Andy B/timtoldrum Lenormand Q&A

[HOLMES]

ok, i had permisson to start a thread after requests from some for timtoldrum  to answers some questions I pmed him. 

since the questions were asked in the other thread,  To bring the attention to the answers themselves from the other thread..and also to pave the way for more questions and answers if he is so inclined it was suggested to me that this was the best way to go about it.  so I have taken his answers from the other thread and grouped them up into sections. 

 

his reply was 

I’m happy for such a thread. But I am but one reader. 

 

andy b. on the aunt,  and history of how he learned. 

 

Can I just clarify that my interest in and knowledge of the suits’ signification are independent of my Aunt. She had no interest. Her method was very lean. 
 

I first became interested in the suits upon acquiring Mary Marco and Jeanine Goffinet’s book. I started to note multiples and suit dominance. Over time, I became aware that trèfle was referred to kreuz in German.  My French mentor likened it to “carrying your cross.” 
 

At the time of writing my book, we knew of the existence of the Das Spiel der Hoffnung (A Wicked Pack of Cards).  That carried carried the German suits and the Alsace-French equivalent.  When writing the book, I researched the (German or Alemannic) pattern in greater detail. I focused on Central and Eastern European sources (Caitlín focused on Dutch sources).

 

The former were and are common to Austria, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary and Romania.   These are used for Schafkopf, Jass and Septica. Like many systems, these use a reduced deck of 32 or 36 cards. Due to time spent in the latter regions, I was familiar with the pattern but not schooled in it.
 

Acorns or crosses are associated with winter, hardship and toil. The acorn was associated with serfdom, too. Hence pictures such as the Cross, the Mice, the Birch Rod and the Fox.  

 

Leaves, never seen as or referred to as piques or spades, are symbols of the autumn harvest, growth and society vis-à-vis the Flowers, the Park and the Lilies cards.

 

Cards in Hungary, Romania, Croatia often show seasons on the deuces (there are no aces): Hearts are spring, Bells are Summer, Leaves are autumn and Acorns are winter. 

The Bavarian pattern predates tarot between ten and fifteen years. 

On an aside the 10 was associated with voyages, a tradition preserved and transferred to English cartomancy in the writings of Minetta and even Cecily Kent. This of course differs to the Hermetic root interpretation of the 10 of Sworrds.

 

andy b

 

i didn't know at the time timtoldrum was andy b. so i asked who was his aunt. , and at the time I thought caitlin matthews book pip was more defined to which he posted. 

 

I am the author of Lenormand: Thirty Six Cards (I’m andy).  My Aunt’s name was Elisa.  
 

The first draft of my book did contain more information on the pips. My editors cut 40% of the book. In particular it had a chart that showed suit combinations, such as Clubs (majority) with Hearts indicate problems in relationships and day-to-day problems building up.  That was cut as it was available in my free courses. 
 

In the Petit Lenormand the 10 of Spades’ meaning is travel. The 10 of Spades is the Boat. They have one meaning.  The reason I singled out that card is it is often the one people cite when arguing that the suits contradict the cards’ meanings. But in several Cartomancy systems, the 10 of Spades signifies voyages and water.  

 

However, like all stripped deck systems, you can note the suit predominance.  Lots of spades in a Lenormand reading indicate issues around socialising, growth and so on. It is also the suit of the maternal line in the family.  

I appreciate you saying a baton is a wand. But you must understand that the Lenormand trèfle/club is not a wand or fire. Of course, if you wish to see it that way you can. But if you look through the cards (ring, cross, mice, mountain, fox, bear, birch rod, serpent and clouds) you should see they are quite different in essence to the GD wands.

 

i did ask if he planned to write another book 

 

"

Caitlín Matthews had similar experiences.   When editors go over manuscripts, they identify" unnecessary "information and where they feel a" disconnect." For example, there were three additional spreads, but two (the couples' spread and cross of five) were thought to be too positional.  In the appendix, I had a different GT read exactly how my Aunt did it.  The editor felt that it created a disconnect between the section she called titled the traditional GT (I called it all future/big picture) and how Aunt Elisa read.  

 

It was frustrating. It influenced my decision not to publish a second book. 

 

and further info on being influenced by his aunt. 

 

"Yes. And it was not formal lessons. She put a card down and moved it around. She saw cards as quite specific situations. '

and furthermore "only my Aunt Elisa used the Petit Lenormand. She later came to live with us, and she showed me how to read them. I do not who taught her but she was illiterate so must have learned off another reader."

 

 

Indeed. When I was writing my book I did speak to some family members and I believe she learned during the thirties. 
 

Her view on the cards were a mix. The Moon was the husband’s standing and circumstances.  If near the Clouds or Coffin, he might see his status reduced. The Hound was someone in service to you (cleaner and so on) rather than a friend.  Essentially, she saw each card as a situation rather than an archetype or even symbol. She never read the Birds as a trip.
 

How she read was to shuffle and deal out a 8 x 4 + 4.  She found the Lady, and then looked underneath it for a main card (which was the House, the Ring, the Tree, the Clouds, the Fishes). Whatever was closest she read the cards around it and went round like that. She also counted but if she got to the end of line she went to the card beneath it:

 

01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 

09 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

 

So instead of going from card 8 to 9, she would to card 16 and then 15 and so on. If the Lady was in the last row, she classed that as being “out.” It would mean ignoring her and she read the tableau as being wholly about others and not pertaining next to her seeker.  

 

on his aunt cutting to the chase

She was not someone you would get an essay out of.
 

I should have got a Dondorf but the Russian was to hand. This is also not a real reading.  
 

If she was reading this, she would likely start with either the Heart or the Tree.

With the latter she would that moving or convalescing in warmer climes would result in a significant improvement to the Lady’s health (Tree, Stork and Heart).  Then see would find the High Tower to flesh that out. 

The count would go Boat,

Book, Cavalier, et cetera. She read the count much as people do surprises. 

 

[HOLMES]

on reversals being used in the lenormand,

 

In Russia and Ukraine reversals are not unheard of. Going on memory, I think the late Naina Vladimirova used them. She had one of the old English-language Blaue Eules with Mr. Kaplan’s verses.

on my reply it is cool to use reversals 

 

If you want to use reversals that is a personal choice. I would stress that it is still not common practice — even in Russia — and quite a few users seem to stop. In addition, it’s often employed in conjunction to other cartomancy systems, such as the master method and some of Etteilla’s draws. 

 

on katrinka comment about how those who experimented with reversals decided reversals don't work out that well 

 

Based on correspondence and interaction, most using reversals often also employ techniques from “Etteilla”(adding up to 31) and L’Oracle Parfait (Master Method).  These were included in several 20th century Slavic texts. Two of my students had also learned to use the House and Stork as the Significators.

 

The French author Marie Delclos, and the Belgian psychic Vincent, do something similar. 
 

If they move away from this emphasis  it’s hard to carry the practice. 

 

In traditional cartomancy, stripped decks had defined upright and reversed meanings. Like Etteilla’s or the Petit Dames. These meanings did not always relate.

What I recommend reflecting on is if you are going to reverse the cards, what is the inverted significance? If the reversed Clouds is passing of trouble or clarity was is the upright Sun?
 

This is why I have always said there has to be a distinction between just using the cards, and the method. 

 

 

 Future courses being offered

 

Over time I have released most of the cut material. A lot is on the Petit Lenormand website. For some reason I cannot edit or save updates but there will be more stuff added.

 

The course mentioned in the book was a free course that ran on a forum. The courses I hope to run this year will be different (video). I cannot confirm dates (yet, I am awaiting a date for surgery) but think Autumn or Winter. I have thought of resurrecting the old course as it was geared to introductions — over 500 people completed it.

 

on gregory comment about "There's also Bezique, which developed from Piquet and has 64 cards - two packs with 32 each, both omitting cards 2-6."

 

Yes. Minetta refers to the 32-card deck as Bezique. Chad Goddall and the other card manufacturers used that name for the double pack cards favoured by cartomantes in the UK. 
 

There is a strong links between the preferred cartomancy card deck (32, 36, 48 and so on) and games played in regions.
 

We have no records from Hechtel and no one knows where he plucked the GoH from.  But in the game’s instructions, he notes the cards can also be used to play card-games and tell fortunes.

Either he or his partners had to be familiar with the common North European parlour traditions of the late eighteenth century. He also follows Etteilla, to some extent, with the Lord and Lady mirroring the Mars and Venus cards. 

 

on lenormand herself developing the lenormand

 

There were Petit Lenormands printed under other names: Madame Marrow.  Minetta did the Gipsy Bijou deck that doesn’t mention Lenormand. 
 

We do have to be careful with rejecting any connection with Mlle Lenormand.  Some of the earlier attributions mention a deck found in her possession.  Thus far no one has answered the question: why the Game of Hope.  If Hechtel published it in c. 1798, it was out of print for at least 40-years. It was an obscure and expensive publication. So why resurrect that deck?
 

We know Mlle Le Normand owned German cards.  In the grand jeu reading, she would use around five decks including German ones. 
 

Personally, I am inclined to think she either owned a GoH or there were further publications we do not know about. The inventories of her possessions are lost and some of her property was sold (some burned too).  

[HOLMES]

here is a question for andy b.

@timtoldrum 

 

in caitlin matthews book there are the 4 paths of destiny which is the suits put into suits order of 6 to ace to make the four paths 

i mean i was going to do that anyways but now I have learned the lenromand developed from the german over the french tradition..

i wonder if it is a caitlin personal invention or has more value for it is comes from that german tradition somewhere. ? 

is this a common thing in your studies.. 

 

 

[Guest]

Hello @HOLMES

 

As part of Caitlín Matthews’ research for the book, she studied several classic texts on cartomancy, including Etteilla and other French texts. The four paths arose from those studies.
 

I do not use the concept. Instead I prefer to divide the deck into suits with the aces in the centre. Then you can see the thematic links:

 

Hearts are comprised of cards primarily associated with day-to-day concerns: home (house, stork), entourage (hound), health (tree), status (moon), et cetera. Spades focus on growth (high tower, child), social activities (park) and so on.

 

Once these links are made, you can use suit emphasis (Caitlín uses the term suit blending if I remember correctly). So a combination of clubs and diamonds would indicate financial challenges. The severity would be judged from whether clubs outweigh diamonds and by how much. 
 

On an aside I think it would be good to have a general Q&A that the other PL readers can chime in. I’m but one reader 🙂 

 

 

[HOLMES]

Thanks that is amazing visual, and explains a lot, i had read on cafe lenormand site that caitlin had made up the lenormand universe section and i thought, maybe she didn't, just the cafe author didn't have access to knowledge due to the language barrier, or background.

 

I do have one question, i notice in your visual the sixs start in the south west.. like the elemental minors do in the decanates of the tarot.

So what is significance of the sixes starting there. 

 

Thanks so much. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, HOLMES said:

Thanks that is amazing visual, and explains a lot, i had read on cafe lenormand site that caitlin had made up the lenormand universe section and i thought, maybe she didn't, just the cafe author didn't have access to knowledge due to the language barrier, or background.

 

I do have one question, i notice in your visual the sixs start in the south west.. like the elemental minors do in the decanates of the tarot.

So what is significance of the sixes starting there. 

 

Thanks so much. 

You are more than welcome, Holmes.
 

There is no reason behind the layout; I just prefer it. I start with the king and move anti-clockwise.  Contrary to popular belief there is no agreement on the cardinal directions and the Petit Lenormand. The majority of readers agree that the Stars are north (the great nowl or pole star) and the Sun is south.  East and West is anyone’s guess.  
 

In a GT, you can use the House card with the cards above being north and those to the left west, and so on.  I’m not too sure who originated that but I have seen French, Dutch and German readers do it. 

 

I remember Café Lenormand’s review but it is incorrect to state that it is made up. Caitlín did several years of research — so much so, she created an Etteilla correspondence course and she had a lot of info cut by the Enchanted’s publisher. 

 

Edited March 25, 2021 by Guest

[HOLMES]

I know in tarot we have intuitive readers to pyschic readers( which is for me means never did any study they simply lay the cards down and go) 

And i did read mary k greer blog on the  the differences readings approaches to lenormand 

 

So my true 2 questions are 

In your experience 

1. Have you ever gone by the picture and feeling over the established meaning.

2.has your reading style changed because of it, or was it the rare exception? 

Lets say you were just proficent in the grand tableu ak you were batman year one.. grand detective

Now you are grizzled batman, with years of solving the riddler and joker mysteries hidden in the gt

 

3. Or is Inuition a trap, that can lead a newbie lenorman reader astray?

I recall in barbara ann brennen hands of light where she saw the third eye guides but decided to focus on the crown over the psychic guides. 

 

I guess for years i used to just go by the meaning of the tarot without looking at the picture itself

So you might say i was too focused on the crown part and only later start to open up to the card image. 

 

Course that is more harder to do then if you just had a house for house so forth. 

But then again i did see older style lenormand cards with more scenary.. 

Like i forget which one but had a sort of building under the night moon.

 

Anyhow i would appreciate any insight you have on inuition vs lenormand system or do they flow together now for you like it is like you seeing a masterpiece  of paintings everytime you read. 

 

I guess what it boils down to is in your opnion do you tell your students to try to grow their intuition organically with their readings ? 

Yeah i suppose it depends on how open the student is to their inuition in the first place eh? 

@timtoldrum

[gregory]

4 hours ago, HOLMES said:

I know in tarot we have intuitive readers to pyschic readers( which is for me means never did any study they simply lay the cards down and go) 

 

Thank you for that. Holmes. I have probably studied more than most; I didn't even start to read tarot until I had studied for almost 30 years, and I am one of those intuitive readers. Do be more careful in your criticism of others. Fact is quite important.

 

I have not yet studied LeNormand anywhere nearly enough to use it to read, but I already know that intuition is not a significant part of the system. I have bought Andy's book, and I shan't even try to read the cards till I have read it thoroughly. This isn't a system that allows one just to dive in regardless. . I begin to gather you have read enough to know that it is, for you ?

Edited March 29, 2021 by gregory

[HOLMES]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

 

Thank you for that. Holmes. I have probably studied more than most; I didn't even start to read tarot until I had studied for almost 30 years, and I am one of those intuitive readers. Do be more careful in your criticism of others. Fact is quite important.

 

I have not yet studied LeNormand anywhere nearly enough to use it to read, but I already know that intuition is not a significant part of the system. I have bought Andy's book, and I shan't even try to read the cards till I have read it thoroughly. This isn't a system that allows one just to dive in regardless. . I begin to gather you have read enough to know that it is, for you ?

 

True it is a broad spectrum with really different degrees for people fall on many different path between the 2 in regards to inuitative and pure psychic.

 

Let me put that aside for a minute for there was one thing I am having articulating that occurred to me is the storytelling that some beginners do in the tarot. Now i think of it probably a lot of us started with the briefest outline reading for fun with friends

Perhaps it is the more pictorial approach then say inuitative

Hmm 

Perhaps it is the intent behind a beginner and a charlatan which i just looked up that describes a person who says they claims to have false knowledge . For a beginner with pure intention would most likely say they are just learning. 

 

That is one good thing about the forum, being a somewhat safe place to practice our craft and learn in doing so. 

 

So going back to the lenormand

The focus of the strip down easy lenormand book focus on sentences to help a person learn the lenormand reading ( other stuff too, just i don't have the book out to study so haven't read it in a while). 

Hmm i should share one thing i like about andy b book was the focus of building up to a 9 line. One big story or sentence. 

 

I think if i read your last line correctly ,you are asking if the system of lenormand is for me? 

 

I am looking at it as the long game.. 

I haven't attempted a gt yet for i want to be sure i am up to it.. 

Or sure the easy lenormand book built up to it by doing the gt in sections.. 

But if i stick with 9x4 i think that could work better for the lines then the piquet with section of 3x3 box as a starting point. 

I did some boxes before but for now thinking outside the box. Hehe

 

But going back to inuition and the system of lenormand.. i wonder andy.b if there were instances you wish you of mentioned this or that based on your flash of insight. 

I know there been an instance or 2 reading the tarot that hapoened. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, HOLMES said:

I know in tarot we have intuitive readers to pyschic readers( which is for me means never did any study they simply lay the cards down and go) 

And i did read mary k greer blog on the  the differences readings approaches to lenormand 

Good Afternoon, @HOLMES. That is a somewhat disingenuous generalisation. True there are some who misappropriate the term, but not all. 

 

9 hours ago, HOLMES said:

1. Have you ever gone by the picture and feeling over the established meaning.

In a traditional deck, the image and the established meaning are one.  All of the cards’ significations stem from their iconography.  
 

For example, the Moon card signifies fame and reputation.  The moonlight is but a reflection of the sun’s rays. The moon, therefore, cannot illuminate the entire heavens —  so some things fall under its spotlight (fame) whereas other objects remain in shadow (undistinguished).  If you look at the Brepols Lenormand, the Wüst or Blaue Eule you see a landscape where bits are dark and some are bathed in moonlight. If the Moon is far away, you’re in the dark.  Nearby, you stand out.  
 

The Anchor is associated with the harbours, beaches and jetties. Traditionally, it is shown on a beach. I read the Child — Birds as a pregnancy. Why? The traditional image of the Birds is nesting birds. Newer readers use the Stork. But the traditional image of the Stork is a single, wading stork eating a frog or newt.
 

I read with traditional decks and therefore see no contradiction. My intuition is what tells me the cards mean in a reading for that client.  I use some direction details to refine details. 
 

What I do not do is look at a card and say the first thing that comes to mind, or focus on one small details. Lenormand is about the whole image or emblem. 

9 hours ago, HOLMES said:

has your reading style changed because of it, or was it the rare exception? 

My reading style has evolved. So has @katrinka, Malkiel’s, and so on. If a reader states otherwise they’re not reading.

 

10 hours ago, HOLMES said:

3. Or is Inuition a trap, that can lead a newbie lenorman reader astray?

Intuition is the fruit of learning. You have to lay down the foundations and study. You will make a link with the cards.  That’s when the intuition comes in. 

[gregory]

Andy - would you agree with Mary Greer here: (I am making a serious effort, though I suspect these cards and I aren't likely to gel !)

 

Quote

Two things are essential to a Lenormand reading: 1) a set of cards containing the Lenormand numbers, names and/or pictures, and 2) learning the traditional Lenormand system. Certainly, a person can use Lenormand cards as oracles: making up their own meanings, projecting stories onto them, and reading the images as symbols, but that is not what is meant by a Lenormand reading. One can use any object or image for an oracle reading; Lenormand includes specific meanings and methods.

 

[Guest]

@gregory

More or less, yes.  On Aeclectic Tarot, I once said: There has to be a distinction between reading the Petit Lenormand [as a method]  and just using a [Petit Lenormand] deck.

 

But the method is not as rigid as some anglophones attest, e.g. the schools, card genders, et cetera.  That is not aimed at Mary. But there is too many generalisations made. Lenormand has a lot of folklore — the Serpent eats the Mice and the Stork the Serpent, stuff from old tales (serpent = Die weiße Schlange, Fox = Reynard, and the bear = Schneeweißchen und Rosenrot).  That’s just some.  The issue with the images comes from emphasis — Lenormand emphasis whole images not small symbols.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by Guest

[gregory]

Oh no - she goes on and expounds on what can be done by a good Lenormand reader once you know what you are doing (which I don't !) but as a starting point I felt it might be helpful to me (I know NOTHING yet !) Thank you.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, gregory said:

Oh no - she goes on and expounds on what can be done by a good Lenormand reader once you know what you are doing (which I don't !) but as a starting point I felt it might be helpful to me (I know NOTHING yet !) Thank you.

It is a long time since I had any interaction with Mary. But we’ve had mutual students (that took her webinars and so on). None of them showed any “wonkiness.” 🙂 

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Intuition is the fruit of learning. You have to lay down the foundations and study. You will make a link with the cards.  That’s when the intuition comes in. 

This.

I've said this before - after you've internalized the system and you've been reading awhile, intuition does come into play. It has to do with combinations much more than single cards - which interpretations to go with and how they might apply to your sitter. You don't think about it, you just do it. Like driving: if a kid runs in front of your car, you don't think "Now I am going to take my foot off the gas and step on the clutch and the brake" - it just happens instinctively. 

But a new driver hasn't developed that reflex yet. They have to consciously think about everything. And it's the same with Lenormand.

Edited March 29, 2021 by katrinka

[HOLMES]

I think as i read your answers that the lenormand is not a static thing with robotic combos but instead is a living thing. 

As i read your answer i recall the jesus christ 1977 movie where Nicodemus talks about how jesus in his teachings made the teachings become alive.

I am also remind in my favourite story of the blue adept  by piers antony where stile opponent was the perfect musician .. except his playing was wooden for  he was so focused on perfection he couldn't improvis. 

Meanwhile stile was all feeling. 

In their duet stile got the crowd moving and feeling.. so the musician in having to keep the music perfect had to improvise to keep the music going.. 

His improvising once unlocked blossomed like a waterfall once the dam was broken in his mind. 

Still they both stayed to the melody of ode to joy.. it was just the best version ever.. 

In the end stile won for he helped his partner the best.. 

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

I think as i read your answers that the lenormand is not a static thing with robotic combos but instead is a living thing. 

 

No. Like all real divination the Petit Lenormand is not static. It evolves over time and on its terms.
 

When the cards were published private communication between two people, who were not face to face, was done by letter. These days, telephone calls and Skype facilitate such communication. So the Letter can now signify a Skype chat.  The Cavalier rides a horse, which was the bike or car of the day.  The Cavalier is the card of cars.

 

Some writers claim to have modernised the system; but the cards do that themselves.  They reflect our world. If you are attuned to their voice you see the changes. But the link must be forged. It takes time. 
 

Combination lists are best read and then put aside. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I've said this before - after you've internalized the system and you've been reading awhile, intuition does come into play. It has to do with combinations much more than single cards - which interpretations to go with and how they might apply to your sitter. You don't think about it, you just do it. Like driving: if a kid runs in front of your car, you don't think "Now I am going to take my foot off the gas and step on the clutch and the brake" - it just happens instinctively. 

But a new driver hasn't developed that reflex yet. They have to consciously think about everything. And it's the same with Lenormand.

 Brilliantly said.