I'm getting a VERY wonky Lenormand, a Beatles/Yellow Submarine one

[katrinka]

...and I don't recommend this one for beginners 
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/welkin/the-beatles-tarot-revised-and-the-beatles-lenormand

I passed on the Tarot - yet another collagey thing - but that Yellow Submarine Lenormand just grabbed me. 

My childhood years were Beatles years. (And while I'm technically one of those much-reviled Boomers, I didn't have the Boomer experience of a 50's childhood, protesting the Vietnam war, running off to San Francisco or going to Woodstock - my contemporaries were the Runaways....that feeling of seeing a photo and thinking "Me AF!" FINALLY somebody was representing US.)

 

But I grew up with the Beatles, from Kindergarten through sixth grade. They were a refuge from school, from adults and conservatism and the humiliation of the President's Council On Physical Fitness. (Basically "Hello class! Today you're going to take turns trying to jump over a chest-high bar, even though it never even occurred to you that people would try to do such things." A fresh humiliation every day.) I had a fourth grade teacher who switched my legs so hard that they were bloody - because she caught me not paying attention in her stupid repetitive class. I had a sixth grade teacher who was also a principal, who decided for some unknown reason that I was the scum of the earth, and the feeling was mutual and I let him know. Elementary school was a war zone. People think being a kid is easy, but it's actually pretty horrible. People are constantly deciding what you should be doing and when, you have no agency. But I could go home to Beatle World, and I think it kept me sane. At least I got through all that without killing anybody.

And then - POOF - I was in junior high, and suddenly I was cool and everybody decided I was awesome. OK, I'll take it - but WTF? I'm the same person I was last year...

Strange times. But the Beatles are a fond memory and I'll try this deck, even if it's not much of a reader. 



 

[HOLMES]

It looks good to me! 

We all have our loves,i look forward to hearing how they read.

[gregory]

That creator (Chris) is EXCELLENT and knows his stuff. I have many of his tarot's (well, three...) His not at all L-WB's are thorough and then some.

 

https://www.welkintarot.com The Gnostic is AMAZING.

Edited March 24, 2021 by gregory

[Guest]

This deck is striking and it is clear that a lot of work has gone into it as the iconography is consistent.   But I don’t think I will invest. 
 

We’re all entitled to a wonky deck or two! One of my favourites (Nieuwe Lenormand) has dolphins on the Fishes card and without spectacles I sometimes find it hard to make out Serpent’s head. 

 

 

[katrinka]

Those look lovely, @gregory. I'm not sure that they're reading decks for me, but I like the look of them. 
Dickens looks very hungover in that photo, lol. I suppose his focus on poverty and child labor would drive a person to drink at times. But I'm glad he brought all that to peoples' awareness. I don't read him much, but he was a Good Egg.

 

@HOLMES I'll let you know. But as you're aware, I view this Lenormand thing somewhat differently than you do.

 

 

[katrinka]

@timtoldrum Nor would I expect you (or anyone) to invest. The deck caught me for the personal reasons I mentioned, I wouldn't expect anyone else to have the same associations! It's totally due to my personal grid that I view things through, if that makes any sense. Most things are more objective ("This is a good deck because...") This is not so rational. 😀 And as you know, it's an important distinction to make when writing about these things. 

 

The Nieuwe Lenormand sounded familiar so I googled and it's Ciro's - a lot of people love that one, it's beautiful - and pretty wonky, lol. I've been tempted by it more than a time or two. I have several wonky ones, including my beloved Black Hand (I just love the style of it).Everything else is a repro of an old deck, and while there may be an aberrant card or two, they're correct for the most part. It's only in recent years that people have been getting it all wrong. 

I'm not sure what to make of that.

[Guest]

 

@katrinka Of course. It was thought provoking to read the personal connection you made. That should never be passed up. I did genuinely consider backing it. The Heart card really did standout. It could so easily go wrong. 
 

The Nieuwe Lenormand is Erna Droesbeke’s Lenormand deck. It uses the playing cards from her earlier playing card deck. Both are out of print I think. I lost my first copy in Egypt but go a second from AT.  You can see some of the cards here: https://www.joskes-winkel.nl/product/madame-lenormand-madame-lenormand-oude-kaarten-nieuw-jasje/

 

It is a nice set. But has its “wonkiness.”

[le_charior]

28 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Both are out of print I think

From the link you sent, @timtoldrum, it looks as if this is available in the Netherlands, they say they have 5 on stock. Now I am tempted to order one, or them all! 😋

[katrinka]

29 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

 

@katrinka Of course. It was thought provoking to read the personal connection you made. That should never be passed up. I did genuinely consider backing it. The Heart card really did standout. It could so easily go wrong. 
 

The Nieuwe Lenormand is Erna Droesbeke’s Lenormand deck. It uses the playing cards from her earlier playing card deck. Both are out of print I think. I lost my first copy in Egypt but go a second from AT.  You can see some of the cards here: https://www.joskes-winkel.nl/product/madame-lenormand-madame-lenormand-oude-kaarten-nieuw-jasje/

 

It is a nice set. But has its “wonkiness.”

 

Ah, Erna's!

I remember frantically searching for all things Erna back when I started - alas, her english book was OOP and the deck must not have been available, even then. 
I did correspond with a lady in Belgium who took Erma's course and actually met with her. She shared a lot of it, but as I recall, it wasn't All That.
Not casting aspersions on Erna, just saying that I can see how the deck might be somewhat wonky. 😉

[Guest]

Just now, le_charior said:

From the link you sent, @timtoldrum, it looks as if this is available in the Netherlands, they say they have 5 on stock. Now I am tempted to order one, or them all! 😋

I thought it was OOP.  It is very nice; and I would not hesitate to recommend it. Erna Droesbeke has a distinctive art-style, and the cards are well done. The colours are vibrant which some people didn’t like.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Ah, Erna's!

I remember frantically searching for all things Erna back when I started - alas, her english book was OOP and the deck must not have been available, even then. 
I did correspond with a lady in Belgium who took Erma's course and actually met with her. She shared a lot of it, but as I recall, it wasn't All That.
Not casting aspersions on Erna, just saying that I can see how the deck might be somewhat wonky. 😉

Going on memory, the English translation went out of print c. 2003*.  The French is also out of print. For some reason, the German translation has been reissued twice. Obviously, the Dutch is still available.
 

Erna Droesbeke does divide opinion. I cannot comment on her latter stuff which I am told is more “innovative.” Purely judged on the  Oracle of Mlle Lenormand, her meanings were close enough to what I had learned. I primarily focused on the spreads (3 x 3 and the past, present and future full-board).

 

*In 1987, Erna published the Kaartleggen met Mlle Lenormand. It was illustrated with the Brepols.  Outside of German that was the first full-length work on the Petit Lenormand.   In 1989, translations were issued in French, German and English. It came in a horrible plastic box (like a VHS) and included the book and a set of Blaue Eule cards that were used to illustrate the translation. 
 

Edited to add:

 

These are my cards. They are copyright 1992. They came with a fold out LWB. I cannot read Dutch but they are clearly from her 1987 text. It has the Method of the Cross and Cross of Destiny (PPF full-board).

Edited March 24, 2021 by Guest
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[katrinka]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

The Heart card really did standout. It could so easily go wrong. 

I do like that one. And the Key. The line "Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey" is a reference to the Maharishi having covert girlfriends. So yeah - a big Key moment, that certainty that he's just a guy, after all. 

It seems well thought out. I don't know how it will work in practice, but I'm intrigued enough to take that chance.

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Going on memory, the English translation went out of print c. 2003*.  The French is also out of print. For some reason, the German translation has been reissued twice. Obviously, the Dutch is still available.
 

Erna Droesbeke does divide opinion. I cannot comment on her latter stuff which I am told is more “innovative.” Purely judged on the  Oracle of Mlle Lenormand, her meanings were close enough to what I had learned. I primarily focused on the spreads (3 x 3 and the past, present and future full-board).

 

*In 1987, Erna published the Kaartleggen met Mlle Lenormand. It was illustrated with the Brepols.  Outside of German that was the first full-length work on the Petit Lenormand.   In 1989, translations were issued in French, German and English. It came in a horrible plastic box (like a VHS) and included the book and a set of Blaue Eule cards that were used to illustrate the translation. 

 

Yes, that's the one I used to look for! And even if the english version was still in print then, it was very difficult to find for some reason. I never managed to get a copy.
Looking back, that's OK. I've managed to muddle through just fine without it. But back then it felt like life or death, lol.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I do like that one. And the Key. The line "Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey" is a reference to the Maharishi having covert girlfriends. So yeah - a big Key moment, that certainty that he's just a guy, after all. 

It seems well thought out. I don't know how it will work in practice, but I'm intrigued enough to take that chance.

That is the attention to detail I admire. If someone puts in the care and attention I have no qualms about wonky.

 

4 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

Yes, that's the one I used to look for! And even if the english version was still in print then, it was very difficult to find for some reason. I never managed to get a copy.
Looking back, that's OK. I've managed to muddle through just fine without it. But back then it felt like life or death, lol.

 

It comes up from time to time but for an overinflated price ($100+). It was good but not that good. Erna gave quite basic significations - traditional and modern. All in less than 400 words. 
 

If there is interest I can do an Erna GT. The method of the cross and cross of destiny do work well. 

[katrinka]

2 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

That is the attention to detail I admire. If someone puts in the care and attention I have no qualms about wonky.

 

That sums it up perfectly.
 

2 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

It comes up from time to time but for an overinflated price ($100+). It was good but not that good. Erna gave quite basic significations - traditional and modern. All in less than 400 words. 

 

Yes. Not THAT good. 
The lady in Belgium was quoting some very basic stuff. Of course it was the beginner's course, but it still seemed really simplified. Maybe too much so.
 

2 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

If there is interest I can do an Erna GT. The method of the cross and cross of destiny do work well. 

I wouldn't mind seeing that, if you have time! 
I'm sure Erna had some worthwhile things to say. It's just that I never saw much of her material beyond card meanings and small  spreads.

[katrinka]

That Stars card..."I know this love of mine will never die."
Maybe it will, though. Or maybe not, time will tell.
It's an aspirational lyric, very Stars. 
 

 

[katrinka]

It does strike me as having a lot more thought put into it than simply "Oh, there's a lyric with stars in it, I'll slap that on the Stars card."
Or I might be reading too much into it. 
I guess I'll find out. 

The Beatles had an oversized slice of the human condition - postwar Liverpool to the rough clubs of Hamburg to a truly bizarre level of fame and fortune, complete with being completely misinterpreted, as in Manson, the "Paul Is Dead!" rumors, etc. And they were/are intelligent and talented and profoundly human, so their view makes for a potentially great Lenormand. How well the deck creator has captured that remains to be seen. In any case I give him credit for trying.

Edited March 24, 2021 by katrinka

[Guest]

16 hours ago, katrinka said:

Yes. Not THAT good. 
The lady in Belgium was quoting some very basic stuff. Of course it was the beginner's course, but it still seemed really simplified. Maybe too much so.

Erna did give quite elementary significations. During the latter sections these were fleshed out. For example she gave significations for certain cards in love. These did come from the playing cards.  She identified Clubs as the loyalty of partners.  For example, the Tree was a marriage or new relationship for a single woman. I remember the Paths was a foreign or possessive woman.

16 hours ago, katrinka said:

I wouldn't mind seeing that, if you have time! 
I'm sure Erna had some worthwhile things to say. It's just that I never saw much of her material beyond card meanings and small  spreads.

I will get a thread up. I’ve been thinking that we could do with a general question thread and some study groups. 

[Guest]

15 hours ago, katrinka said:

It does strike me as having a lot more thought put into it than simply "Oh, there's a lyric with stars in it, I'll slap that on the Stars card."
Or I might be reading too much into it. 
I guess I'll find out. 

The Beatles had an oversized slice of the human condition - postwar Liverpool to the rough clubs of Hamburg to a truly bizarre level of fame and fortune, complete with being completely misinterpreted, as in Manson, the "Paul Is Dead!" rumors, etc. And they were/are intelligent and talented and profoundly human, so their view makes for a potentially great Lenormand. How well the deck creator has captured that remains to be seen. In any case I give him credit for trying.

No, it does show some thought. I look forward to seeing more. 
 

In August, we have a Beatle week in Liverpool.  There are lots of events — you can just for a day, et cetera. But they have an amazing and rich legacy.