Do you think a Tarot deck creator imprints or determines the potential of the deck?

January 5, 2021

Do you think the quality of the reader/deck "relationship" is pre-ordained by the intent (or perceived spiritual authenticity) of the deck creator? Also, how much of the deck/reader experience is actually influenced by the "author", as I would naively imagine that the illustrator is the predominant influence on how a reader engages and experiences a deck? I'm really curious about people's thoughts on this one.

My own background is that I have recently acquired and am quite enamored with the Wildwood Deck, it really speaks to me deeply. I am also aware of some (but not all) of the baggage behind Mark Ryan's dealings with Chesca Potter and the Greenwood deck which clearly inspired many elements of the Wildwood.

I'm happy for perspectives on the GW/WW decks, but am more broadly interested in whether decks are inherently "tainted" by the baggage surrounding their creation or the people involved.

January 5, 2021

The Thoth is probably primary in this. Many normally bright open mind/heart people won't touch it...tainted by "the most evil man alive" histrionics. Nonsense. history and today's paper are full of people who would make Crowley look like a crying babypants.

The same could be said of any art, movies and paintings come to mind. I've decided over time I don't want to know about the artist's private life. I makes me judgmental.

I love Wil Kinghan's art. I find the Shaman's Oracle one of my deepest decks of all and the Celtic Lenormand is delightful. Somewhere in the last 10 years my personal opinion is John Matthews has gone off the rails which has lead others down the same path which I think lead to some unfortunate outcomes.

Love your deck. The art is wonderful. Ignore the haters 🙂 it is all opinion.

January 5, 2021

I don’t think I’ve ever had a deck where I loved the artwork but couldn’t stand the deck as a whole because of its creator. Typically when I have issues with a creator it is partly because of what they have put in their deck. For me it’s mostly around cultural misappropriation and harmful stereotypes that I will have issues so severe that I stay away. For a while I struggled similarly with runes due to the white supremacy that surrounds many of its contemporary users. I did get over that though, because it think otherwise we’d throw a wonderful heritage away. People need to see that not all rune readers are like that.

January 5, 2021

3 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I don’t think I’ve ever had a deck where I loved the artwork but couldn’t stand the deck as a whole because of its creator. Typically when I have issues with a creator it is partly because of what they have put in their deck. For me it’s mostly around cultural misappropriation and harmful stereotypes that I will have issues so severe that I stay away.

This.
Crowley was racist and antisemitic, but that didn't make it into the deck. I have no idea of Lady Harris's views about race, but again, the deck doesn't reflect any bigotry.
And they're deceased, so they're not getting my money anyway. It's like reading old books or watching old movies. I can't fight what happened then, I can only fight now.

But a living author or artist who espoused that stuff wouldn't get my money, even if they kept it out of their product. And that's similar to how I feel about Ryan. I don't know his views on race, either, but I do know that he's corrupt. Now he wants to reprint the Greenwood.

I'm not telling anyone else not to use the deck, I'm not the arbiter of that. But for me it's nope, nope, and nope.
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=999211806933680&id=997732667081594

Quote

For a while I struggled similarly with runes due to the white supremacy that surrounds many of its contemporary users. I did get over that though, because it think otherwise we’d throw a wonderful heritage away. People need to see that not all rune readers are like that.

Not only that, the old time NORSE weren't like that.
https://www.ualberta.ca/folio/2020/07/white-supremacists-are-misappropriating-norse-mythology-says-expert.html

It's possible for something to become so tainted that it becomes unusable (case in point: the swastika) but I think we can still salvage the runes. A LOT of good people are appalled by the alt righters, and they're speaking up.
https://www.thelocal.se/20171006/we-cant-let-racists-re-define-viking-culture-far-right-runes-swedish

Edited January 5, 2021 by katrinka

January 5, 2021

All of that said, though, I think an inept creator can ruin a deck.
We're seeing a lot of that these days. Artists with little or no Tarot knowledge are designing decks, and there's some hilariously bad ones out there.
You can't just google meanings and make a good Tarot.

January 5, 2021

1 hour ago, SilverLeaf said:

more broadly interested in whether decks are inherently "tainted" by the baggage surrounding their creation or the people involved.

I think this depends on us. Whether a deck with 'baggage' works well for us depends on whether that changes our own feelings about it. I discovered the history of the Wildwood/Greenword controversies some time after falling for the deck, and it did, briefly, interfere with how I felt when using it. There are other aspects to consider, though; Will Worthington (artist) and John Matthews (co-creator) also benefit from buying the deck, and irrespective of what Mark Ryan may have done, I do feel they thoroughly deserve it. The other aspect is that I don't know, and will never know, the truth of the full story, or indeed the people involved. It's been painted as a black-and-white situation, but I've learned not to judge things like this based on what I've read.

1 hour ago, SilverLeaf said:

Do you think the quality of the reader/deck "relationship" is pre-ordained by the intent (or perceived spiritual authenticity) of the deck creator? Also, how much of the deck/reader experience is actually influenced by the "author", as I would naively imagine that the illustrator is the predominant influence on how a reader engages and experiences a deck?

This is the really interesting part, for me! I think the answer is that it changes over time. When first using a deck, I'm constrained largely by the intent behind the cards. The message that comes to me is based on my understanding of the cards, but if I haven't yet built up familiarity with the deck, then the original authors' (i.e. those writing the interpretation) words are my main source of meaning. If it was confused, then that confusion comes into the reading as well.

However, after a while the authors' intent becomes less important, and our relationship with the artwork itself is what matters. We learn a deck and settle on our own understandings of the cards, and these take precedence over the 'little white book'. Deep and meaningful imagery can more than make up for inept explanation. With the Wildwood, I feel that it's Will and John who had the most influence over how the deck reads, and what insights it can give us.

January 5, 2021

2 minutes ago, Wanderer said:

Will Worthington (artist) and John Matthews (co-creator) also benefit from buying the deck, and irrespective of what Mark Ryan may have done, I do feel they thoroughly deserve it.

I'm a believer in the adage "when you lay down with dogs, you get fleas."
Figuratively - my dogs do NOT have fleas.

January 5, 2021

After the furore around the GW reprint I did deliberately stop using the WW for a while. The whole thing left a bad taste I couldn't ignore. I've relaxed a bit on that now - if I didn't own it already I wouldn't buy it now, but I do, those bits of card have nothing to do with any of it really. And I've long quite liked Will Worthington's art.

It's more about not wanting to show support for a person or company than anything they may have imprinted on the deck. I never bought the second Mythic Tarot because of how the artist of the original was treated.

January 5, 2021

12 minutes ago, ilweran said:

It's more about not wanting to show support for a person or company than anything they may have imprinted on the deck. I never bought the second Mythic Tarot because of how the artist of the original was treated.

Yes. This.
And you already had the Wildwood. That's quite different from knowing everything beforehand and buying the deck anyway.

Edited January 5, 2021 by katrinka

January 5, 2021

Thank you for this very interesting thread♥

You ALL wrote wonderfully exactly how I feel about this.

With a reading deck, I can not "un-know", what I do know and it taints my productive work with that deck.

I also will not buy a deck where I know, that there is a huge controversy or the proverbial Elephant stares at me through every image.

With the GW/ WW thing, I am a bit too close to the center of that, to say anything here...

But I can tell you a thing, that happened - about the Thoth:

I always had wanted to buy a Thoth - in the early days 70s and 80 last millennium... but always had a "funky feeling" in my tummy and put it back...

Then, years later

I was new on AT maaaaany years ago... and thought - well, I should learn it and about it - after all it is Tarot history and so on.

The next evening, I had to do a shamanic journey - for a family member... At the end of that journey however one of my most important Miahanits that helps me heal and gives healing advise, showed up wrathful and pissssed, feathers flying and tossed a deck of Thoth cards into my face hissing: "You can not have it both ways"

I almost ....... my pants!

I took it to mean, that was to leave this product and everything related to this "bad magic maker", this bag of fleas alone - or else! - I would chance, loosing my healing Guardian Spirit....

I did stay away and still do!

January 5, 2021

This is a really good topic. I like what everyone has to say. This is something I ~really~ put a lot of thought into as a content creator and teacher/mentor vs. being someone just reading tarot with my favorite decks for friends, family.

I would never jump on someone who came to this forum and said "The Wildwood deck is my favorite!" In fact, I wouldn't even opinionate on the author and controversy to that person unless that person said "Hey, so-and-so said my deck's author was a jackass, what do other people think?" I don't feel educated enough on the Wildwood/Greenwood situation to have an opinion at this time. I will probably do educate myself now though without further contributing to the topic itself in this thread.

For me personally, it is all about learning/teaching the past and seeing the ISM that is rampant in it all, acknowledging it and not creating new 2020+ content that reads like 1920 content or 1980 content or even 2000 content. But that doesn't mean I throw away classic tarot decks. It just means I give more modern decks that speak to my current ideology and beliefs equal+ time at the table and they are the ones I really advocate for when it comes to "I want something besides a classic RWS or Thoth- what should I buy?"

As simply an example of the range decks I use every week and not advocating buying any specific deck I'm about to mention?

I'm working with 5 decks right now and it will be 6 soon.

I can justify having my Universal Waite and Thoth and Hanson-Roberts decks sitting on the same table as my Pride Tarot A Collaborative Deck, New Era Elements Tarot, and Melanated Classic Tarot (when it gets here in a few days) and letting myself or students pick which of them they are in the mood for. No judgement at me or them on which of those six I/they are in mood for.

But from now on, (except for specific historical decks for studying specific historical traditions), the new decks I buy for personal work and teaching tarot with will be embracing of marginalized communities like the last three vs. the first three because that's important to me. I will slowly phase out my US Games Inc decks for author-created decks over the next few years.

The only time I'd step up to the plate and boycott/condemn a tarot reader or tarot author/artist is when they actively endorse hate or have been charged with criminal intent including financial exploitation and sexual assault. And I wouldn't do that HERE on this forum without the owner/moderators starting the topic themselves.

Being a member of the LGBTQIA+ community and protective of trans friends in particular, I do boycott certain products and people even when they aren't criminals. Right now, none of the people I boycott have published a tarot deck. That will change if/when someone's 2020+ hate hits my 2020+ attention. But I won't bring that HERE to this forum without the owner/moderators starting the topic themselves.

January 5, 2021

28 minutes ago, Mi-Shell said:

But I can tell you a thing, that happened - about the Thoth:

I always had wanted to buy a Thoth - in the early days 70s and 80 last millennium... but always had a "funky feeling" in my tummy and put it back...

Then, years later

I was new on AT maaaaany years ago... and thought - well, I should learn it and about it - after all it is Tarot history and so on.

The next evening, I had to do a shamanic journey - for a family member... At the end of that journey however one of my most important Miahanits that helps me heal and gives healing advise, showed up wrathful and pissssed, feathers flying and tossed a deck of Thoth cards into my face hissing: "You can not have it both ways"

I almost ....... my pants!

I took it to mean, that was to leave this product and everything related to this "bad magic maker", this bag of fleas alone - or else! - I would chance, loosing my healing Guardian Spirit....

I did stay away and still do!

I don't blame you. And I'm not saying that the Thoth is evil. A lot of people use it for decades with no ill effects.
It's just "not in your medicine". Some things are taboo for an individual personally.

26 minutes ago, TheLoracular said:

For me personally, it is all about learning/teaching the past and seeing the ISM that is rampant in it all, acknowledging it and not creating new 2020+ content that reads like 1920 content or 1980 content or even 2000 content.

I hate to say it, but the ISMs that used to be relegated to the fringes are in our faces again. We've gone all the way back to the 1920's and 1930's, with none of the charms of those decades.

Yes, the ugly stuff still existed, but it was marginalized, not accepted. We knew it was there, but we were optimistic. That's changed these last few years.

We have a lot of work to do.

26 minutes ago, TheLoracular said:

But that doesn't mean I throw away classic tarot decks. It just means I give more modern decks that speak to my current ideology and beliefs equal+ time at the table and they are the ones I really advocate for when it comes to "I want something besides a classic RWS or Thoth- what should I buy?"

I love old decks. Sure, everybody in them is white - but Tarot is a product of Christian Europe. If I use the Kuan Yin oracle sticks or the I Ching, likewise I'm going to see Asian people and/or an Asian perspective when I look things up. The same with Ifa or Loteria or anything else - everything comes from a place and a people. I think that with any system, it's important to immerse yourself in the roots of it.

And some decks try too hard. There was some discussion here over one that tried too hard to be all-inclusive and ended up getting it all wrong. It actually implied trans was a disability. It didn't mean to, but it was sloppily done and that was the takeaway.

But, that said, diverse decks are a GOOD thing. Just let them be done well.

26 minutes ago, TheLoracular said:

Being a member of the LGBTQIA+ community and protective of trans friends in particular, I do boycott certain products and people even when they aren't criminals. Right now, none of the people I boycott have published a tarot deck. That will change if/when someone's 2020+ hate hits my 2020+ attention. But I won't bring that HERE to this forum without the owner/moderators starting the topic themselves.

If/when that happens, I think it needs to be called out. It might escape the notice of the owner/mods, and I certainly think we need to be made aware of it.

January 5, 2021

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

I hate to say it, but the ISMs that used to be relegated to the fringes are in our faces again. We've gone all the way back to the 1920's and 1930's, with none of the charms of those decades.

We do seem to be going backwards, sadly. The levels of misogyny for example is scary (reading a book on it atm). But did it ever really go away, or are people more empowered to speak now because the internet lets like-minded people gather together.

On diverse decks, I just got the Light Seers and it's lovely. Looking through it, it feels natural rather than forced or to make a point - and I understand why the point needs to be made, it's just depressing that we're into the 2020's and we don't seem to have moved on...

Then there's if you find out something about an artist after, sometimes many years after, buying whatever. There's a composer, accused of "sexual misconduct". I wouldn't buy anything by him now, but how do I feel about listening to the music I already own? What about other media that uses his music, he was just one person amongst maybe dozens or more involved in its creation. We all have to decide where our line is.

January 6, 2021

A really interesting example of this is the Osho Zen Tarot Deck, a deck probably the most like an oracle of any tarot. I bought it before I knew the history and liked it. I found it good for readings and good for healing type topics. But Osho was an Indian mystic and controversial religious leader in the 60's. He started a religion and group in the U.S which was all about free love but it was a cult and some criminal acts took place. There is a documentary series about what went on called Wild Wild Country on Netflix. I have seen people talk on tarot forums and places about their personal experiences of his group in Oregon, so it's not just indirect history, people alive have experienced this group at a huge ranch there and causing chaos to the local area. The messages and philosophy of the cards are nice but it does not reflect what really went on with Osho and his group. Osho is still a brand today which makes millions a year and so people ignore the inconvenient parts of the story. In the deck there is an extra card to the 78 cards called The Master which is Osho himself. I have seen reviews and people talk about that that card creeps people out, it's not the intention but it does, some people leave it out in readings. I don't think I would pay money for it knowing about it now but I will use it and at least I acknowledge that there are problematic elements with it and the philosophy. Someone else designed the deck under the Osho brand and I am not sure if Osho himself had anything to do with it or even approved of tarot, who knows, he died a few years before it came out but the artist claims she consulted him in one old interview about it.

The interesting thing about this ethical dilemma is that it's not about the artwork, it's about the baggage we know about and aware of. They always say separate or judge the art not the artist but that isn't always easy. But I have been put off by some of the decks by the artists connected to Chesca by what happened to her to be honest and avoided those decks. I think it's possible to separate the two and enjoy the deck but it's a personal decision we have to work out. We all have a line, does the artist or baggage of a deck cross our ethical lines or not? It's important to be aware of everything about it anyway.

January 6, 2021

I think the creator and the artist (if they're two different people) both have a fairly significant influence on the deck. The imagery of the cards will obviously influence how a card can be interpreted, but it's important to remember that the creator is the one who decides what kind of imagery to put in the deck, as well as what the guidebook says, if there is one. It's important to recognize that different creators approach the Tarot in different ways, with some leaning more towards tying the cards into a theme, while others do their best to ensure the symbolism of the RWS or another deck tradition is front and center. But, all Tarot decks are ultimately the products of their creators and artists.

As for whether the person behind a deck influences what I think about it, I will say that I'm on the death of the author end of the spectrum when it comes to all sorts of things, and see no reason to approach something like Tarot any differently. At the end of the day, it's still a product created by someone, but what's important to me is the product, and not who made it. Some people are huge on respecting the creator's vision regardless, but for me, it's up to the creator to ensure that vision shines through in their work. I'll gladly respect it if I'm able to see things their way through what they're presenting to me. But, if I end up interpreting things differently, then that's the experience I have with their work no matter what anyone says.

In any case, death of the author also has the utility of distancing me from the kind of person the creator is and what that individual may have said or done. I don't frequent the social media feeds of people behind the various works I've consumed over the years, and I really don't have an interest in their personal lives. My relationship to them is purely as a consumer of one or more of their works. If someone says "so and so is actually a bad person because ____" that's hearsay to me, and that's usually how information about such an individual reaches me. I don't endorse any immoral comments or behaviour on their part, but it's not as though that in any way concerns someone like me. Now, if their works were to contain things I find offensive, that would be a different story, though in all likelihood, I wouldn't be a consumer of said works anyways, thus distancing me even more from them.

January 6, 2021

3 hours ago, ilweran said:

We do seem to be going backwards, sadly. The levels of misogyny for example is scary (reading a book on it atm). But did it ever really go away, or are people more empowered to speak now because the internet lets like-minded people gather together.

Definitely the latter. Between internet echo chambers, talk radio hosts softening the ground for hate by feeding the minds of unstable listeners a steady diet of white victimology and despair, "news" outlets that are actually lies and propaganda, and the approval and agreement they get from people in positions of power and authority, the ignorant and the evil have gotten too comfortable. There were neonazis marching in the street on D Day. My dad, a WWII vet, was a good natured, peaceful person - but he'd have been out there popping caps. A lot of his generation would - they knew never be docile in the face of fascism. How soon people forget.

We won't eradicate this in our lifetimes. But what we can do is drive it back under a rock. And every generation needs to do that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Quote

On diverse decks, I just got the Light Seers and it's lovely. Looking through it, it feels natural rather than forced or to make a point - and I understand why the point needs to be made, it's just depressing that we're into the 2020's and we don't seem to have moved on...

Depression is flat and despairing. Have some Bella Ciao. 😉

Quote

Then there's if you find out something about an artist after, sometimes many years after, buying whatever. There's a composer, accused of "sexual misconduct". I wouldn't buy anything by him now, but how do I feel about listening to the music I already own? What about other media that uses his music, he was just one person amongst maybe dozens or more involved in its creation. We all have to decide where our line is.

Yes. There should BE a line, but at this point in time, at least, it's not mutually agreed upon.

Edited January 6, 2021 by katrinka

January 6, 2021

Of course, then there's the very old idea that some images are more than representations but actually make present that which they represent. Christian icons being one example. Others believe that certain holy artworks, like Native American sand paintings, are spiritual beings in and of themselves, or that symbolic representations have powerful effects, drawing spirits or creating manipulatable microcosms of the world. Moebius, the comic book creator, felt that a sufficiently skilled artist could reorder the internal forces of the reader by use of visual rhythm, perspective, colour, etc. In fact, isn't the idea that symbols have literal supernatural effects the very cornerstone of occultism?

Anyway, not sure what my point is here, just throwing it out as another angle on the topic, one that hasn't really been touched on, except maybe by Mi-Shell.

Edited January 6, 2021 by devin

January 11, 2021

I find the intent of the deck creator(s) to be relevant to their efficacy with me personally.

I purchased the Rackham Oracle on Etsy. On the site it says: "Ingredients: Paper, Ink, Magick."

I have no doubt of the level of dedication put into the effort when I work this pack. Eerily accurate, sometimes

too bold and intense. But I appreciate the process.

This is just my condenced, simplified 2 cents.

January 11, 2021

I'm not tempted to buy that deck, but if I were, I wonder if I should be 'woke' and do a deep background check on Rackham, and should I do the same for Thorn at Duck Soup. It makes me tired to think about it.

I stand by my opinion that unless someone is shoving their personal lifestyle/opinions in my face (Rosanne Barr comes to mind for some reason) I don't care 2 cents for, or condemn the artist. I care about the product. If the product offends me, I'm not spending my dollars or time on it.

January 11, 2021

14 minutes ago, AJ-ish/Sharyn said:

I'm not tempted to buy that deck, but if I were, I wonder if I should be 'woke' and do a deep background check on Rackham, and should I do the same for Thorn at Duck Soup. It makes me tired to think about it.

I haven't researched Rackham, and he's dead, anyway.
But the Duck Soup guy sells a Golliwog deck. A lot of people have pointed out repeatedly that it's offensive, but he just digs his heels in and defends it.
If you're not familiar with what a "Golliwog" is, read this - but be warned, again, this stuff is offensive:
https://www.ferris.edu/jimcrow/golliwog/

So no. Duck Soup doesn't get my money.
(And I didn't do a "deep background check." This deck has been a bone of contention for YEARS, it's no secret.)

Edited January 11, 2021 by katrinka

January 11, 2021

11 hours ago, Wyrdkiss said:

I find the intent of the deck creator(s) to be relevant to their efficacy with me personally.

I purchased the Rackham Oracle on Etsy. On the site it says: "Ingredients: Paper, Ink, Magick."

I have no doubt of the level of dedication put into the effort when I work this pack. Eerily accurate, sometimes

too bold and intense. But I appreciate the process.

This is just my condenced, simplified 2 cents.

I totally understand what you are saying and I agree. I too value when there is a magical 'extra something' to a deck and the way it was produced.

January 11, 2021

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I totally understand what you are saying and I agree. I too value when there is a magical 'extra something' to a deck and the way it was produced.

Thank you for letting me know my perspective is not an isolated one Raggydoll.

My first purchased Deck, and main one used with clients is the Thoth. That is another example of an incredible amount of effort and thought invested in creation, which later affords a stunning connection

between deck and user.

January 11, 2021

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

But the Duck Soup guy sells a Golliwog deck. A lot of people have pointed out repeatedly that it's offensive, but he just digs his heels in and defends it.

That would be a hard line crossed for me.

I admit I have a residual fondness for gollys (which is what we called them, as I guess even in the early 80s the full name was recognised as offensive) as I had a cuddly toy and a Robertson's jam pin badge as a young child, but those are two things I've not passed on to my son for obvious reasons, and everyone knows what those reasons are. It's not obscure, or open to interpretation, or the result of cultural differences. There is no excuse for creating or selling that deck.

Back to the Wildwood - and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, I have a terrible headache atm so don't feel like checking - doesn't the deck show mainly or perhaps all white people? As well as in more than one card making female characters male, that seems disappointing considering the Greenwood was a more diverse deck (and becomes more so with the alt Lovers card and switching the courts to Chesca's original titles.)

January 11, 2021

I didn’t know about the Duck Soup deck. Good grief. I've got one of theirs, but there won't be any more.

January 11, 2021

Do you think a Tarot deck creator imprints or determines the potential of the deck?

This original question reminds me of my struggggggles recently with the 2 decks created by A.E. Stone, the Anieth Nature deck and the Stone Tarot.

the creator invented a whole new way of "Tarot" Atributes of the cards, how they are supposed to be read and why... It was convoluted and - weird and exiting to explore. The Ainieth deck has only Animals of Europe in the most beautiful accurate and natural rendition. It was based on the Celtic world as seen by the creator. I loved the art and worked with the deck.

HARD!

Finally, I left all the deck creators doctrines and instructions by the wayside and just read the cards - and it worked well 🙂

So well in fact, that I went ahead and ordered her second deck, also all Animals, but with an extra suit the one of Spirit.

But all the cards have difficult to remember ?? Gaelic names the way SHE decided they were supposed to be pronounced...

Even then I did not give up.....

But then, delving deeper and deeper into the realm of her thought and her fantasy world, I read, that she was heavily influenced by Robert Graves and his thinking about history and all things Celtic....

THAT did it! This all was based on someone's unfunded imaginary notions....... and I gave up

Today I still love the images and at times read with the Anieth deck but use plane old RWS meanings as a basis, my knowledge of the Animals in their natural environment and my intuition when doing so.

https://www.thetarotforum.com/forums/topic/7468-the-stone-nature-deck/?tab=comments#comment-108640

Do you think a Tarot deck creator imprints or determines the potential of the deck?

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