Christianity and Tarot

[vague-whisperings]

I grew up in a Christian household (my mom is a catholic convert, and my dad is a pastor's kid) and for a long time, I've been struggling with Christianity. I genuinely feel happy working with it (though the church itself has many, many issues that I dislike), but I also do love my tarot cards. Unfortunately, I have a hard time reconciling the two as tarot cards are considered 'devil magic/worship', as repeatedly stated by my parents. So those of you who are Christian, or Christian-adjacent, how do you rationalize both, when they seem so contradictory to each other? Additionally, those of you who are queer and Christian, how did you find your place within the church when they are known to be queerphobic?

[vulprix]

I am so happy to respond to this topic.
 

For background, I grew up cradle Catholic, quite devout. Due to queer, ecological, and feminist reasons, I pretty naturally became an unbeliever at around age 14 or 15, and was agnostic for years.

 

Divination actually helped me feel closer to God from the very start. It jump-started a lot of the fears and worries that you are referencing. It hasn’t been an easy ride, but I have studied religion simultaneously along with the tarot and it has been a very worthwhile path. I also managed to make peace with Jesus, at least, along the way. God, Mary, Jesus and all the saints have a place in my worship and heart.

 

But I identify as a pagan, heathen, and that is just the truest to who I am currently. I have not held traditional Christian beliefs in a long time, but I have great respect for many of the teachings of Christianity. I hope this helps.

[surreal]

I am not a christian so cannot help much. However I have come across a book that you might find interesting. It is called "Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey Into Christian Hermeticism" by Valentin Tomberg who  was an Estonian-Russian Christian mystic, scholar, and hermetic magician..

[LogicalHue]

I always find it odd when people have this problem because for me I have a hard time with the fact that the symbolism in Tarot - particularly RWS - is so deeply Biblical. If you look through the RWS its all God and Angels, so many Angels. It seems like it should be easier for Christians, rather than more difficult.

[vague-whisperings]

3 hours ago, vulprix said:

Divination actually helped me feel closer to God from the very start. It jump-started a lot of the fears and worries that you are referencing.

I'm glad I'm not the only one lmao :^) how do you incorporate your divination? do you participate in traditional christian activities, like church going?

 

@surreal ty! ill have to look at it :0 is it available online?

 

@LogicalHue its not just RWS though. its any deck. most of my decks arent RWS and they still didnt like it so 🙃

[LogicalHue]

Well my comment was focused on your feelings about it. Who's "they" and why does it matter what they think?

[katrinka]

Do you believe it's a sin for a woman to cut her hair, or a man to grow his? That's in the New Testament. 
The Bible is full of prohibitions. Just try to be a good person and don't worry about following that other stuff to the letter. The clergy certainly doesn't, as we know from the news outlets. 

 

[vulprix]

1 hour ago, vague-whisperings said:

I'm glad I'm not the only one lmao :^) how do you incorporate your divination? do you participate in traditional christian activities, like church going?

I only go to Catholic Mass with my family or maybe a friend (you know, pre-COVID anyway), but even then it might be once a year. Mass used to be very painful for me and I would stubbornly avoid it because I am vehemently against creeds that state things I do not believe. I’m still that way—but now I just don’t say the creed if I am at a service 🙂

 

For a while, I tried going to a Lutheran church for the community and the service, but I’ve realized that I’m way too anxious about that kind of situation. It turned out poorly and it was not a good fit. I am currently a solitary pagan who makes her own rituals. I do sometimes pray my own version of the Rosary and I definitely read the Bible pretty often, but I do not worship Jesus as G-d.

 

I do not overtly connect my divination with a higher power, and try to use it more as a reflective and creative tool. But I do like a predictive reading now and again 🙂 I don’t think too much about it, but I do think of evoking an answer as a kind of “prayer”—a call and response.

[Arcadia]

Both my parents raised me and my family to be Christians, i was always told to respect people for who they are regardless of race, colour and religion. When i first got into to Tarot i was afraid what my family and friends thought about my interest, but over the years they have come to accept it and Tarot can enrich people's lives to be able to help others so not sure why Tarot gets a bad rap. The thing that really annoys me the most are ignorant people who are prejudiced about anything that they simply don't understand about.  

Edited October 23, 2020 by Arcadia

[vague-whisperings]

6 hours ago, LogicalHue said:

Well my comment was focused on your feelings about it. Who's "they" and why does it matter what they think?

oh dnsjsn my bad. they being my parents. i live with them still :^) ive had a few encounters where my dad saw my tarot cards (neon moon and adventurers deck) and told me to throw them out bc they were demonic. i uh. Did Not Do That. 

 

and tbh i have deep fears of disappointing them. they dont put any pressure to be good but i do, unfortunately. im v prone to holding myself to impossible standards lmao

 

also i have beef with the concept of an all powerful god who cant communicate through tarot or other practices. it seems like a contradictory statement tbh

 

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

When i first got into to Tarot i was afraid what my family and friends thought about my interest, but over the years they have come to accept it and Tarot can enrich people lives to be able to help others so not sure why Tarot gets a bad rap.

how did you explain it to them? :0 i generally just let my dad (were v close) take the lead bc he knows more than i do about things. not all the time, as is the case here, but still

 

5 hours ago, vulprix said:

But I do like a predictive reading now and again 🙂 I don’t think too much about it, but I do think of evoking an answer as a kind of “prayer”—a call and response.

oh thats a good way of looking at it :0 tysm!

 

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

Just try to be a good person and don't worry about following that other stuff to the letter.

thats true! imo its hypocritical bc some christians will cherry pick certain parts of the bible, which is something i condemn personally, so it feels weird to then pick parts of the bible to justify tarot

[katrinka]

8 hours ago, vague-whisperings said:

thats true! imo its hypocritical bc some christians will cherry pick certain parts of the bible, which is something i condemn personally, so it feels weird to then pick parts of the bible to justify tarot

 

Exactly! Jesus loathed hypocrisy. And didn't mind breaking rules, like healing on the Sabbath.

On the one hand, the Bible forbids divination, but on the other, it's full of prophets, dream interpretation, astrologers....some methods were allowed, others weren't. And Tarot didn't even exist yet. So it's really kind of a non-issue.

[Guest]

If you pray and you ask for guidance, you might receive a sign or some answer to guide you on your path.  That is no different from divination.  

 

The other thing who can speak for God? 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Guest

[LogicalHue]

Those are some nice looking decks I did not know about.

 

I've never dealt super well with people caring a lot about what their parents think, it's a sore spot for me. My dad was not supportive of Tarot when I got into it, but I don't remember specific conversations about it and he didn't push. (Of course, my mom was the one getting me into it.) But he's fine about it now. He is a retired Episcopal priest but he was never fire-and-brimstone-y traditional and he doesn't believe in hell or the devil.

 

I feel like Tarot, in general, is one of those things you either get or you don't. I'm not sure there's anything you can say or do to make someone comfortable with it who isn't but to continue to practice and eventually they'll notice you haven't turned into a devil worshipper. The Devil's a bad card 😝

[Grace]

How do I rationalise both. That is a good question.

 

As I've gotten older, I've realised that most of the religions and belief systems in the world are at their core trying to communicate the same thing. Albeit, they go about it in different ways - they are all disseminated by man. Enlightened men perhaps, but flesh and blood humans all the same. Humans that are as flawed as they can be intelligent. Which is why religion is so imperfect and contradictory. 

 

Tarot is just one tool in my spiritual tool box. As is meditation. As is prayer. As is taking communion on the odd occasion I go to church. As is shamanic journeying..... and all of the other little rituals and practices I partake in. No person is any one thing only (no matter how much easier it would be to friends or family if we were). Perhaps I'm comfortable with the idea of my double faith, as it is all I've ever known. I grew up practicing both my native faith, along side Roman Catholicism. 
 

How do I deal with the people who don't approve? I don't. All throughout history, we have evolved as people and societies. We have grown, leant and discovered amazing things about ourselves, the world and the universe around us. But for some reason (and there are many reasons), some religion has all of a sudden become stagnant and stuck in the past. Faith and religion are two different things. And for some people, one or the other, or both are no longer living breathing things that grow with humanity to become a better version of what it once was. And you know what? That is OK. That might be what those people need, and I have very little interest in trying to convince anyone that tarot, or journeying, or whatever else I do, is not devil worship. 

[Arcadia]

My parents probably didn't understand much what Tarot was about, so they never had any serious concerns about my interests with Tarot. The same with my closest friends they seemed supportive and they now usually ask for a reading. I have always been into the paranormal and New age stuff so it never came to any surprise to those that know me. . 

[gregory]

My father was an Anglican minister (It didn't take; I am absolutely not - and he was fine with that.). He thought my interest in tarot was interesting. He also used to pull supportive bits out of the Bible to amuse me.

 

Here's an interesting article:

 

http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/38/obrien.html 

 

Quote

Since there are so many instances in the Bible in which God provides answers to his followers through divination—either Urim and Thummim or the casting of lots (used in the New Testament to pick Matthias as the replacement for Judas)—we ask ourselves how it can be that divination has come to be portrayed as evil by fundamentalist religions and sects

 

Quote

Based on a fair and balanced look at the biblical record, it is safe to conclude that our western God intended us to use divination systems to better interpret the divine plan. In ancient times, only the high priest had the power of direct access. Luckily, all spiritually inclined people alive today have access to better divination systems—like the I Ching and Tarot. We are now able to go direct on our own, bypassing religious and political hierarchies altogether.

 

My mother thought it completely illogical that I could "believe in" cards (her phrase) and not god. She decided that I must believe in god really and hadn't realised....

 

All that said - the Christian imagery is massively important within the tradition and doesn't trouble me at all. Christianity is just another mythology, like the religions of everyone who has one. I treat the appearance of the holy spirit (Waite Ace Cups) with the same mindset as I do that of - say - Sobek in the Thoth  (Fool) - a figure who means xyz in that particular mythology.

Edited October 24, 2020 by gregory

[Arcadia]

7 hours ago, gregory said:

 

 

Here's an interesting article:

 

http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/38/obrien.html 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Arcadia

[Arcadia]

That was a very interesting article Gregory, 

 

Although I was brought up as a Christian I haven’t been to church for many years, as I have become older my interests in Tarot have taken me to a whole new level of awareness and it’s given me more spiritual freedom to believe in other things besides religion. I am more happier then i have ever been using Tarot as an aid for guidance, 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by Arcadia

[AlbaTross]

As a Christian, I felt discouraged from trying Tarot for the past several years, especially since one of my pastors told me it's sorcery.  But, I got my first novelty deck at a convention in January, and as of  a few months ago (I think), I picked it back up again.  The reason why I stopped initially was because I thought I was opening myself up to interacting with all manner of spirits by doing Tarot.  After some research I came to realize that's not what I was doing at all.

 

Anyways, I get around the whole Christian angle by practicing Secular Tarot.  Basically, instead of the cards being magic, I believe they simply help evoke certain thoughts, and can guide me by helping inform decisions in that way.  Actually, it would be false to say I've completely closed the door on the notion of the cards being divination.  I don't believe the cards are magic or that I am, but as I believe God can speak through pretty much anything He wants to, He can certainly speak to me through cards if He so desires.  I can't say whether I'm always receiving a message from God when I read the cards, but I can say that it is a possibility I am open to.  So...yeah, for me the cards aren't sorcery.  The term cartomancy certainly doesn't help, but it is very much possible to read Tarot without the mystical element.  

[katrinka]

Pretty much that. 
Cards are cards, we don't have to look at them like they're a message from God or angels or any of that. The fact is, we don't know how they work. Some people find that scary - how do you know demons aren't doing it? But I've been using cards since some time between Alice Cooper's Killer and School's Out, and while I've had some runs of rotten luck, it's been no worse than what my non-cardslinging friends have experienced. And at least I had the cards to tip me off!

Pastors are especially problematic. I actually attended a fundie church for awhile in the 80's, not because I bought that line, but because I wanted to understand how crazy people who fall on the floor babbling nonsense all had expensive cars and homes, and I was busting my tail - with a good IQ, no less - and making not quite enough to live on. (The answer is that they stick together - if one of them is administration somewhere, they hire other fundies.) But one thing I noticed: the pastor wanted everybody utterly dependent on the church. Don't listen to "secular music", the devil will come into your life and wreck it. Don't watch movies (especially The Last Temptation of Christ - horrors!) Don't read this and that book, stay away from nonchristians unless you're trying to convert them, etc. The whole idea was to isolate the congregation and make them utterly dependent. It was a cult, and Tarot certainly didn't fit into it, because people get answers from cards right there in their homes,  all by themselves, and the churches can't have that!

I'm not saying Christianity is bad in itself. Fred Rogers had an impressive ministry:
 

 

Johnny and June Carter Cash visited prisons and made life a little more bearable for those guys:

 

 Martin Luther King sacrificed himself - that's right, he knew what was coming, and kept pushing. HE. KNEW. HE. WOULD. BE. MURDERED. SOON. Watch this again with that in mind:

 

 

But the real ones are getting more and more uncommon. It's sad, because Jesus was all about looking out for others and being a better person. It was all about mercy and compassion, like Tara or Kuan Yin. But these days, when I hear "Jesus" I just tune out. Too many Pat Robertsons and Franklin Grahams and all that. 

Edited October 25, 2020 by katrinka

[vague-whisperings]

Ty all for answering! This was all super helpful, and I think I've at least found a sort of balance with the cards and my faith, if it can be named as such. It's a big, complicated thing, since I'm now realizing that spirituality is multifaceted and messy, so there's definitely going to be more searching on my end to define what it is I believe. But at least, for now, the cards have a part in it. Thank you all for your input ❤️

[TheLoracular]

Arthur Waite of RWS fame was devoutly Christian as were many of the other Golden Dawn founders.  The Rosicrucians, Freemasons, most of the early "occult" orders were steeped in Christian mysticism.  Paul Foster Case is probably one of my favorite Christian esotericists and his organization, The Builders of the Adytum (B.O.T.A) to this day espouses a kind of Christ-affirming, life-affirming, light-affirming mysticism that is very profound imo.   

One of the best books I've ever read on the topic is Signs & Wonders - Tarot Cards for Christians and if you've never seen it, look at the Connolly tarot. Eileen Connolly is a modern academic, tarot scholar and Christian mystic.  Her book Tarot: A New Handbook For The Apprentice is a little dated now and not the easiest of reads but very powerful in its positive faith-based approach to tarot.  

 

[Arch]

I broke away from seventh day adventism at age 18, twenty years ago.

I converted to Taoism, but that didn't do the whole trick, as I often feel stuck in a Christian moral universe.

Reading tons of Jung worked for me in a way, but I don't know if I will recomend that as a cure for someone that is still Christian.

 

The way I see it, organized religions tend to want a monopoly on speaking with God.

Tarot is a way to communicate with God/The Divine.

The church don't like then the plebs find alternate paths to heaven, it makes them irrelevant and out of a job.

Yet there is much more to it than that, there are tons of unpleasant reasons that could be put in their defence other than just wanting to get by on holding sermons.

[katrinka]

On 12/24/2020 at 5:48 PM, Arch said:

I converted to Taoism, but that didn't do the whole trick, as I often feel stuck in a Christian moral universe.

We do get the more hypocritical Calvinist Christian "morals" shoved in our faces quite a bit. But as for what Jesus actually preached - give your money to the poor, feed the hungry, visit the prisoner, etc. - it's pretty rare. 

 

On 12/24/2020 at 5:48 PM, Arch said:

Tarot is a way to communicate with God/The Divine.

I have to take exception to this.
If there is some being or is-ness behind life, consciousness, planets, etc., I doubt it concerns itself with where we misplaced our keys or whether X will ask us out.
At best, we have no clue what we're "communicating" with when we read cards. We may believe this or that, but that's a far cry from knowing.

[Arch]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:25 AM, katrinka said:

We do get the more hypocritical Calvinist Christian "morals" shoved in our faces quite a bit. But as for what Jesus actually preached - give your money to the poor, feed the hungry, visit the prisoner, etc. - it's pretty rare.

 

Yeah, there is so much hypocricy.

Not by all, but especially from the people who use the church as a vessel for status and power.

 

Quote

I have to take exception to this.
If there is some being or is-ness behind life, consciousness, planets, etc., I doubt it concerns itself with where we misplaced our keys or whether X will ask us out.
At best, we have no clue what we're "communicating" with when we read cards. We may believe this or that, but that's a far cry from knowing.

 

Yeah I can get that.

I'm not refeering to a metaphysical Divinity though.

I'm philosophically influenced by both Taoism and Jungian ideas, so I'm more talking about the self and an inner God image here.

In the end all I find at the end of the metaphysical road is emptiness and silence for answers.

I'm content with that, and believe that whatever I see in the cards are projected from my unconscious.

I do not rule out a metaphysical divine order doing stuff beyond my comprehension,

but I do think that if there is such a thing, it has more or less left us to our own devices.