Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 Hello everyone, So I am experimenting with a technique in finding squares and challenges in my birthchart, pairing the planetary aspects with the Tarot and seeing what insights I can get. I wanted to see your opinions on how the cards Judgement and Wheel of Fortune could create turmoil or opposition in their pairing.
fire cat pickles Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 I wouldn't think there would be any turmoil with this pairing; Judgement being Fire and Jupiter (Wheel of Fortune), also Fire, being in its Rulership in Sagittarius, a Fire sign; unless you consider a reading heavy in one element itself "turmoil". Specific angles (i.e., "squares", "oppositions". etc.) themselves don't necessarily make for hard aspects; this depends on the planets and the nature of the planets involved. There is no planet traditionally associated with Judgement, although some schools of thought assign Pluto to it.
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 Thank you for your response! I am aware that Judgment typically does not have an astrological association, but is related to Shin. I was simply going off what many people theorize as its planetary ruler. As you mentioned, it is difficult to place turmoil between these two cards, since they are both of a fiery nature. What I was getting out of it however, was that the concept of change, although in different aspects, are associated to these cards. The Wheel being the cycles and change in the universe and judgment possibly pertaining to a crossroads, a difficult decision which leads to an awakening of sorts, or the ending of a matter to begin a new cycle. Could this possibly hint toward these archetypes being in a sort of disagreement with each other, leading to an inner struggle with change and transitions in life?
Decan Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sahirlvx said: What I was getting out of it however, was that the concept of change, although in different aspects, are associated to these cards. The Wheel being the cycles and change in the universe and judgment possibly pertaining to a crossroads, a difficult decision which leads to an awakening of sorts, or the ending of a matter to begin a new cycle. Could this possibly hint toward these archetypes being in a sort of disagreement with each other, leading to an inner struggle with change and transitions in life? It's what I was thinking concerning your question here, and I deduced something similar too: changes could be related to problems and challenges. There are changes we want and anticipate, other changes which are endured without real preparation. As well, some people don't like changes at times or refuse them (when they are needed). It's a general theme you can develop if it resonates. Your natal chart is what you need to focus in any case; personally I don't mix astrology with Tarot. Edited November 30, 2020 by Decan
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 11 hours ago, Decan said: It's what I was thinking concerning your question here, and I deduced something similar too: changes could be related to problems and challenges. There are changes we want and anticipate, other changes which are endured without real preparation. As well, some people don't like changes at times or refuse them (when they are needed). It's a general theme you can develop if it resonates. Your natal chart is what you need to focus in any case; personally I don't mix astrology with Tarot. Thanks for your reassurance! I like what you said about "changes endured without preparation." That resonates with me.
Decan Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 Okay! To come back to your chart Mars bad aspected can be disruptive (as well Uranus): something around these planets?
Guest Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 16 hours ago, fire cat pickles said: There is no planet traditionally associated with Judgement, although some schools of thought assign Pluto to it. Papus associated Saturn with Judgement and Virgo with The Wheel of Fortune.
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) So my chart, for the most part, has conjunctions and sextiles; however, Mars and Jupiter are two planets that seem to have some difficulties. They are squares and quincunxes. Mars in Gemini (retrograde)/8th house in quincunx with Neptune in Capricorn/2nd house Mars in Gemini (retrograde)/8th house in quincunx with Pluto in Scorpio/1st House Mars in Gemini (retrograde)/8th house in quincunx with Ascendant (Scorpio) Jupiter in Leo/9th house in quincunx with Neptune in Capricorn/2nd house Jupiter in Leo/9th house square with Pluto in Scorpio/1st house Jupiter in Leo/9th house square with Ascendant(Scorpio) Edited November 30, 2020 by Sahirlvx
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 1 minute ago, timtoldrum said: Papus associated Saturn with Judgement and Virgo with The Wheel of Fortune. Interesting. Do you know why he changed the attribution of Jupiter with Virgo for the Wheel of Fortune? I feel that with the Wheel being connected to Chesed and Netzach, in Qabalistic terms, makes more sense for Jupiter being its ruling planet; however, I am open to new ideas.
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Decan said: Okay! To come back to your chart Mars bad aspected can be disruptive (as well Uranus): something around these planets? So my chart, for the most part, has conjunctions and sextiles; however, Mars and Jupiter are two planets that seem to have some difficulties. They are squares and quincunxes. Mars in Gemini (retrograde)/8th house in quincunx with Neptune in Capricorn/2nd house Mars in Gemini (retrograde)/8th house in quincunx with Pluto in Scorpio/1st House Mars in Gemini (retrograde)/8th house in quincunx with Ascendant (Scorpio) Jupiter in Leo/9th house in quincunx with Neptune in Capricorn/2nd house Jupiter in Leo/9th house square with Pluto in Scorpio/1st house Jupiter in Leo/9th house square with Ascendant(Scorpio)
Guest Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 34 minutes ago, Sahirlvx said: Interesting. Do you know why he changed the attribution of Jupiter with Virgo for the Wheel of Fortune? I feel that with the Wheel being connected to Chesed and Netzach, in Qabalistic terms, makes more sense for Jupiter being its ruling planet; however, I am open to new ideas. He did not change it. There has never been an accepted paradigm or standard scheme. Papus’ associations are another construct tradition. Zain associates the Moon with Judgement and Uranus with the Wheel of Fortune. Colette Silvestre gives both cards Mercury and Uranus. Jupiter is a masculine and diurnal planet of a Sanguine (air) nature. His houses are Sagittarius and Pisces, which straddles Saturn’s. He is the greater benefic and associated temperance and justice as well as the law (which includes religion). Consequently, I have never understood the attribution to the Wheel of Fortune. Of course, I am also not an initiate of the Golden Dawn so do not have access to their teachings. Sorry.
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 32 minutes ago, timtoldrum said: He did not change it. There has never been an accepted paradigm or standard scheme. Papus’ associations are another construct tradition. Zain associates the Moon with Judgement and Uranus with the Wheel of Fortune. Colette Silvestre gives both cards Mercury and Uranus. Jupiter is a masculine and diurnal planet of a Sanguine (air) nature. His houses are Sagittarius and Pisces, which straddles Saturn’s. He is the greater benefic and associated temperance and justice as well as the law (which includes religion). Consequently, I have never understood the attribution to the Wheel of Fortune. Of course, I am also not an initiate of the Golden Dawn so do not have access to their teachings. Sorry. The Golden Dawn follows this strongly due to its Qabalistic connection. Because it connects to Chesed, which is ruled by Jupiter, it has a macro and microcosmic meaning. Chesed is the point where manifestation begins; therefore it's said to contain the blueprint of the Universe, as well as the self (on a microcosmic sense). Chesed is an expansive and benevolent sephirah, which is why it is assigned to Jupiter, as well as it's association to Saturn through mythology (Chesed is after Binah which is Saturn). The fact that the wheel can be associated to destiny and destination connects to our inner blueprint that resides in Chesed. As Chesed is also the blueprint of the Universe, it can be said that the wheel shows the sphinx, an amalgamation of the elements, and, in the Golden Dawn version, the 12 colored spokes as the wheel representing the zodiac. As these are considered building blocks of the universe, the wheel connects to Chesed as being the wheel of the continuous cycles of change pouring from the blueprint or grand architect of the Universe, Chesed.
Guest Posted November 30, 2020 Posted November 30, 2020 (edited) Hi @Sahirlvx Do you know, you have given me the clearest and best explanation of GD’s rationale I’ve seen. I confess I do not have any knowledge of the Qabalah but it is helpful to know some of their (GD) thinking. Thank you. I will dig out Papus and see if he states why Virgo goes with trump X. He has his system, but I will look. Edited November 30, 2020 by Guest
Sahirlvx Posted November 30, 2020 Author Posted November 30, 2020 1 hour ago, timtoldrum said: Hi @Sahirlvx Do you know, you have given me the clearest and best explanation of GD’s rationale I’ve seen. I confess I do not have any knowledge of the Qabalah but it is helpful to know some of their (GD) thinking. Thank you. I will dig out Papus and see if he states why Virgo goes with trump X. He has his system, but I will look. I am an initiate of the GD system, so of course, I heavily follow their attributions. There is much more that can be said about that particular connection; however, it can be a bit of a rabbit hole to go down haha. I appreciate our conversation and look forward to hearing what you dig up from Papus!
fire cat pickles Posted December 3, 2020 Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) On 11/30/2020 at 12:52 PM, timtoldrum said: Papus associated Saturn with Judgement and Virgo with The Wheel of Fortune. This is very interesting. Lately I've gotten ahold of Papus's' "The Science of Numbers". I'll have to look more closely at his tarot stuff. I'm always keen for more of the unorthodox 😉 Here's an online version of his "The Tarot of the Bohemians" https://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/index.htm Edited December 3, 2020 by fire cat pickles
Guest Posted December 3, 2020 Posted December 3, 2020 On 11/30/2020 at 8:37 PM, Sahirlvx said: I am an initiate of the GD system, so of course, I heavily follow their attributions. There is much more that can be said about that particular connection; however, it can be a bit of a rabbit hole to go down haha. I appreciate our conversation and look forward to hearing what you dig up from Papus! One of the reasons that I have never studied the GD system is that I see it as initiatory. The literature that I have read did leave me thinking that there is more. I will dig Papus out. 4 hours ago, fire cat pickles said: This is very interesting. Lately I've gotten ahold of Papus's' "The Science of Numbers". I'll have to look more closely at his tarot stuff. I'm always keen for more of the unorthodox 😉 Here's an online version of his "The Tarot of the Bohemians" https://www.sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/index.htm Hello @fire cat pickles. How are you doing? Papus is an interesting figure. But I never adopted his system. I’ve known a few readers who swear by his pip meanings. I can see the logic of Saturn with Judgement but I could also see arguments for the Sun or Jupiter.
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