Article: How to spot a fake deck and why it matters

[sixdegrees]

Everyone here has made some very insightful points, many of which I agree with. However, I had a thought recently that I haven't seen well-represented thus far: How do you feel about counterfeit copies of decks long out of print, those with no sign of ever coming back into print?

 

For example, last week I found a Ukrainian seller on eBay offering an obviously pirated copy of the Victoria Regina (it has since disappeared from the Search). The cards themselves were borderless images with the title bar down below, and though I imagine that the card stock is inferior to the original, I can see some people actually preferring a borderless version of the deck. In any case, if I remember correctly, Sarah Overall (the creator of the Victoria Regina) has said that the deck is unlikely to ever by reprinted (though I can't remember why). Similarly, given its oddly round shape, I can't see U.S. Games reprinting the Tarot of the Cloisters any time soon, and that's a deck I see all the time in counterfeit form on eBay. I'm sure that members of our community would greatly appreciate a sanctioned reprint of decks like these and would jump at the chance to buy them if they came back into print, but since that seems unlikely...are counterfeits good substitutes? Or, if this is still not a good practice to you, do you at least feel that counterfeits are "less bad" in this instance than in others identified in this thread? Why or why not? I admit that I am of mixed mind myself here...

[Rupicapra]

IMO counterfeit is still counterfeit. Somebody is making profit from somebody else’s intellectual property without permission.

[Raggydoll]

35 minutes ago, sixdegrees said:

Everyone here has made some very insightful points, many of which I agree with. However, I had a thought recently that I haven't seen well-represented thus far: How do you feel about counterfeit copies of decks long out of print, those with no sign of ever coming back into print?

 

For example, last week I found a Ukrainian seller on eBay offering an obviously pirated copy of the Victoria Regina (it has since disappeared from the Search). The cards themselves were borderless images with the title bar down below, and though I imagine that the card stock is inferior to the original, I can see some people actually preferring a borderless version of the deck. In any case, if I remember correctly, Sarah Overall (the creator of the Victoria Regina) has said that the deck is unlikely to ever by reprinted (though I can't remember why). Similarly, given its oddly round shape, I can't see U.S. Games reprinting the Tarot of the Cloisters any time soon, and that's a deck I see all the time in counterfeit form on eBay. I'm sure that members of our community would greatly appreciate a sanctioned reprint of decks like these and would jump at the chance to buy them if they came back into print, but since that seems unlikely...are counterfeits good substitutes? Or, if this is still not a good practice to you, do you at least feel that counterfeits are "less bad" in this instance than in others identified in this thread? Why or why not? I admit that I am of mixed mind myself here...

That is why we have a second hand market. Trade or buy used. I don't really understand the logic here. You do realize that its the same kind of people that makes all these counterfeit decks? And by paying them, you are supporting criminals? Like I said, try to get one through trade or save up to buy a genuine vintage copy. US games is also regularly asking people over on their instagram about what decks they would like to see returning. You could post that you would like that deck to come back. 

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CH7t7X5HeB-/

 

[cirom]

I vehemently disagree with any suggestion that because a legitimate deck is out of print, and for whatever reason is unlikely to be legally printed again, that tat somehow makes it less wrong to produce or buy an illegally reproduced version of it. I repeat WRONG both legally and morally. Its a ridiculous consideration and should not be a cause of confusion... If I or any artist or publisher chooses not to print more of their work, please respect that right.

 

Edited January 9, 2021 by cirom
spelling

[ilweran]

Agree it's still wrong, even if the deck is OOP and never going to be printed again. The artist gets no money from fake decks and you have no idea where the money is going.

[gregory]

Absolutely agree. However - one thing I have done for two long OOP decks I desperately wanted was to contact the artists (both were indie decks)  and ask permission to print my own. One of those artists actually SENT me a good file of them ! You could try contacting Sarah Ovenall if you are that desperate - but there is actually a legit Chinese printed Victoria Regina out there, as a matter of record. Other than that - haunt ebay for the REAL ones.

 

Counterfeiters should never be allowed to profit from their crimes - they ARE crimes.

[Raggydoll]

And to speak in clear terms of what we mean by 'criminals':

 

https://library.ndsu.edu/ir/bitstream/handle/10365/25786/Counterfeit Industry and the Link to Terrorism.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

Then watch this:

 

 

 

Please know that part of the 9/11 attack, and many other horrible attacks, was funded by the counterfeit industry. Also know that they have found child workers that were kept hostage in factories. Drug trade and human trafficking is also connected to the counterfeit industry. Never buy fakes. 

 

"I remember walking into an assembly plant in Thailand a couple of years ago and seeing six or seven little children, all under 10 years old, sitting on the floor assembling counterfeit leather handbags. The owners had broken the children's legs and tied the lower leg to the thigh so the bones wouldn't mend. [They] did it because the children said they wanted to go outside and play. "

 

https://www.cnbc.com/id/38229835

[katrinka]

9 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

"I remember walking into an assembly plant in Thailand a couple of years ago and seeing six or seven little children, all under 10 years old, sitting on the floor assembling counterfeit leather handbags. The owners had broken the children's legs and tied the lower leg to the thigh so the bones wouldn't mend. [They] did it because the children said they wanted to go outside and play. "

 

This is the mindset behind counterfeit goods: whatever it takes to make a quick buck.

Organized crime is behind a lot of it - if you operate from a country that's lax about enforcing copyright laws, it's very easy to get away with. It helps fund the nastier activities, like human trafficking.

And we're losing artists - they're fed up with seeing pirate copies of their work for sale.

Don't support piracy. We need to fight it at every turn.



 

[sixdegrees]

Thanks for the passionate replies. Just to be clear: I have never purchased a counterfeit deck and have no intention of doing so. I already have two copies of the authentic Victoria Regina and have no interest in the Tarot of the Cloisters; I just brought them up as examples. So no need to convince me! It was a topic that I had been thinking about recently and wanted to pose to the forum for input.

 

I think that the strongest argument against purchasing OOP counterfeit decks is the one about funding organizations that participate in more nefarious activities. I hadn't thought about that angle, and it is convincing.

 

At the same time, if the big tarot companies want to combat the rise of counterfeiting, one strategy that they could pursue is a more judicious focus on bringing back high demand OOP decks when possible (though I realize it's not always possible). I checked again today, and that counterfeit Victoria Regina is back on eBay...for $40! That's about 400% more expensive than many other counterfeits I see on eBay (and if I remember correctly, the original listing was for $20). This means that illicit organizations can make much more money off of OOP decks than they can by undercutting in-print decks. I hope that this is not the beginning of these organizations realizing this possibility...

[cirom]

Illicit organizations make money by undercutting legitimate items from Rolex watches to Tarot goes without saying. As for the percentage of difference between legitimate and pirated items, that also goes without saying and the reason for that should be obvious as well. They don't have to pay any rights, the production process is cheaper the quality is inferior and they feed like parasites from the work of others. I also suspect that the print shops that produce such decks probably do have very questionable working conditions and pay scales for their workforces. The reason I say that is that the printers I use (which are based in the same country that the majority of pirated decks come from), have certification stating that they meet certain International standards for working conditions, which are accepted by the likes of  Disney. I can't personally verify that, but I hope it's true. But the very need of such certification speaks for itself. 

Furthermore I would add that the whatever price an item is being offered for on e-bay shouldn't to be held as a reference of comparison to either the artists of independent decks or publishers. E-bay transactions and asking prices are independent, third party resellers. Over the years I have been notified of some of my decks which were out of print at the time going for several hundred dollars, in one case over a thousand. I have no control, gain or involvement from that. It may however cause even more of a temptation when such figures are compared to the prices quoted for the illegal copies... a lose lose situation all round to all concerned..... except to the pirates of course and anyone who has no qualms regarding the savings that purchasing such decks represents. None of this is new or a surprise of course, but for some reason more a disappointment when one considers the supposed spiritual nature that one associates with Tarot, or was that just naiveté on my part?

 

[Lillymae]

I’ve got to admit I’m shocked at how many fake tarot/Oracle sets there are around! 
Ive recently purchased The Wild Unknown from Amazon and there was several sellers that had obviously fake ones, the price for a start gives them away! 
 

I would never purchased counterfeit ones and I think sites that sell them should be held  accountable! 

[Raggydoll]

7 hours ago, Lillymae said:

I’ve got to admit I’m shocked at how many fake tarot/Oracle sets there are around! 
Ive recently purchased The Wild Unknown from Amazon and there was several sellers that had obviously fake ones, the price for a start gives them away! 
 

I would never purchased counterfeit ones and I think sites that sell them should be held  accountable! 

I agree. I don't like the way amazon has evolved, it is basically becoming like Wish or Alibaba. 

[katrinka]

This is an interesting article from almost five years ago. It's about shoes, but it's relevant here:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/20/birkenstock-quits-amazon-in-us-after-counterfeit-surge.html

 

Basically, Birkenstock no longer sells on amazon, nor do they authorize sales. You can still find Birkenstock shoes on amazon, but they might be poor quality fakes, there is no Birkenstock store on amazon, and no sales there are authorized by Birkenstock. 

The reason for this is piracy:

"Earlier this month, CNBC.com reported on the scores of legitimate sellers that are hurting because fraudsters are knocking off their products and utilizing tactics such as paying for reviews, jumping into their listings and taking advantage of loopholes in Amazon’s logistics system. For example, Amazon commingles inventory from distributors at its fulfillment centers, so authentic products and fakes can get mixed together.

The story included reference to Birkenstock, which has seen legions of Chinese sellers promoting its flagship Arizona sandal for $79.99, or $20 below the (2016) retail price."

 

The interesting thing in all of this is that pulling out of amazon actually increased consumer confidence and sales. People became MORE likely to just go straight to the Birkenstock website or an authorized dealer, because they knew the company was ethical. On the rare occasions that I need a new pair of Birks (they wear like iron) I do this. I used to look around for other sellers with old stock, hoping for a lower price. But the possibility of getting stuck with shoddy pirated shoes is a risk I'm not willing to take. And I like integrity, I want to support that.

So - what if Llewellyn closed their amazon store? What if Lo Scarabeo and US Games stopped authorizing sales there? It wouldn't hurt them! 

 

We can only do so much as consumers: not buy pirated decks, and try to educate people. So far, this has not put a dent in the problem. But if we could get the big publishers on board, it might actually help. 

 

 

[gregory]

I am cheekily copying that to two other forums....

[katrinka]

36 minutes ago, gregory said:

I am cheekily copying that to two other forums....

 

Be my guest! It might even help. 🙂

[cirom]

I appreciate any suggestions that might put a dent into this phenomena of piracy. I was far more vocal about it in the past, now I give up. I truly don't think it can be prevented. There are two dynamics, the criminals who are behind the production of pirated material, be it watches, wine, fashion brands or tarot decks, and those who are willing to buy such items even if the quality is less because surprise surprise its cheaper. The fact that there are sufficient enough people even in the tarot community who are willing to abandon any moral considerations and  buy such decks is the most disappointing aspect of all. (I wonder if such readers offer a discount to their querants when reading with such a deck...hmmmmmm?????

Anyway that is why I don't think  this suggestion of the major publishers withdrawing from sales platforms such as Amazon is going to work. They will lose whatever sales their presence on such platforms would have generated and the pirates will still be selling on there, and doing so at a cheaper price, which will continue to appeal to that customers base. So I don't think the publishers will give this idea any serious consideration.

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, cirom said:

I appreciate any suggestions that might put a dent into this phenomena of piracy. I was far more vocal about it in the past, now I give up. I truly don't think it can be prevented. There are two dynamics, the criminals who are behind the production of pirated material, be it watches, wine, fashion brands or tarot decks, and those who are willing to buy such items even if the quality is less because surprise surprise its cheaper. The fact that there are sufficient enough people even in the tarot community who are willing to abandon any moral considerations and  buy such decks is the most disappointing aspect of all. (I wonder if such readers offer a discount to their querants when reading with such a deck...hmmmmmm?????

Anyway that is why I don't think  this suggestion of the major publishers withdrawing from sales platforms such as Amazon is going to work. They will lose whatever sales their presence on such platforms would have generated and the pirates will still be selling on there, and doing so at a cheaper price, which will continue to appeal to that customers base. So I don't think the publishers will give this idea any serious consideration.

 

It would take a big push from multiple publishers, I think. If amazon lost several of the big ones, they might pay attention. The pirates would still be selling there, but if most of what amazon has to offer is pirate decks, it hurts their branding. Everyone will be warning everyone else not to purchase decks there. So amazon might do something if it's hurting their bottom line.

 

And the sales the publishers lose would most likely be made up for by people going directly to their site. They wouldn't even have to give amazon a cut. It worked for Birkenstock. 

And why shouldn't the publishers play that angle up? "Come to us for authentic decks and decent quality" etc. Not luxury, but good, utilitarian decks that can take a lot of use. Kind of like Lodge pans. Lodge isn't a status brand, but their stuff works and a lot of people swear by it. People love affordable stuff that's decent quality. They'd get a lot of brand loyalty.

It would be even better if companies across the board would do this - clothing, electronics, cookware, etc. I've noticed that most of the clothing there is cheap and horrible. Schmattas. Amazon needs to make a decision - is there going to be at least some quality control, or are they going to be Dollar Tree? If the latter, their prices need to reflect that - I've seen 3 for $1 cornbread mix going for $5 there. Their food prices are outrageous.

At this point all we can do is throw a bunch of seeds out into the world and hope one takes root. There's no guarantees, but this seems like a pretty viable seed.

Edited March 5, 2021 by katrinka

[cirom]

I don’t disagree with your marketing logic, why do you think I chose not to license the last three of my decks to any publishers. It’s so I can decide how and where to sell my work....... and why I chose not to sell  on Amazon, even though it would supposedly mean far more more people would be aware of my self published decks and in turn more sales. But I try to maintain some sense of brand I.e. each deck comes with a matching but separate card (outside of the sealed box) which is stamped with my embossed seal and I personally sign. Hopefully such details add to the personal touch as well as the authenticity. Wether that is ultimately the optimum business decision in terms of the bottom line? Who knows. But publishers work with a less personal mind set, obviously, and their bottom line is that while they are aware of piracy and have responded to the overall attention this topic has generated over the last couple of years, but truth be told business has been good generally and has enjoyed an annual growth, so I guess they see piracy as an inconvenience but not enough of a threat that they would risk abandoning the elephant in the room which is Amazon. I do see piracy as a threat, because despite the overall growth, I believe the growth of piracy is accelerating at an even faster rate. So it’s borrowed time before the inconvenience becomes a threat. Meanwhile, as an independent ..... I choose not to be on Amazon 

[ilweran]

7 hours ago, katrinka said:

And the sales the publishers lose would most likely be made up for by people going directly to their site. They wouldn't even have to give amazon a cut. It worked for Birkenstock. 

With shipping costs from the US what they are I probably just wouldn't buy any mass market decks from, say, US Games if I had to purchase them from their website.

 

Depressingly, from what I see posted on Facebook, too many people just don't care - someone posted the other day that they prefer the versions from Wish, but they do worry they're not official. Not worried enough to not buy them when they so clearly are fake...

 

Some of the fakes on Amazon are so bad it just makes it even worse somehow - I suppose if they've put the effort in you can see how people could be fooled. But doing such a crap job then people in the reviews are complaining it's fake like you couldn't tell at a glance, that annoys me.

[gregory]

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

Be my guest! It might even help. 🙂

 

Oh good. I did sort of mean to ask you, but I was overcome with zeal !

 

18 minutes ago, ilweran said:

With shipping costs from the US what they are I probably just wouldn't buy any mass market decks from, say, US Games if I had to purchase them from their website.

 

You CAN'T buy from their website if you aren't in the US. I just discovered this the hard way and had to get a friend to help out. But there's Watkins for us lucky UK members

[ilweran]

49 minutes ago, gregory said:

You CAN'T buy from their website if you aren't in the US. I just discovered this the hard way and had to get a friend to help out. But there's Watkins for us lucky UK members

I know, but I'm assuming if they stopped allowing Amazon to sell their decks they'd introduce international shipping - which in my experience tends to double the cost of the deck.

 

Something needs to be done about the fakes. Ideally people would stop knowingly buying them, but it appears that won't happen.

[katrinka]

7 hours ago, cirom said:

I don’t disagree with your marketing logic, why do you think I chose not to license the last three of my decks to any publishers. It’s so I can decide how and where to sell my work....... and why I chose not to sell  on Amazon, even though it would supposedly mean far more more people would be aware of my self published decks and in turn more sales.

Yes. And wouldn't you lose artistic control as well, at least to some degree? I seem to recall Karen Mahony mentioning that. Your licensed decks look fine, but if they'd made a mess of them you'd be trying to fight a behemoth. 

 

7 hours ago, cirom said:

But I try to maintain some sense of brand I.e. each deck comes with a matching but separate card (outside of the sealed box) which is stamped with my embossed seal and I personally sign. Hopefully such details add to the personal touch as well as the authenticity.

 

Yes, and the silky bags...it's a wonderful presentation. Mass produced decks can't compete with that.

 

7 hours ago, cirom said:

Wether that is ultimately the optimum business decision in terms of the bottom line? Who knows. But publishers work with a less personal mind set, obviously, and their bottom line is that while they are aware of piracy and have responded to the overall attention this topic has generated over the last couple of years, but truth be told business has been good generally and has enjoyed an annual growth, so I guess they see piracy as an inconvenience but not enough of a threat that they would risk abandoning the elephant in the room which is Amazon. I do see piracy as a threat, because despite the overall growth, I believe the growth of piracy is accelerating at an even faster rate. So it’s borrowed time before the inconvenience becomes a threat. Meanwhile, as an independent ..... I choose not to be on Amazon 

 

I think it might be in their best interest to stop being so tolerant of it, in the long run. Besides Birkenstock, they've lost Nike. And maybe Ikea. There will be more as time goes on. Amazon could end up with mostly counterfeit goods. That's not good if they want to be the one stop for everything. 

 

[Raggydoll]

21 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Amazon could end up with mostly counterfeit goods. That's not good if they want to be the one stop for everything. 

 

“Your one stop for everything fake, just not as cheap as on Wish” 
 

 

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, ilweran said:

I know, but I'm assuming if they stopped allowing Amazon to sell their decks they'd introduce international shipping - which in my experience tends to double the cost of the deck.

 

You'd just look for an authorized dealer. A lot of websites have a store locater, where you can find a dealer reasonably close by. An authorized dealer has a contractual relationship with the manufacturer. They're granted official rights to sell the brand's products. For example: Bloomingdale's, Foot Locker and Nordstom, to name a few, are safe places to buy Birkenstocks because they're authorized. Amazon isn't.

This is different from the third party sellers on amazon. Third party sellers simply purchase goods cheap and sell them at a profit. There's a very good chance that the merchandise is damaged, defective, used, stolen, or pirated.

[gregory]

Wow - THAT bad ? I had no idea.... But the fakes are also om Etsy, FFS, and ebay, of course...

 

I was just trying to track down something my daughter wanted - she had an amazon link that showed it as unavailable; LONG time with google image search and I tracked down the artist - I don't know why amazon no longer has it - I'd like to believe.... but she had no idea, and said it was clearly fake (hers cost three times as much. Yes I paid up !) I reported it to amazon anyway...