Opinions on the artwork for new deck please!

Hey!

I’m creating a new tarot deck and wanted to get some opinions on the artwork.

The deck is called ‘The witches of the Crescent Moon’ and will be an all female deck, thought the card names will remain the same ;)

I’ve added ‘The Fool’ card below but please take a look at my Facebook page as I will be posting a new artwork each day.

facebook.com/WitchesOfTheCrescentMoon

Once all the artwork has been completed I hope to launch on kickstater.com for funding but I wanted to get some opinions of the style or if you spot something I could be doing wrong as I’m not a tarot card user, just a designer haha.

Sorry if you’ve seen this post on another forum, I want to get as many eyes as possible, though it seems the tarot community is spread out after the closer of the biggest :(

Thanks for your time and please don’t hold back

Kirk

How nice of you to share your artwork with us! I don't think there is anything (whatsoever) lacking in the artistical department, however I do see some potential issues with you 'just' being a designer and not actually a tarot reader. There are only so much you can understand by reading literature about tarot, the real insights come with practice. That's when you know what makes a deck work, not just what makes it pretty to look at. I am not trying to discourage you or be rude, but you did tell us not to hold back  8).

I would very much like to hear about your thoughts when you created this picture. What aspects of the Fool archetype were the most important to you? Where do you stand on the more occult side - in regards to astrology, Kabbalah and so forth? There are some small details (or perhaps nuances is a better word?) in this picture that makes me think about how well it would work (for me) in an actual reading. I feel that it deviates slightly from the typical archetype and that these small changes is perhaps moving the possible interpretations in a direction that I am not completely onboard with (I won't get more specific than that cause I want to hear your explanations first  :D). Please note that I have not looked at any of your other art pieces (yet), so that perhaps would change my mind and make me see your vision more completely.

I like the scene construction, it really puts some depth into the card. is that watercolor on a heavy stock? or is the canvas texture a bit heavy turn maybe down the texturizer?

And I think depth is the KEY word in your version of this card. Its point of view is revered form a typical fool card. We are seeing this huge expanse before the fool, rather than the fool blindly walking off the cliff with no thought to his next step.

Raggydoll you beat me to it :) I was typing while you were

I like the scene construction, it really puts some depth into the card. is that watercolor on a heavy stock? or is the canvas texture a bit heavy turn maybe down the texturizer?

 

And I think depth is the KEY word in your version of this card. Its point of view is revered form a typical fool card. We are seeing this huge expanse before the fool, rather than the fool blindly walking off the cliff with no thought to his next step.

 

Raggydoll you beat me to it :) I was typing while you were

:D And then there's the cuddly companion with its sense of intimacy/loyalty that more resembles some Strength-depictions than the traditional Fool versions.. and then there's the feeling that the whole astrological/elemental aspect has been switched as well (but I might be wrong about this, although the name of the deck kind of hints that there would be those kind of changes made).. and then there are some other details that makes me wonder. And yes, I am both traditional and picky. Beauty is not on my top-five requirements on a really good tarot deck (although it sure doesn't hurt if all the other boxes are already checked, so to speak  ;))

you did tell us not to hold back  8).

That I did as I think its always more constructive.  ;D

blindly walking off the cliff with no thought to his next step.

Wow, you've both completely opened my eyes, I know there is a lot of meaning to each and every card but I didn't think I could be that wrong haha! Looking at the RWS deck and the key points behind the card when I started, I took the general feel and this was the result. Do you think that to be a successful deck it can't be an overview it needs to be exact?

But then I can hear you're replies already! She doesn't look foolish, looking out does give the impression of things to come, and the wolf was an upgrade from the dog but it is protecting her instead on leading her on.

Damn, back to the drawing board for this one, maybe the others I've done are closer to the source.

Thanks

Opinion

1) The tail of the wolf needs to be blowing in the wind a bit like her hair.

2) To the right of them, on the same side as the wolf's head, make that an edge or ledge with a big drop or at least open it out more to make it look like there is nothing solid.

The FOOL is usually perched on the cliff as though about to go over it. Like about to make a leap or look as though he is about to do it.

The FOOL is usually perched on the cliff as though about to go over it.

I think I need to move her to the edge without the wolf blocking her and maybe lift a leg a little to make it look like she is about to step off.

Thank you!

Do you think these changes will be enough?

Or you can always turn her slightly to the right side and leave the wolf around her still. I like the wolf. Stepping forward maybe rather than leg slightly up. It is up to you.

Just remember the Fool is at the start of a journey and can be naive as well as careless depending on upright or reversed. Being at the ledge or edge I feel is quite significant however you need to do what fits your style and comfort level.

I am going to be brutally honest with you. Your answers made it clear to me that you are way too inexperienced and not even close to being knowledgeable enough to make a really good tarot deck at this point in time. It does not mean that you should give up on your dream - not at all. It just means that I feel that you have chosen to start in the wrong end, by portraying something that you can't even see properly. It is a lot like trying to design a car - without ever having driven one, let alone having gone through the proper education and years of training that those professionells normally do.

To me, the Tarot represents a complete dictionary of all the basic human archetypes. If you make changes to those archetypal energies, then your dictionary will feel incomplete and be of much less (if any) practical use. So you have to do the work first and really get to know the subject that you want to portray.

you are way too inexperienced and not even close to being knowledgeable enough to make a really good tarot deck at this point in time.

I completely hold my hands up to that fact, and this is why I'm here posting on this site...

Hopefully with the help of you wonderful and knowledgeable people I can make my pretty deck into a useful one  ;D

I may have to disagree with some of the views here. I believe that one does not have to master the Tarot in order to create a good deck, insomuch as any of us have the wherewithal to truly master it. One only has to know and importantly, truly and deeply feel what each card is for, to have an idea of the lessons and ideas and archetypes that each card wishes to impart, if they want to create a deck that people can connect with. One has to craft meanings for each card that is personal to oneself, and for novices, getting a sense of what tradition states that each card means is enough. I don't even think that the deeper esoteric aspects of the Tarot - its attributes and correspondences and Kabbalistic consonance or whatnot - is important for anyone who does not consider it essential. And don't get me wrong - in my studies I have dived and still want to delve deeper into the more esoteric and occult aspects not only of the GD system, but of its offshoots and some of its antecedents as well. It's just that I know some very good readers who haven't explored those depths, and who still have acquitted themselves well in their readings.

The Medieval Scapini is one of the most viscerally beautiful decks I've ever seen, and its images inspire me and many other readers too. I have read accounts that state that at the time when Luigi Scapini created it, he himself didn't know much about the Tarot. And yet he has managed to craft something that endures until now.

First let me congratulate you on your artistic skill - the card you posted is very beautiful. :) I would however encourage you to have a basic understanding of tarot, then from that understanding write a short story about the card you are working on. What is the Fool doing? What's about to happen to him? What are the gifts and challenges he represents? Stick to one tradition (RWS, Thoth, etc.) throughout your deck. I have confidence that you will learn a lot as you create this deck!

Regarding your Fool card, I like it aesthetically. It presents an interesting contrast to the RWS. There, the Fool is spry, optimistic, and full of vim. Here it is a bit somber, dreamy, but still hopeful. The difference may be because the former is depicted during the day while the latter is at night. This is of course alright, since what's important is that it presents someone on the start of his/her journey. You must be clear about how differences like these inform the theme of your entire deck tho.

Remember that you don't have to blindly follow RWS imagery if it does not mesh well with your artistic vision. You don't have to put a literal cliff on your card, but you may want to know what the cliff stands for, and if you want to reflect that meaning in your card. It might be a good thing if through the imagery, you can imbue the journey with some sense of danger and mystery.

I agree with EmpyreanKnight that some people can connect intuitively with archetypal energies and receive great insights without much (if any) previous knowledge of tarot or the occult. However, having a good foundation will certainly never hurt.

I can only speak for myself, but when I buy a deck I have certain expectations on the creator of that deck. I would want them to be able to provide new fresh insights (or perspectives) as well as a deeper understanding of Tarot. And I do not take guide books lightly. I will want to know why certain symbols have been used and that there really is a cohesive vision. But yeah, that might just be me. And it might not surprise anyone to hear that whenever my decks get to choose a significator for me - it’s usually always Justice or King of Swords  ;D So I know that I can be a bit sharp and I apologize if you feel I gave you a hard time 52ravens

Art-wise you are very skilled but I agree to move the wolf. He looks too much like he is blocking the Fool from moving forward and while there are a lot of aspects you could enhance or play down in this card (or any other card for that matter) I think it's important for the Fool to be kind of a free spirit off to new adventures.

However, having a good foundation will certainly never hurt.

I agree with Raggydoll regarding this. I think that a more intimate knowledge of the Tarot would give your cards greater depth and a more evocative feel.

Btw how many cards have you already finished, 52ravens? And are you into witchcraft or Wicca?

What really intrigued me is your vision - what lies behind the name of you deck (like EmpyreanKnight asked - are you a witch and what’s your connection to witchcraft?) and what made you decide to do an all female deck? And how are you planning on addressing the ‘male’ or masculine archetypes that are a part of the traditional system? Just curious!

Art-wise you are very skilled but I agree to move the wolf. He looks too much like he is blocking the Fool from moving forward and while there are a lot of aspects you could enhance or play down in this card (or any other card for that matter) I think it's important for the Fool to be kind of a free spirit off to new adventures.

Building a bit more on this: for me the ambiguity and mystery of the artwork is important, so we're not locked into one meaning for a card and it can work for a myriad of situations. I like to wonder what's going on in the scene of a card, what people are doing and which part of the imagery is important. The little dog in the RWS can represent ones fears, doubts or conscience. So when it tries to hold the Fool back, is it a gut-feeling that something is off or are we just afraid of starting something new, going into the unknown? Similarily, if your wolf wasn't as in front of your Fool as it is now, but a bit off to the side we can wonder if the wolf is trying to communicate something (a primal instinct we should listen to) or if he will gobble her up after she suffers some misfortune on her way, when she acted foolishly ;)

Yes, I agree that the Fool needs to have an air of movement about her. The Fool does not stand still or contemplate the way ahead; he or she is active and moving - either foolishly or with with a sense of trust or hope that things will work out. So, this Fool needs to be walking or skipping, and carrying her bundle with purpose. The wolf is in the way of her movement, so having it either follow her or walk beside her would be an improvement. And seeing the chasm in front of her is also very important. Most people would stop when confronted by such a sight, but the Fool never does. The Fool keeps moving forward.

Everything in a card is a symbol and a message, so it's important to understand why you chose a wolf as her companion and not the traditional dog. Is this a Translyvanian-themed deck, for instance? Or is it set somewhere one would more likely encounter wolves than dogs? Is the wolf her pet, or just a companion who found her as she went on her journey? Wolves for me suggest something primal, a hunter, wildness, fierceness, and perhaps this is the energy you want to imbue your Fool with. It's important to understand, WHY, though. It matters to a reader in how they interpret the message for each querent. What is your Fool's message, symbolised by the wolf?

An exercise that might be useful while you're contemplating each card - particularly as you do not read Tarot cards yourself - is to sit with the cards, look at the imagery, let it speak to you, free associate, play out a movie in your head from the point of view of the Fool, let your own feelings/emotions respond to those images, and create the imagery from that place. What does Fool mean to you? Who are some examples of the Fool archetype that you've met in real life? Where have you been the Fool in your life? What examples of the Fool have you seen in movies, comics, books, etc. Gathering up all these ideas and sifting through them, responding to them, letting them percolate together and then finding the essence of what the Fool means on a personal level to you would be very useful, I think. It's slow work, it's deep work, but I think it could also a lot of fun and an amazingly insightful experience.

ETA: I should add that the artwork is lovely. For me, all that is missing is the sense of depth. And also, we don't see the expression on her face (as is traditional) so perhaps we need to see it in her body language.

Regarding the wolf - my first reaction upon seeing it was not how it's hindering her progress, but how it looks like her protective guardian of sorts. It made me think of how sometimes, that which has always protected us - money, a good family, social status - are the very things which prevents us from moving into uncharted territory, into exploring the world beyond our safe zone, since we're so afraid of losing them.

Instead of letting the wolf stop you from proceeding on your journey, you can instead coax him gently to come with you instead and serve as your own guardian throughout your adventure. Like, if your family has a flourishing business empire, all that security and money might lull you into a sense of just staying put and enjoying all the bounty that life offers. After all, striking out on your own and being an entrepreneur seems like a scary, risky adventure. But if you truly feel the call to be independent, instead of abandoning them or letting them stop you, you may instead use your family's name and connections and money to your advantage as you begin your fledgling businesses.

At least that's how I'd interpret the wolf's quite overbearing vigilance in the card.

Btw, in the original Golden Dawn system, the Fool card has a wolf tho the Fool himself is depicted by a baby. Here is the Fool card from the Golden Dawn Magical Tarot by the Ciceros, which I also have among my working decks.

Thanks for all the input guys it really means a lot.

how many cards have you already finished, 52ravens? And are you into witchcraft or Wicca?

I have the Major Arcana done along with the court of wands. But I'm hoping that as this was my starting point (as I've done them in order) this card will be the worst offender for going a little rouge. Fingers crossed the rest of the cards will sit better with the meaning.

I will be honest, I'm neither into witchcraft or wicca on a serious level. I enjoy the mythology and hoped the blend of witches and tarot would fuel some nice artwork. This is why I need help from you guys to make sure that the design is doing exactly what you need it to. I can research all I like but the knowledge of people that use them day in and day out is so important in the processes of getting it right.

what made you decide to do an all female deck? And how are you planning on addressing the ‘male’ or masculine archetypes that are a part of the traditional system?

The name is something that came about from my playing card project "The Coven", this was an all female deck of playing cards. My next deck "The Sisterhood of Blood" followed an all female vampire theme, and so I was looking to create a new deck of cards but felt that the name and the ideas didn't fit with the designs for playing cards but as a tarot deck I could have a lot of fun.

I'm hoping that the kings and other masculine cards can be overlooked by gender and take that queue from the card name. Do you think this would be possible?

I've been playing around today and hopefully I'll have a new version to look at soon. Maybe after this one I should post 3 or 4 at once to get things really moving  ;D

I thought you were following the RW style.

Personally, I do not think anyone has to be a witch to do a deck like this just maybe have an interest in such things. Obviously, you must be in touch with your feminine side or appreciative of the fairer gender - so kudos to you.

Thanks for all the input guys it really means a lot.

 

how many cards have you already finished, 52ravens? And are you into witchcraft or Wicca?

 

I have the Major Arcana done along with the court of wands. But I'm hoping that as this was my starting point (as I've done them in order) this card will be the worst offender for going a little rouge. Fingers crossed the rest of the cards will sit better with the meaning.

 

I will be honest, I'm neither into witchcraft or wicca on a serious level. I enjoy the mythology and hoped the blend of witches and tarot would fuel some nice artwork. This is why I need help from you guys to make sure that the design is doing exactly what you need it to. I can research all I like but the knowledge of people that use them day in and day out is so important in the processes of getting it right.

 

what made you decide to do an all female deck? And how are you planning on addressing the ‘male’ or masculine archetypes that are a part of the traditional system?

 

The name is something that came about from my playing card project "The Coven", this was an all female deck of playing cards. My next deck "The Sisterhood of Blood" followed an all female vampire theme, and so I was looking to create a new deck of cards but felt that the name and the ideas didn't fit with the designs for playing cards but as a tarot deck I could have a lot of fun.

 

I'm hoping that the kings and other masculine cards can be overlooked by gender and take that queue from the card name. Do you think this would be possible?

 

I've been playing around today and hopefully I'll have a new version to look at soon. Maybe after this one I should post 3 or 4 at once to get things really moving  ;D

Alright, but what we can give you at best are our own ideas as to what we think can be improved or developed in your cards. As you can see in our previous comments, we have diverse and sometimes differing ideas as to what would improve a certain card image, what elements should be retained, added, scrapped altogether, etc. It's up to you as to which advices you'd take or discard. The danger with this is that you may end up with a deck of cards that has no unifying vision behind it, like a broth that's spoiled by too many cooks. I feel that you may want to wade into the cards more, study them in greater detail and develop a personal meaning for each of them. That's the gist of the advice that we have given you, and I personally believe it would be to your benefit if you follow it.

In any case, you created this thread in the Tarot Decks section. It has a subsection called Deck Creations, and if you wish to create additional threads in the future, you should make one there. I think this thread is going to be moved there anyway. Here is the Deck Creations sub:

https://www.thetarotforum.com/deck-creations/

Also, just to give a sense of perspective, check out this link:

http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/pagan-wiccan.shtml

You can see more than a dozen witch/Wiccan decks in there. Look at each one, see how they present a theme behind it, centering on an aspect of their beliefs, lifestyle, or focusing on a certain theme. Some of them are quite general tho tbh. In any case, think of how you'd want to differentiate your product from these other offerings on the market, what you'd like to explore or emphasize in your cards, in your images. You may also get some ideas when you see how the artists developed their own concepts by perusing the card images in the decks that piqued your interest.

This is just a suggestion tho. If you're one of those artists who dislike perusing the works of artists who explore the same concepts as them, it's alright if you skip this.

Tbh I don't know much about the Wiccan/witchy lifestyle, so I can't really help you in that area.