe Robert Place's Alchemical Tarot? They guy has studied Tarot more than almost anybody else. 

But wait, not  single Italian one? Maybe the "Soprafino"? Or Visconti-Sforza for a real old-timer?

The Swiss 1JJ has stuck in my memory as something to investigate further. Will have to look into the Alchemical and Soprafino.

[Guest]

14 hours ago, Grace said:

I am having a hard time choosing a TdM based deck - navigating the missing cards etc, still not quite sure how that works. But I'm leaning towards the Sola Busca for the moment. 
It will be a treat to myself next week.... so you never know.... I might change my mind before then. lol. 

 

Hi @Grace

 

Like @katrinka I am assuming that you are referring to the Visconti tarots rather than the TdM.  I do not want to lecture, but the Visconti is no more a TdM than the Besançon or Italian Soprafino tarots.  

 

Different definitions of what constitutes a TdM exists.  I accept the definition that defines a TdM as being of and derived from the pattern typified by the Noblet, Dodal and Conver tarots.  The surviving Noblet is missing two pip cards, but Flornoy recreated these.

 

The three editions of the Visconti-Sforza include Devil and Tower cards.  The original Lo Scarabeo edition offered a perfect "Devil" card based on contemporary Italian frescoes.  Sadly, they replaced it with a Devil based on the Noblet-Dodal-Conver patterns/French sources.  

 

If you wish to use them, you can include them.  Or you can use the 19 trumps alone.  

Edited March 31, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Grace said:

It's funny how the with/without borders option became a 'thing' with some tarot decks. I wonder how this came about. Personal preference, differences in the print process between batches or producers. Little from column A...Just a passing thought. 

 

 

 

Lo Scarabeo's old multilingual borders, as seen in these, jarred with the cards. It ruined some of their editions.

 

The Swiss 1JJ has stuck in my memory as something to investigate further. Will have to look into the Alchemical and Soprafino.

 

The different Soprafino tarts and the 1jj (Besançon) are beautiful.  My favourite Soprafino is what LS publish as the Ancient Italian. 

[geoxena]

5 hours ago, Grace said:

It's funny how the with/without borders option became a 'thing' with some tarot decks. I wonder how this came about.

Well, everything has trends, and I'm not a collector nor very knowledgeable about decks, but from my observations, especially with regard to LoScarabeo's decks, since the borders were ugly with keywords added in like four or five languages (many of which didn't jive with the meanings that readers felt should be associated with the cards, I believe), people found them distracting and started trimming the borders off.  At the old Aeclectic site, there were lots of threads with pictures shared of DIY trimmed decks.  And not just LoS decks but any deck. So, trimming borders off decks became a thing. Eventually, as more people began creating decks themselves, they made them borderless.  I think most readers want to see as much of the imagery as possible, and borderless decks seem to be considered more modern, from what I can tell in reading reviews about them.

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by geoxena

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

Lo Scarabeo's old multilingual borders, as seen in these, jarred with the cards. It ruined some of their editions.

Yes. And people were trimming and complaining, but it still took them awhile to stop doing that.
The card faces are quite beautiful without the borders. http://www.albideuter.de/html/vacchetta-meister.html
Tarot of the Master appears to be hard to get now. I'm hoping they phase out the current edition and do a nicer one.
As it stands now, the backs are just a monochrome version of the Bagat. (And if you trim, you'll have an off-center Bagat.) You can see a card back in the image Geoxena posted.
That's another issue with some LS decks. My Faustino-Solesio Sibilla reproduction has sepia-toned Fortuna backs. I'd prefer some kind of back pattern from a vintage deck.

 

As much as I like the deck, and as inexpensive as it was until recently, I've been holding off on getting it. Trimming is a lot of work, and I'd still end up with wonky backs that don't do the card faces justice.

So I make do with the Il Meneghello, which, despite all the fuchsias and the fact that it doesn't riffle well, is NOT a hardship, lol.

You have to be kind of careful with LS. (In before gregory points out that this can be the case with USG, etc., too. Yes, the others big publishers have some duds. Just not those crazy keyword borders, at least not that I know of.)

 

10 hours ago, Grace said:

That's a lovely idea. Wonder if they are still available. 

Not the ones you color yourself, that was a long time ago.
But if you just want to color a deck yourself, you can download the B.O.T.A. http://store.bota.org/tarotdecks.html
You can color it as you please, or according to Paul Foster Case's instructions. If you do it according to specs, it looks like this: http://www.esotericmeanings.com/introduction-to-the-b-o-t-a-tarot-deck/
That's the color scheme that Frankie Albano used for the RWS. A lot of people think it's just 60's psychedelic kitsch, but it isnt. It's B.O.T.A.
https://fennario.wordpress.com/2019/06/03/frankie-albano-please-call-home/#comment-2072

 

10 hours ago, Grace said:

It's funny how the with/without borders option became a 'thing' with some tarot decks. I wonder how this came about. Personal preference, differences in the print process between batches or producers. Little from column A...Just a passing thought. 

I don't think it could have happened without the internet. People started trimming everything and posting pictures, and some publishers took note.

A lot of people seem to like trimming everything, rounding square corners, and edging decks in black or various colors. I'm not one of them. Borders serve a purpose, they're a buffer zone. The one deck I trimmed is an old Kipperkarten, after years of use the borders were grubby and worn, kind of gross looking. So I chopped them.

And I would definitely trim an LS keyword deck, if I had one of those. As for sharp corners, they don't feel stabby to me due to my shuffling method, so I don't round them. And edging is something you have to do one card at a time, very carefully. I'm the kind of person who would try to hurry the process and make a mess. But some people find that kind of thing relaxing. And a properly edged deck can look very nice.

[Grace]

5 hours ago, leroidetrèfle said:

The three editions of the Visconti-Sforza include Devil and Tower cards.  The original Lo Scarabeo edition offered a perfect "Devil" card based on contemporary Italian frescoes.  Sadly, they replaced it with a Devil based on the Noblet-Dodal-Conver patterns/French sources.  

 

If you wish to use them, you can include them.  Or you can use the 19 trumps alone.  

I'm the kind of person who really likes everything in it's place, all 'i's dotted and 't's crossed. I can't shake this feeling it's like buying a stunning Monopoly set, only the find the thimble, shoe and chance cards are gone. You can replace them as best as you can, and the game will play just fine, but somehow it isn't quite the same. Because I'm picky that way. 🤣 I want it to not bother me! 

4 hours ago, geoxena said:

At the old Aeclectic site, there were lots of threads with pictures shared of DIY trimmed decks.  And not just LoS decks but any deck. So, trimming borders off decks became a thing.

They really must have found them offensive! That is so interesting, thank you very much for that. 

[Grace]

4 minutes ago, katrinka said:

A lot of people seem to like trimming everything, rounding square corners, and edging decks in black or various colors. I'm not one of them. Borders serve a purpose, they're a buffer zone. The one deck I trimmed is an old Kipperkarten, after years of use the borders were grubby and worn, kind of gross looking. So I chopped them.

And I would definitely trim an LS keyword deck, if I had one of those. As for sharp corners, they don't feel stabby to me due to my shuffling method, so I don't round them. And edging is something you have to do one card at a time, very carefully. I'm the kind of person who would try to hurry the process and make a mess. But some people find that kind of thing relaxing. And a properly edged deck can look very nice.

Yes, it does sound like an effort to do it well without ruining the cards. I would be nervous taking the scissors to them. The whole thing fascinates me all the same. 

[katrinka]

I imagine people who do a LOT of trimming invest in something like this https://www.mybinding.com/x-acto-12-x-12-heavy-duty-guillotine-cutter-26612.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw1Iv0BRDaARIsAGTWD1vXaCuPynCMbBOt-N5eseKxfSrSm-Sui73xaQMj9ASdeYKkAJa3NsYaAoTNEALw_wcB

But it's not something I would use enough to justify the cost!

 

[gregory]

The Vacchetta are still out there to colour yourself..

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20080308070951/http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa082003a.htm

 

And here, come to think:

 

http://freeware.esoterica.free.fr/html/freecards.html

Edited March 31, 2020 by gregory

[Grace]

Thanks @gregory... that's certainly an option, thank you for that!

[katrinka]

NIIIIIIICE.

[Wheel of Fantastic]

On 3/31/2020 at 2:59 AM, katrinka said:

While the Centennial is nice, it's a matter of taste. I LIKE colors - the strident turquoise of the old University books deck. and the Paul Foster Case color scheme of the Albano.
I don't like the loud yellows in the regular USG edition. It almost hurts to look at those.
The "Original" RWS has some lovely greens, I like the pallette. I just can't do the linework. (It's a Pam B, I believe? Eve on the Lovers has a Dudley Doright chin.)

Neither for me. I prefer my vintage Greenie and my gold box mini.

The CBD has softened facial expressions. I prefer my TdMs not to smile at me.
Flornoy is good, Yves - ANYTHING from Yves - is top of the line.
And the Heron is nice.

 

See how subjective this is? 😉

Very subjective!

 

I was sticking to in-print decks but if we include out of print then my RWS recommendation would be the original 1968 thru late 70s Albano Waite by Tarot Productions. This was created by Frankie Albano to be more 'accurate' in colour tone than the University Books edition. The vintage Albano has different colouration to the current edition by US Games and is my all time favourite RWS. You can't accuse the vintage Albano of having muted colours... That Knight of Pentacles...

 

I own a greenie Thoth - 4 language version - and the gold box mini. I still prefer the current editions of the Thoth. The Greenie Thoth is washed out to some extent, though not as bad as other greenies I've seen, and the gold box edition is too small. And out of print.

 

If I had to choose one - and only one - TdM then I would go with Yves Reynaud's historical reproduction of the Pierre Madenie 1709. I own other TdM decks by Yves but the Pierre Madenie is the most readable. And still in print.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Wheel of Fantastic

[katrinka]

On 4/7/2020 at 7:18 AM, Wheel of Fantastic said:

I was sticking to in-print decks but if we include out of print then my RWS recommendation would be the original 1968 thru late 70s Albano Waite by Tarot Productions. This was created by Frankie Albano to be more 'accurate' in colour tone than the University Books edition. The vintage Albano has different colouration to the current edition by US Games and is my all time favourite RWS. You can't accuse the vintage Albano of having muted colours... That Knight of Pentacles...

It's certainly not muted!
The current edition is even more saturated, though. It's actually a little more than the camera can adjust to in this video, so you can see those shimmying lines on some of the card backgrounds. (Not sure what that malfunction/phenomenon is called?)
 

 

The old editions are the better print of the two, though, and you can make out the delicate lavender shades on the Page of Pentacles. And I sure wouldn't mind having one of those minis!

On 4/7/2020 at 7:18 AM, Wheel of Fantastic said:

I own a greenie Thoth - 4 language version - and the gold box mini. I still prefer the current editions of the Thoth. The Greenie Thoth is washed out to some extent, though not as bad as other greenies I've seen, and the gold box edition is too small. And out of print.

There's a lot of variation in Greenies. Mine isn't washed out - if anything, a few of the darker, more somber cards like the 7 of Disks are just a bit too murky. But I can really see the all colors used in those in the gold box deck. It's the only one I've seen that captures all that. They did well to rephotograph the paintings.

That Greenie stock feels awesome in hand, though!

On 4/7/2020 at 7:18 AM, Wheel of Fantastic said:

If I had to choose one - and only one - TdM then I would go with Yves Reynaud's historical reproduction of the Pierre Madenie 1709. I own other TdM decks by Yves but the Pierre Madenie is the most readable. And still in print.

I love the Madenie. Mine has the shadow images. <3

 

[Wheel of Fantastic]

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

It's certainly not muted!
The current edition is even more saturated, though. It's actually a little more than the camera can adjust to in this video, so you can see those shimmying lines on some of the card backgrounds. (Not sure what that malfunction/phenomenon is called?)
 

 

The old editions are the better print of the two, though, and you can make out the delicate lavender shades on the Page of Pentacles. And I sure wouldn't mind having one of those minis!

There's a lot of variation in Greenies. Mine isn't washed out - if anything, a few of the darker, more somber cards like the 7 of Disks are just a bit too murky. But I can really see the all colors used in those in the gold box deck. It's the only one I've seen that captures all that. They did well to rephotograph the paintings.

That Greenie stock feels awesome in hand, though!

I love the Madenie. Mine has the shadow images. ❤️

 

I own an Albano Waite mini - as well as the vintage regular size deck. The mini is a 1987 edition with copyright attributed to both Tarot Productions and US Games - an odd thing. The colours are identical to the vintage 60s deck. Definitely my favourite mini/pocket deck of all time.

 

The copy of the mini I own is the only copy I've ever seen - they do seem pretty rare these days.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Wheel of Fantastic

[katrinka]

9 minutes ago, Wheel of Fantastic said:

I own an Albano Waite mini - as well as the vintage regular size deck. The mini is a 1987 edition with copyright attributed to both Tarot Productions and US Games - an odd thing. The colours are identical to the vintage 60s deck. Definitely my favourite mini/pocket deck of all time.

 

The copy of the mini I own is the only copy I've ever seen - they do seem pretty rare these days.

 

That IS odd, especially about the colors. Very cool!

[AeonHorus]

On 3/12/2020 at 4:44 AM, katrinka said:

Thoth, RWS and TdM, of course!

Agreed! Maybe chuck in a deck of playing cards in for good measure and learn a bit of numerology to go with the Playing Cards and TdM and there you have it!

[AeonHorus]

Just to add to the above ...

 

Thoth - There is only one !!!

 

Rider Waite - Classic Yellow Box Version

 

TdM - Go for Ben Dov CBD version as that is as close to a classroom clean deck as you can get!

 

As for playing cards and Numerology, there are so many systems out there it can make ones nose bleed much in the same way as a newbie photog has trouble finding that perfect camera lol. 

The advice I was given was to do some research until you find a system that you find yourself comfortable with, then stick with that one and forget all the rest!

 

Just my tuppenny ha'penny's worth, if it's worth anything at all 😉 

[Grace]

Thanks @AeonHorus! The playing cards are an interesting suggestion, I will definitely consider that. I like to dabble in numerology, so it would open that avenue up for me to study a little more. Funny I was watching a YouTube review comparing the Ben Dov with another version just recently, and was leaning towards it. My order of the Hermetic deck is on it's way finally (after Covid-19 related delays), can't wait to receive it! 

[AeonHorus]

18 minutes ago, Grace said:

My order of the Hermetic deck is on it's way finally

Isn't that one the Black & White one?

[gregory]

It is black and white, yes.