What's your take on The Empress?

[AlbaTross]

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

Hello @AlbaTross

 

You are more than correct that there was both geographical and cultural difference between the monarchies throughout both Continental and Eastern Europe in the period under consideration. I did not form an opinion from an Eastern European or British perspective.

 

As far as I am aware, no universal consensus has yet has been reached on the trumps' titles.  If the card does indeed show an empress, then the likeliest model would be the consort to the Holy Roman Emperor which does include a Sforza.  That said, there is also the Byzantine emperors. 

 

Numerical associations or partner cards are not something I use.  I am not big on binaries:  that is why I did not like Jodorowsky, &c as you end up with Sun/Moon/Male/Female.  The only time I pay attention to numbers is to note advancement , e.g. 2 , 9 , 10 is a sharp ascent which can indicate time, force, &c.  But that is with pips.  
 
For reading, I focus on the essence of the eikōn and then its function.  I note that she has her arms full (busy), looks directly at us (communication), fills the card (centre), and so on. 

Well, I am a fan of Caterina Sforza, but I don't think that's what you're referring to.  In any case, it is true that I can't think of any ruling empresses of Rome...but I'm also not well-versed in Roman emperors, so that's a part of history that somewhat eludes me...aside from notable ones such as Caesar and Nero, of course.  But yeah, it seems likely The Emperor and Empress were at least inspired by the rulers of Rome, so you're probably right about The Empress being a consort to The Emperor.  

 

I clearly need to read more books as I'm not sure what an eikon is, but that sounds interesting.  I've been meaning to get more Tarot books, but haven't yet for whatever reason.  

[katrinka]

35 minutes ago, AlbaTross said:

I clearly need to read more books as I'm not sure what an eikon is, but that sounds interesting.  I've been meaning to get more Tarot books, but haven't yet for whatever reason.  

I don't think I've seen anyone else use it in reference to card images, so you might find google not only fast and inexpensive, but more effective. 😉
Tarot books are subject to Sturgeon's Law, anyway. It's a little tough to sift out the ones worth reading, and a good many of those are not in english.

Edited October 20, 2020 by katrinka

[Guest]

23 hours ago, AlbaTross said:

Well, I am a fan of Caterina Sforza, but I don't think that's what you're referring to.  In any case, it is true that I can't think of any ruling empresses of Rome...but I'm also not well-versed in Roman emperors, so that's a part of history that somewhat eludes me...aside from notable ones such as Caesar and Nero, of course.  But yeah, it seems likely The Emperor and Empress were at least inspired by the rulers of Rome, so you're probably right about The Empress being a consort to The Emperor.  

 

I clearly need to read more books as I'm not sure what an eikon is, but that sounds interesting.  I've been meaning to get more Tarot books, but haven't yet for whatever reason.  

Hi @AlbaTross

Eikon is the Greek for for icon as in religious icon. Traditionally, these were said to be written rather than painted. Each look, gesture, garment, colour has a significance which combines to tell a story.  Icons are narratives; the cards are the same. However, we often lose the narrative (essence) as we become lost in the symbols.

 

The Holy Roman Empire was formed in the 10th century, and comprised a group of territories in Italy, Germany, Burgundy and Bohemia. Caterina Sforza was the illegitimate sister of Bianca Maria Sforza who was Empress Consort. 

[AlbaTross]

8 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Hi @AlbaTross

Eikon is the Greek for for icon as in religious icon. Traditionally, these were said to be written rather than painted. Each look, gesture, garment, colour has a significance which combines to tell a story.  Icons are narratives; the cards are the same. However, we often lose the narrative (essence) as we become lost in the symbols.

 

The Holy Roman Empire was formed in the 10th century, and comprised a group of territories in Italy, Germany, Burgundy and Bohemia. Caterina Sforza was the illegitimate sister of Bianca Maria Sforza who was Empress Consort. 

I see.  Thanks for informing me.

 

Ah, so Caterina was just one member of what sounds like a pretty interesting family. 🙂 

[MisterTarot]

I'm usually pleased to see The Empress appearing in a reading. She is often described as a motherly type, but she's more than that to me. I see her as a Mother Goddess, and more specifically as the Earth Mother. It's always nice to have a goddess make an appearance in a reading 🙂 

 

mistertarot.com

[TheLoracular]

On 10/19/2020 at 9:52 PM, AlbaTross said:

True, those two cards in particular have a special connection.  A numerical connection is something more prominent in the Minor Arcana, and even then it depends.  I do tend to connect cards such as The Sun and The Moon though, and The Emperor and Empress certainly have that kind of connection.  

 Agreed.  In the Major Arcana,  the Sun-Moon, Magician-Priestess, Emperor-Empress all express the archetypal Yang-Yin polarity in different ways.  Looking at it all as Yang-Yin helps me personally.  And since these duos do come in numerical pairs  it does reinforce that connection to me which @AlbaTross  mentioned.

[MisterTarot]

8 hours ago, TheLoracular said:

 Agreed.  In the Major Arcana,  the Sun-Moon, Magician-Priestess, Emperor-Empress all express the archetypal Yang-Yin polarity in different ways.  Looking at it all as Yang-Yin helps me personally.  And since these duos do come in numerical pairs  it does reinforce that connection to me which @AlbaTross  mentioned.

Hi TheLoracular. I've often wondered if The Magician is truly the consort of the High Priestess. Perhaps the Hierophant is really her partner, because in the historical tarot The High Priestess was The Popess and the Hierophant was The Pope!

 

www.MisterTarot.com

[TheLoracular]

15 hours ago, MisterTarot said:

Hi TheLoracular. I've often wondered if The Magician is truly the consort of the High Priestess. Perhaps the Hierophant is really her partner, because in the historical tarot The High Priestess was The Popess and the Hierophant was The Pope!

 

www.MisterTarot.com

@MisterTarot
This is what I love most about the most about the archetypal expressions of Yang-Yin and looking at partnerships especially in the Major Arcana.  Yes, it is there between the High Priestess-Hierophant as well to for sure.  For that matter, if you look beyond the biological sex of the figures, you can see the power of an alchemical marriages of  the High Priestess-Empress, and  Magician-Hierophant too as other examples.  In fact, tempering my personal High Priestess-Empress energies with one another often needs to happen; same with Magician-Hierophant or Magician-Hermit, so on and so forth.    Usually the right pair for tempering comes in context of a reading or simply life circumstances for me.  Its one of those "I know it when I feel it" kinds of things.  
 

[MisterTarot]

6 hours ago, TheLoracular said:

@MisterTarot
This is what I love most about the most about the archetypal expressions of Yang-Yin and looking at partnerships especially in the Major Arcana.  Yes, it is there between the High Priestess-Hierophant as well to for sure.  For that matter, if you look beyond the biological sex of the figures, you can see the power of an alchemical marriages of  the High Priestess-Empress, and  Magician-Hierophant too as other examples.  In fact, tempering my personal High Priestess-Empress energies with one another often needs to happen; same with Magician-Hierophant or Magician-Hermit, so on and so forth.    Usually the right pair for tempering comes in context of a reading or simply life circumstances for me.  Its one of those "I know it when I feel it" kinds of things.  
 

TheLoracular: I like that explanation!

 

[dalsegno_]

Wow, haven't been on the forum for a while as life is busy but all of these insights are absolutely fantastic! Definitely putting a lot of these in my notes, thanks guys. 😁

I suppose seeing the Empress as a maternal figure linked with fertility and all those relevant things is a common interpretation. Strangely, haven't seen much of this myself; when upright I mostly see her as a green light for any creative ideas I want to pursue (which I have many).

And how about the reversal for you all? What sort of meanings have you found in a reverse Empress (in any situations)? Personally I really dread this; whether it's a daily draw or proper reading, an Empress in reverse always manifests as a hot mess full of troubles yet to be resolved. Never really knew why though, still yet to figure out that connection. 😓

DS

[Annaporia]

On 10/16/2020 at 7:27 AM, TheLoracular said:

I view all the Major Arcana as forces of energy/aspects of character or personality every human being has inside themselves.   What each of us says and does based on our feelings, thoughts and beliefs is how we present these 22 archetypes to the people around us.  Both very masculine or feminine archetypes exist in us and can serve as metaphors for how we behave, regardless of our biological sex.

So the Empress as an archetype:

She is the nurturing, fertile, creative mother or queen.  She is there whenever we are gardening, cooking, teaching kids/younger students, feeling at one with nature.  In her darker (reversed) aspects, she is the part of us that can be ruthlessly dominating and emotionally cruel or demanding.  

In my personal experience (and it is only that), people who have the hardest time feeling a connection to the Empress have bad personal experiences with mother figures and don't necessarily like or trust them very much.  The idea of being a mother figure themselves in terms of being nurturing, affectionate to children, tied deeply to gardening or nature, etc., is really hard because there's a lack of trust in what "motherhood" or "nurturing" means to them.  

This. For me she brings to mind D. W. Winnicott’s notion of the “good enough mother,” which implies that she is also a “bad enough mother.” She must be both in order for her children to grow properly into well adjusted adults. Reversed, I see her as going too far in one or the other of these two directions.

Edit: I forgot to add that for me, The Empress as a creative force is about the process of creating and nurturing a project, not the finished product. Reversed, she can represent the relentless pursuit of perfection and the harsh inner critic where nothing is ever good enough.

Edited June 7, 2021 by Annaporia

[Guest]

On 6/6/2021 at 8:43 PM, Annaporia said:

This. For me she brings to mind D. W. Winnicott’s notion of the “good enough mother,” which implies that she is also a “bad enough mother.” She must be both in order for her children to grow properly into well adjusted adults. Reversed, I see her as going too far in one or the other of these two directions.

 

I like this explanation so much better than what a lot of tarot books and LWBs say The Empress reversed is supposed to mean, so this is really helpful.  When someone says that the Empress reversed is cruel, smothering, irrational, and possibly jealous, it just seems a bit much, and I don't really see it.

 

On 6/6/2021 at 8:43 PM, Annaporia said:

Edit: I forgot to add that for me, The Empress as a creative force is about the process of creating and nurturing a project, not the finished product. Reversed, she can represent the relentless pursuit of perfection and the harsh inner critic where nothing is ever good enough.

 

For me, the Empress as a creative force is all about joy and spontaneity, when you have so many ideas and you're just running with them to see where they take you, and The Emperor is when you're trying to edit a rough draft into something readable, or feeling sort of uninspired but trying anyway (rules, rigidity, structure, good for editing but can sort of slow you down at the beginning of a project when you really just need to jump into things.)  The Emperor reversed is the sort of nitpicking perfectionism that kills spontaneity and makes you doubt yourself.  When it comes to creativity, The Empress reversed feels like too many ideas and no direction, chaos and a sprawling lack of structure.

[Annaporia]

3 hours ago, jadegreen said:

 

I like this explanation so much better than what a lot of tarot books and LWBs say The Empress reversed is supposed to mean, so this is really helpful.  When someone says that the Empress reversed is cruel, smothering, irrational, and possibly jealous, it just seems a bit much, and I don't really see it.

 

 

For me, the Empress as a creative force is all about joy and spontaneity, when you have so many ideas and you're just running with them to see where they take you, and The Emperor is when you're trying to edit a rough draft into something readable, or feeling sort of uninspired but trying anyway (rules, rigidity, structure, good for editing but can sort of slow you down at the beginning of a project when you really just need to jump into things.)  The Emperor reversed is the sort of nitpicking perfectionism that kills spontaneity and makes you doubt yourself.  When it comes to creativity, The Empress reversed feels like too many ideas and no direction, chaos and a sprawling lack of structure.

This makes a lot of sense. I’m taking notes.

[Card_Flipper]

I am not a woman and have not walked a woman’s shoes.  I also am aware that collectively woman have been oppressed and harmed.  Women are recreating themselves and I am not clear where are heading but they can be whatever they want and I am not against them.  That said the aspect of womanhood that I see as the Empress the softer sweeter side of women I like best.  That’s just me.  I’d rather have a beer with the Empress than a protester chick anyday.

[gregory]

As a protester chick empress, I am offended.

 

And leaving aside the giggle, I AM offended by that attitude. But that's OK - I wouldn't choose to have a beer with you anyway.

 

Empress is a strong woman. She doesn't have to exploit her femininity to achieve. She can grow without the help of others, and she can create, She knows who she is and is secure in herself. She can approach anyone as an equal.

Edited July 8, 2021 by gregory

[katrinka]

Nor would I. Flipper may find himself drinking alone.

Nothing about her says she's submissive or a doormat. No downcast eyes, she meets your gaze directly. The Emperor may hold the higher rank, but often she's the de facto ruler.

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by katrinka

[euripides]

I definitely have a relationship with cards. Perhaps they are like photographs of friends taken in the moment of giving advice. The 'bad experience of motherhood '  definitely colors my view of Empress, particularly the heavily pregnant ones as I did not enjoy anything about that experience  - the Druidcraft looks as if she's overdue and most uncomfortable. I'm glad you raised this question - I could spend some time reconsidering my understanding of this card.

Edited July 8, 2021 by euripides

[katrinka]

It may help to consider that in a reading, she isn't a pregnancy card, per se:
 

On 10/18/2020 at 8:33 AM, Guest said:

Outside of cuts, I rarely one card; two or three is my minimum.  I do often use the astrological wheel for opening readings, but as you know, I do not read it card-by-card.  In that spread, the Ace of Cups or Sun in the fifth house would indicate children.  The Empress in the fifth house, never. 

 

The Sun and the Ace of Cups is the big pregnancy combination.  The Smith-Waite Ace of Cups is a baptismal font.  The Two of Cups or Ten of Cups with the Ace can also predict a pregnancy.  The Three of Cups and the Ten of Pentacles with either the Sun or Ace of Cups can indicate pregnancy for a family member.

 

Some of the modern decks portray her as heavily pregnant, as you mentioned, but I think this is a mistake. The older decks may hint at a bump, but it could just as easily be the gathers of her gown.

[euripides]

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Some of the modern decks portray her as heavily pregnant, as you mentioned, but I think this is a mistake. The older decks may hint at a bump, but it could just as easily be the gathers of her gown.

 

Very good point. I guess one may largely be guided by the specific deck, depending on how you approach deck variants?  So I might think about the the power invested in an empress - as a partnership or in her own right, mother of the nations. Interesting that she's holding a shield, rather than orb, and sceptre. The rod or sceptre is a symbol of temporal authority, and a source I read suggests that it's derived from the military commander's rod; the shield also speaks of military protection - rather than the expected orb of divine right "reminding the regent of Christ's dominion".  When the British monarch is handed the rod, the priest says "“Receive the rod of Equity and Mercy. Be so merciful that you be not too remiss; so execute justice that you forget not mercy. Punish the wicked, protect and cherish the just, and lead your people in the way wherein they should go.”

 

The notion of Empire is a fraught one given the painful history of so many empires.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2021 by euripides

[gregory]

Yes yes yes yes. I am CONSTANTLY saying to people that this is NOT a pregnancy card, nor is it even about motherhood as such. Heck -  Elizabeth of Russia was an empress for real, and had no children - and MY was she powerful. And actually in many ways rather nasty.

 

Empress is a card of many facets. Pregnancy is not really an important one of them - except where an artist has given her a telling bump. And I think those artists are wrong. (No apologies to any of them...  )

[Nisaba]

I get different Empress-energy in different decks. For instance, in the Lebanese Tarot she is an entitled Rich-Bitch who is used to command and not used to people saying no to her. You could imagine her saying "Off with his head!" on a regular basis. The Granny Jones Tarot, showing her as a post-menopausal woman, has a grandmotherly energy, the mother-and-grandmother of all fertility. 

 

I struggle with Empresses (and High Priestesses) who are pretty, young know-nothings: I expect them to have a bit more experience than that. Of the Empresses who are visibly pregnant, there are the ones who obviously have some control over their fertility ... and the ones who probably got pregnant by accident - guess which I respect more. 

 

But in general, the Empresses I like the best are those who are nature-goddesses, who have grain and flowers and  animals around them. Fertility is not just about pregnant women!

 

As to reading them, my take on the actual nature of the image in the deck I'm currently using will have quite a lot of bearing on it. An Empress with plenty of fertile nature around her of different kinds, will remind me that fertility can be of the mind, too, and may indicate a stage where the client needs to work on their art, or music, or writing, because their creative mind will be unusually fertile. Or perhaps they just need to get out into the garden and pull up weeds and plant cuttings, because growing new life from the soil with nothing much else, will help heal them.

[ChaosandtheCrow]

I have always hated the card personally, but I have also always hated the idea of becoming a mother, and for me, I think that because its widely associated with motherhood I just never jived with it. Funny thing is...in ANY reading I have ever had...whether for myself or from others not once has this card ever shown up in a reading for me...so I think she's not fond of me either LOL 

[Wyrdkiss]

13 hours ago, ChaosandtheCrow said:

I have always hated the card personally, but I have also always hated the idea of becoming a mother, and for me, I think that because its widely associated with motherhood I just never jived with it. Funny thing is...in ANY reading I have ever had...whether for myself or from others not once has this card ever shown up in a reading for me...so I think she's not fond of me either LOL 

That's fascinating the Empress has not dropped in. I struggle with the Judgement card, which is why I appreciate the Thoth and others that offer a fresh perspective.

[ChaosandtheCrow]

On 3/1/2022 at 11:21 PM, Wyrdkiss said:

That's fascinating the Empress has not dropped in. I struggle with the Judgement card, which is why I appreciate the Thoth and others that offer a fresh perspective.

I've only ever used rider Waite based decks, but I've always been interested in Thoth...I keep meaning to get a deck, maybe I will give it a go