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Thanks again. No, I have never tried reading with an ordinary playing card deck. Somehow, it doesn't appeal to me. I actually own a Tarot de Marseilles deck that I've never tried to read with—so I might try reading with it, and see how I get on. Because the pips aren't illustrated, I can be more ...systematic?...with the meanings, as the artwork won't influence me. The only other pip decks I own are The Neuzeit Tarot by Walter Wegmüller and the Zigeuner Tarot, which is also Wegmüller's. These are the two most bizarre decks I own, and I've had them for many years, but never tried to read with them. I just love the artwork, which is why I bought them. Still love the artwork! However, the pips, while not illustrated with meanings, like the RWS decks, contain such crowded and strange images that it would be difficult to step back and read them in a pragmatic way. I think I'll just continue to treat these two decks as a mini art gallery, and actually attempt to read with the more normal Tarot de Marseilles. 🙂 I don't own any Thoth decks ...yet. 🙂

AUTHOR'S NOTE: When upright, the 7 of Wands represents "Valour" or extraordinary courage in the face of daunting odds. This is clearly reflected in the Waite-Smith version, which shows a harried warrior being set upon by six adversaries who have crowded him into a corner. At that moment in time he has yet to give an inch even though his prospects appear to be dim. But all is not lost. He is holding the "moral high ground" as well as the tactical advantage (as any reading of US Civil War history will confirm), although the Golden Dawn interpreted this card as "possible victory" that is not assured. On balance, though, I like his chances to knock a few heads, and he can always invoke the 8 of Wands and high-tail it out of there in a pinch. (See my previous essay on the Seven, Eight and Nine of Wands as a tale of expedient retreat within the larger context of "confrontation, disengagement and redeployment"). However, its reversal could be read as the valiant but woefully over-matched man-at-arms taking a tumble if his foes manage to sweep his feet out from under him, and the best that can be expected is that he will take some of the enemy down with him as he falls. If he's brought low, he can always try to "kneecap" them and thereby reduce them to his level, after which the battle can resume as an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation. In that sense, what we see in the reversed Seven is not necessarily impending demise but rather an opportunity for a strategic maneuver that levels the playing field (the military term for it is "feint" aimed at exposing the opponent's flank). The Thoth definition, which ignores the finer points of orientation, doesn't offer even this small measure of optimism. It talks about the army being "thrown into disorder" by an attack coming from "all directions without systematic purpose." The card carries the robust imprint of fiery Mars in solar Leo, but when married to Crowley's vision of the "weak, earthy, feminine" Seven (the number of Venus in the Qabalistic pecking-order), the flame is fitful and Mars by itself isn't potent enough to carry the day; it suggests grabbing "the first weapon to hand" which is "evidently unsatisfactory" in fending off the forces arrayed against the seeker. (The besieged combatant's mismatched footwear in the RWS card implies that he donned his armor in haste.) When the 7 of Wands appears reversed in a reading I like to reaffirm the ethical virtues of the seeker's cause that can serve as a "rallying cry" should hope begin to falter. Even if it amounts to escaping the jaws of defeat in an unapologetic "discretion is the better part of valor" and "live to fight another day" frenzy of self-justification, at least up to that point there is still the nobility of "fighting the good fight." We may be stripped of everything up to and including our pride, but knowing we're in the right can take some of the sting out of running away.

Thank you, laforza76. Now I definitely want to read the Traveler’s Report. If I can find an affordable copy, that is. — Such a groovy deck!

These are wonderful, gregory! Thank you very much.

My first full deck had its own system. Practically an oracle in that sense. Years later, I joined Aeclectic and spent a few years exploring. I think TdM was first. I enjoyed a great reading group we had for a line of cards. I wasn't influenced by my previous deck, because it was so different. Then I tried RWS clones. Then RWS. Then the Golden Dawn deck to dig into the roots of RWS. Then the Thoth. I do think it's possible. If you don't want the RWS to be a big influence, then focusing on the art in front of you and having a new reading method should do the trick. Do you read playing cards? I ask because if you aren't thinking of the RWS 7 of cups when looking at the 7 of hearts, you're already on solid ground. Actually, I can think of one problem I'd have... if I read with another system that also had astrology on the cards, but different associations, like Papus, Journey into Egypt or Holy Light -- that might do my head in. To read the Lovers as Taurus, for example (shudders 💀😅) I'd have a hard time letting go of the meaning of Gemini. -- Not that one is 'right' or 'wrong' or best because it was first, etc To me it only matters that I have methods that I've made my own that give useful readings.

Oh, okay. His practice would be similar to Rana George’s then (at least from what I’ve seen in her book). Andy Boroveshengra and Lisa Young Sutton use the MOD, though Lisa has recently been incorporating the Houses in her videos too. I use both, and I think it would be beneficial to know both sides and then combine or pick & choose your methods as they suit your context. As for the criss-cross, yes, you’ll ultimately read both diagonals as a whole. In my personal practice I just mention to the reader that AY diagonal’s influence holds more finality than BX does. Interesting view! Thanks for sharing it. He also views the four bottom cards as an additional row, then. When I’m doing readings, I only see four rows, hence why I read the central four cards in the houses of Birds + Child + Garden + Mountain. I won’t read the bottom four cards until the very end of the reading; in other words when I’m done examining the whole 8*4 tableau, I read those additional cards as a line which is the conclusion/what comes to pass. It’s always best to experiment and see what works for you.

I can't remember where I saw these, but I love the concept of Trishe Jaimes's cards: oracles that are less touchy-feely and more "real world" with focuses on Governance, World Events, or Mysteries. She also does readings on YT where she makes predictions based on these cards. I love the idea of these cards. One of the things I liked immediately about folk cartomancy with playing cards was how specific and direct it was, in comparison to Tarot. What's stopped me from immediately buying is: I don't like the art. I don't know if just her style, but the Walter/Margaret Keane big-eyed kid style sets my teeth on edge. (Weirdly, the website has none of the cards in the Investigation Oracle, but I assume they're similar to the other decks.) Does anyone have these cards? Have you read with them?

No, Serge uses the Houses (or, at least, that's what he's taught us), although I guess there are elements that have come in from MOD, because that shows the flow of energy, then BX, although he reads them altogether as one element. He's also taught us that the focus cards in the center are just the cards in Garden and Mountain, not the four there, because with an 8x4+4 board those are the only central cards.

I read a circle (ABYX) when I’m looking at the flow of external events and how they’re going to play out in the situation. I criss cross when I’m summing up a reading (AY, BX). This usually happens in a smaller spread like the 3*3 portrait. Because the timespan of a Grand Tableau is really broad, the corner cards are going to frame a broad theme as well, so I rarely use that method to sum up a grand tableau. Since I use the 8*4+4 formation, I look at the bottom four cards (the fate line) to see the outcome of a reading. I don’t stick to any one set method, because there are different ways to see each situation. If the cards speak to me in horizontal pairs (as in AB, XY or AX, BY) or zigzags I’ll use them accordingly. Lucky you! He’s a great teacher 🙂 I think he uses the method of distance…? AY and BX is frequently used in that system because you’re looking at where your cards fall primarily. So AY has greater impact than BX does because you’re moving from up to lower right. In the method of distance, cards that fall in the upper rows and to the right have more power.

1) Hair splitting! 🙃. How are you - is 'What ails you' OR 'What is wrong with you' in my book. Perhaps that's why I find it so irritating. 2) What's on your mind today? How have you been, and how can I help you? How is everything going right now for you?

Thank you! Exactly the kind of information I was hoping to get from this thread. May I ask you which system you learned first? Did your knowledge of that system influence your take on the others? I mean, if I started with Thoth or TdM, would my previous knowledge and familiarity with RWS be a big influence? Is it possible to 'start from scratch' with tarot systems, if you already know others?

@Libra 58 Me too! It's well-worn at this point, and warped with very discolored edges. Even though I no longer use it regularly, I absolutely treasure this one-- as gregory says, The first one is special. Plus, it's honestly ready to retire-- I can't imagine who would want it! It's still such a pleasure to peruse though: pull cards, say hi to old freinds, consult, etc.. The art is so beautiful.

@gregory Amazing! I didn't know these books existed! I'll definitely give them a read. As for the Traveler's Report by Kuykendall, I also didn't know that it existed until the 2010s-- and I got the deck when it was first released in the '90s! It was an absolute pleasure to read all those years later. There's quite a bit there to flesh out the story, especially if all you've known is the LWB that comes with the deck. See this link for some good reviews.

Corsets were 'in' at the time of Crowley. Literally and metaphorically. He was certainly a trail-blazer in letting it all hang out - the reality of being human. We tend to only tell our closest friends about our toilet troubles, but they are part of being human. Lust and debauch indicate facts, they're a part of our experience but to not speak of them is de rigueur. You're wearing the corset of social culture. Interestingly, probably part of the reason you love Crowley is likely because he lived his humanity publicly - he was (mostly?) honest as well as smart and studious. All that stuff he was doing was for the most part behind closed doors up until then. What a beast to show his undergarments! Wild. Probably your cards do need to come out in public because explaining Lust and Debauch would convey a sense of the overwhelmed-with-endlessly unsatisfiable desire-filled human - a salivating, grinding groined animal that seeks-hunts-wants (but with all the glamour, now a much worse beast than our ancestors). We no longer openly defecate to feed the soil, much less speak of such 'inelegant' animal activities. Because we want to think better of ourselves and achieve a superficial status. We hide all that is seemingly wrong with us and get neurotic about it - when it's just normal, but we're shackled. (But then there's those who are totally consumed by the lie and programming - a much sicker and more dangerous beast for the environment although completely unawares of it) The court of public opinion has a lot to answer for. No wonder Jesus spat the word hypocrisy with such disgust. We need to bare our undergarments to make the world better - personally and environmentally. Get out your Thoth, and revel in its wildness (and that of your sitter) so it's not a wilderness. Not quite. "How are you?" elicits a silent "what is wrong with you?!?" if you answer it honestly 😆. So they're asking the question, but not with sincerity or hear. Now it's so prevalent in standard fare - I often hear people answer "good" when a different question has been asked. This reveals the automation - and automatons that we are becoming. "What ails you?" Or some variation of it that we might devise here in this conversation is more searching and sincere. It is healing because it turns the table on the lack of care we're displaying. So what are alternatives? "How is your soul today?" Or perhaps asking "How are you - REALLY" is acceptable? But I think we need to inquire into people's souls more. So alternatives: "What's going on in your world?" "How is life treating you?" Please offer some suggestions - I think we could all do a wealth of good. Going back to the counselling question. This may be how we go about getting directions from the sitter's soul the minute they sit down. And we can then proceed to the crossroads faced by the client as indicated in the cards. Whether the client shuffles or not, we can ask for guidance in where we can best help them.

My first deck that I bought was "Tarot of the Cat People" by Karen Kuykendall and that was in December 1992. I still have it and it will soon be 33 years old!😊 It still is in a fine shape, can hardly see that I have used it for daily practise for a year!

The two Andre Norton books > https://www.amazon.com/Mark-Cat-Year-Andre-Norton/dp/1680680196 are great fun and tell you a lot of it. There is the original and a sequel. A full scale story. Buy them - you won't regret it. I enjoyed them more than the Traveler's Report one Kuykendall write....

That sounds great. Is their 2026 catalogue out yet ?

Nice!!! Thank you for the update! I'm very glad they picked this one for the next batch. I made my own version in 2020, but I'll gladly add this one to the collection. Not sure why they put "1880 CA" as this deck was created in 1788 (or 1789 like mentioned in the text). Also, lets hope the cards don't have rounded corners like the preview... There is three versions based on this model (Etteilla I) and I think they have chosen the best of the three. Now, lets hope they release an Etteilla II (1938) and an Etteilla III (1870) decks in the future!

Great discussion topic. Like if a carpenter had 2 kinds of saws that were best for different jobs, but, when left with only one saw, she could still do the work. The Thoth system is my go-to when I'm pathworking, interested in advice for myself, spiritual guidance, etc. (Because it's explicit about the astrology, alchemy, hermetic Qabalah, and color theory that the Golden Dawn Society associated with tarot cards. The ongoing discussion of whether they should have associated those is separate from your post here. I can't argue with the results in my readings, regardless.) TdM is clear and to the point for me, so I prefer it for questions like whether to fix my car or buy a new one, or whether the sitter will get a promotion, etc. (The way I read TdM doesn't require study, really. It's mostly getting used to seeing eye-rhymes and the way the figures face or turn away from one another, how crowded or not the pips look, plus basic numerology you already know from reading with the RWS.) The RWS falls in between for me. I don't think of it as a different system from the Thoth since both are based on the Golden Dawn Society system. But since they put their own slant on it, made some changes, chose how much of the GD system they illustrated on the cards, and finally, since the art styles are not alike -- they end up reading differently despite their common ancestor. (If anything, the RWS reads more like the TdM for me, but less terse. ymmv, obviously)

I'm currently taking a class with Serge Pirotte and have learned AY BX (in 3x3 and GT).

This year I've done a hard turn from RWS into TdM -- between the numerology and the imagery on the cards, I find TdM much easier to read. (And surprisingly, when I've gone back to RWS my readings have become much more fluid. My two current favorite decks are the Nicholas Conver from Artisan Tarot (I think Artisan Tarot has a "typical" card feel, so if you have one of their decks, you know how this feels: kind of like playing cards, shuffles beautifully, with bright colors) and the Jean Perrin by Giordano Berti, which is one of the lesser known Tarots but is great. I love *everything* about this deck: the feel of the card stock, the art, the colors... <chef's kiss>

I'm addressing my query to anybody here who regularly reads with more than one tarot system. By that I mean the RWS, Thoth, Marseille, etc. What are the strengths of each particular system? How do you choose which one to read with, at any given time? I am only familiar with the RWS system, but always wondered about the others. I'm not sure I want to spend the remaining years of my life (I'm 76 now) learning a new system if it's only going to show me what the RWS system already does. However, if there is a lot to be gained by learning another system, then maybe I should! 🙂

Welcome back @Bodhiseed 😀 we missed you last week!

Thank you Fire cat! I'm in with the Tarot by Caro paired with the Holitzka I Ching: There is a tide in the affairs of men... ―William Shakespeare Looks like it's a high tide kind of day, so we better start it with a large cup of caffeine. But above all, we need to prioritize, doing what is most important, what other things hinge on, first. Other tasks that don't really need our oversight can be delegated (let's forget the "but I'm the only one that can do it right" for now). The goal is to get things done while maintaining our sanity and sense of humor. Hexagram 1 has been given several names: the Dynamic, the Receptive and the Creative. Things are constantly in motion and changing, and we would do best to accept things instead of battle them; instead, we focus on creative solutions.

What I am hoping for, is to get back into the swing or reading, eating, sleeping and breathing Tarot - and interacting with like-minded people on the subject. Benebell's book is amazingly packed with stuff - YES to imbibing as much of that as possible with friends along the journey to make it more colourful & enjoyable. (Reading on ones own is sometimes so boring 🙃 - and I always learn better when things are more inter-active). I have had a year-and-a-half of menopause drama (I'm 51 now) - whereby hormonal fluctuations has meant no sleep for all this time (hot flushes). So - life became a struggle to stay awake and carry on working to earn money (in that literal sense) - I had no energy to do anything else at all, including even being polite, bothering to make conversation outside of my 'work box' or taking the time to feed myself properly. It has been quite horrendous. I have now recovered. My NHS G.P.s finally got the HRT dose right for me (a year) - and I have spent an-arm-&-a-leg at a posh naturopaths, to use a plethora of herbs that assist with my hormonal progression as well as other things. Picking an interesting spread and diving in - sounds like a good place to start to me 👍.