Pips/playing card insert theory

[Guest]

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

Since the Russian readers who use reversals tend to stop at some point, it sounds to me like they were experimenting. It's human nature to experiment. It also sounds to me like they eventually get to the point where they decide reversals don't work well. 

Based on correspondence and interaction, most using reversals often also employ techniques from “Etteilla”(adding up to 31) and L’Oracle Parfait (Master Method).  These were included in several 20th century Slavic texts. Two of my students had also learned to use the House and Stork as the Significators.

 

The French author Marie Delclos, and the Belgian psychic Vincent, do something similar. 
 

If they move away from this emphasis  it’s hard to carry the practice. 

 

In traditional cartomancy, stripped decks had defined upright and reversed meanings. Like Etteilla’s or the Petit Dames. These meanings did not always relate.

What I recommend reflecting on is if you are going to reverse the cards, what is the inverted significance? If the reversed Clouds is passing of trouble or clarity was is the upright Sun?
 

This is why I have always said there has to be a distinction between just using the cards, and the method. 

[katrinka]

Thanks, @gregory, but I didn't come up with it. The credit for that one goes to Andy, too. 

[gregory]

Whose-ever it was, it is SO apt.

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Based on correspondence and interaction, most using reversals often also employ techniques from “Etteilla”(adding up to 31) and L’Oracle Parfait (Master Method).  These were included in several 20th century Slavic texts. Two of my students had also learned to use the House and Stork as the Significators.

It sounds like there may have been a dearth of information there at one time, so they used what they had.
Kind of like hammering nails with a rock, lol. 

 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

What I recommend reflecting on is if you are going to reverse the cards, what is the inverted significance? If the reversed Clouds is passing of trouble or clarity was is the upright Sun?

Yes, and if you reverse the Dog, what do you do with the Snake? 
And so forth. One issue after another.

 

[katrinka]

On 3/18/2021 at 12:15 PM, timtoldrum said:

Yes. If you look at the hands of anaemics, you will often note very pale nails and cold skin. Someone with eye trouble will often have marks (xxx or blurry loops) under the fourth finger on the mount people call the Sun. 

 

I've never made a study of this, but people with heart problems and/or bad circulation will often have odd looking nails, sometimes flattened or discolored. 
It really needs to be studied outside the realm of woo, if it hasn't been already - there's some observable science there. 

Edited March 19, 2021 by katrinka

[katrinka]

On 3/18/2021 at 12:39 PM, timtoldrum said:

On reflection I would suspect a lot of her clients were housewives. But I cannot see her never having read for a working woman at least by the 1960s. 

And there is WWII to consider. A lot of women were out grubbing for a paycheck!

[HOLMES]

14 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

"Evolve"? 
It sounds like you're implying that Lenormand readers are unevolved and closed-minded because the overwhelming majority of us don't like reversals. 
But the reason we don't like them is that they don't work well in Lenormand.

 

Lenormand works beautifully if you follow the system. Yesterday I was thinking about filing my taxes, but I was worried that I might owe money. I did a quick pull and got Sun - Anchor - Lady. So I did my taxes and I apparently have a nice return coming. I can rely on Lenormand. It gives me unambiguous answers in most cases. But I have learned to follow the method. 

 

Since the Russian readers who use reversals tend to stop at some point, it sounds to me like they were experimenting. It's human nature to experiment. It also sounds to me like they eventually get to the point where they decide reversals don't work well. 

Lenormand isn't really the deck, it's the method. And it's a genius method, and yes, a lot of us are protective of it. It will work if you humble yourself and learn it rather than trying to meddle with it. 

I am typing this now, and people will be able to read and understand it, because there are rules and conventions regarding spelling and language. But maybe I should "evolve" and just do this?: jowiu t[aowtvymapit;mapc;prm;.ahzyrui lig hklgiufytdshdtkj'ppi

 

Everything evolves

Look at how the tarot has since the publication of waite deck. 

Especially as more information is shared globally. 

 

For me they have worked so out of the millions on the planet i won't be be the only one in the years to come try reversals and find they work. 

 

The last example given seems to be devolving 

[HOLMES]

13 hours ago, le_charior said:

On the one hand I really enjoy the strong opinions on the Lenormand here, on the other hand I personally think there is a middle ground, between protecting tradition and being open to changes. Me, personally, I am approaching this new system with the idea of "you have to know the rules to break the rules" - not saying i want to break them, but maybe question or evolve them. And i think everybody's way of learning is different - some might learn from books and traditional ways, some might experiment on their own and see what works for them. 

 

Aaaaanyway, back on topic! 

 

I find it fascinating how the Ur-Lenormand, the Game of Hope cards have two playing card inserts, with German suits (Green Leaves, Red Hearts, Bells and Acorns) and their equivalent in the French suits (clubs , diamonds , hearts  and spades ) :

 

 

(Source of the image: https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/P_1896-0501-495)

 

To me the German or Bavarian cards, as I know them, with minors from 6 - 10, are very familiar as I mentioned already from a card game called Schafkopf that I grew up with and still play with my nieces and nephews today - it seems people are also using these card for divination purposes (A german language site on the topic: https://www.zenomlive.com/lexikon/schafkopfkarten/) They equate

Acorn = Clubs (negative - betrayal, falsehood, unfaithful, anger, grief)

Bells = Diamonds (positive - fortunate, especially financially)

Leaves = Spades (good news and hope)

Hearts = Hearts (positive - love, happiness, good times) 

 

and give some basic meanings that I added in a quick translation. Not sure where this tradition comes from of course. Funnily they have positive meanings for three colours and only the poor Clubs get all the negativity 🙂 

 

Mary K. Greer also writes about this, and compares very interesting cards on her blog, already from 2013: https://marykgreer.com/2013/10/04/lenormand-playing-card-inserts-possible-sources/ 

 

I'll look more into this later for sure. Still wrapping my head around the first level of reading Lenormand, so for the moment I am not so concerned with the playing cards, but I really like it and would not go for a deck that does not have this second layer of meaning. 

 

Thanks for that,  i never really got the pips on the left to you explained it. 

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I've never made a study of this, but people with heart problems and/or bad circulation will often have odd looking nails, sometimes flattened or discolored. 
It really needs to be studied outside the realm of woo, if it hasn't been already - there's some observable science there. 

Definitely. Of course there is a bit more than what has been mentioned here, but there is a consistency that warrants investigation. And we know a lot of health is genetics.  

 

25 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And there is WWII to consider. A lot of women were out grubbing for a paycheck!

Definitely. I often think about them when I spread the TL Tarot. 

[katrinka]

28 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

The last example given seems to be devolving 

 

Exactly. Now think about that. Take as long as you need.

By typing random characters on the keyboad and ignoring rules and conventions of spelling, language, etc., I've managed to communicate nothing. 
Lenormand will communicate clearly if you learn the method. 
Anything less is gjiwoa'ouh'i;urhtg.l.ea;

 

28 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Everything evolves

 

Not necessarily. 
 

Quote

Look at how the tarot has since the publication of waite deck. 

 

The Waite deck helped popularize the Tarot. That's something quite different from evolution.
Popularity does not automatically equal quality. One has only to look at music to see that.

Waite hired PCS to illustrate the Minors. Illustrated Minors already existed, though. 
He added interpretations according to Golden Dawn correspondences (which he fudged.)
And people were doing occult correspondences before Waite. 

It's a familiar and well loved deck, but nothing groundbreaking. 

 

Quote

For me they have worked so out of the millions on the planet i won't be be the only one in the years to come try reversals and find they work. 

 

Your cards, your decision. But they don't work well, for reasons stated earlier.

[katrinka]

28 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Definitely. I often think about them when I spread the TL Tarot. 

So do I. 
This is OT, but I have to share it. Things were tougher then than a lot of us realize, and this is just the day to day stuff, not the real horrors. I think people who consulted cards would have done so a lot.
 

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

5 hours ago, katrinka said:

It sounds like there may have been a dearth of information there at one time, so they used what they had.
Kind of like hammering nails with a rock, lol. 

The PL sheet was translated into Slavic. I’ve seen a Russian version. But as far as I am aware, they were much like the rest of Europe. There were, however, books that presented the “methods” of Etteilla and Mlle Lenormand.  So it was accepted and run with. 

 

6 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes, and if you reverse the Dog, what do you do with the Snake? 
And so forth. One issue after another.

Yes. Some stripped decks do not have the necessary variety.  

[gregory]

Look, Holmes - do your own thing by all means. But don't expect others to see it as LeNormand.

 

Andy and katrinka really know their stuff. You'd do well to learn from them rather than strike out on your own. Listening to them could make you into a good LeNormand reader. And in any event, as le_charior said:

 

15 hours ago, le_charior said:

"you have to know the rules to break the rules"

 

You don't know them well enough even to think about breaking them. Nor do I - so I shall work with katrinka and learn them - and would not think of offering readings within the system until I have done so - if ever.

Edited March 19, 2021 by gregory
My PC seems to have developed predictive text - and cannot predict right.

[Guest]

I hadn't stop to read all the thread before. Now I did. And I couldn't agree more with @katrinka about the so-called "evolution" of Tarot. And @le_charior has a point: we need to learn (and thus, becoming a 'scholar' in) a topic to even try to experiment on broadening its scopes. 

 

Lenormand is enticing and engaging because it is pragmatic and orderly. Let's keep it this way.

 

Thank you @timtoldrum for the compelling teachings on the suits. They make a lot of sense!