Theorical "how will sex go tonight"

[katrinka]

@HOLMES, those first three cards look like a chronic or repeating illness. Eep! 🤯

The cards may be a warning about an STD...

Edited May 1, 2021 by katrinka

[DownUnderNZer]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Ronia is Bulgarian. The translations themselves were also not from an original Russian source.  Generally, the late Naina Vladimirova is the most cited in Russian.  She did a DVD, too.  But the core significations are not too far from Ronia’s.  Reversals, 6 x 6 and the master method are all quite common in Russia. 
 

No one disputes that the cards have evolved. The Boat was never just a ship, even back in 1800.  But there is a difference between natural evolution and complete revision. 

No card at its core can be considered simply sex or work. A lily flower is not a picture of sex.  That is not an issue of complications, simplicity, archaic or modernisation.
 

It’s about the essential nature of the emblem.
 

If we say a card means sex, or that we must pick just one, we create an oversimplification. Things should never be simplified to the detriment of nuance.  But that is what happens.

 

I do not want this thread to descend into hostility. Most people can agree to disagree, and also adjust language to a more neutral stance e.g. Marco-influenced rather than French. It is an issue of respect.  
 

@katrinka

 

 

@timtoldrum

 

I like the term nuances and also the historical background as that is rather interesting.

 

I didn't venture much into Lenormand on AT until some time after Tarot, but do remember you contributed as well. As for Ronia, she wrote that under the heading  Russian Lenormand, but I don't know why if she was Bulgarian. Maybe she was just sharing how Russia understood it.

 

I was always taught to read the Lenormand like a story - so individual cards become pairs, combos and in turn a story.

 

I do believe that all 36 cards can pretty much tackle any type of question if one knows how to apply them to that question. 100%! Like if someone asked, and this is just off the top of my head, and quickly: What kind of kinkiness is X into? And the cards were Coffin and Whip I'd go with...can't actually write it but one word has 10 letters and starts with N and the other is something I'm not comfortable putting down either so won't (08)... plus quite rough/violent (11). If the question was: What does Y think or feel about Swingers? and got Crossroads and Storks then I probably wouldnt go with conflicted whatsoever, but rather that Y is into multi partners so therefore the idea of swinging plus going from one person to the next - no commitments.

 

So, I do believe that all 36 cards can answer a question if one knows how to apply them - the tricky part is knowing how to do it without going off on a totally different tangent or in a direction influenced by what a key or focus card might mean. E.g. Fox = Job.

 

 

DND 🌞

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

With that said, we have had some members feel like this section isn’t the most welcoming for beginners and that the dialogues can get too heated at times. It’s stuff that happens on forum, and like I said, we don’t see it as being the fault of individual members. We just like to turn things around as soon as possible. I’m convinced that you all understand and want the same thing

 

That is something that I am mindful of. I apologise for any sense of exclusion.

 

I do feel it is important to understand how language and generalisations can create barriers. 
 

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

I didn't venture much into Lenormand on AT until some time after Tarot, but do remember you contributed as well. As for Ronia, she wrote that under the heading  Russian Lenormand, but I don't know why if she was Bulgarian. Maybe she was just sharing how Russia understood it.

I can explain. I had asked Ronia if she knew of a source of Russian meanings. I wanted a good control list (like a lexicon) for comparison in research. . The meanings Ronia translated came from a Slavic forum.
 

Ronia translated Moony’s meanings and posted them as French. Moony is Belgian (Walloon), but is a student of Mary Marco.

 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

I was always taught to read the Lenormand like a story - so individual cards become pairs, combos and in turn a story.

 
That is how I read. 
 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

I do believe that all 36 cards can pretty much tackle any type of question if one knows how to apply them to that question. 100%! Like if someone asked, and this is just off the top of my head, and quickly: What kind of kinkiness is X into? And the cards were Coffin and Whip I'd go with...can't actually write it but one word has 10 letters and starts with N and the other is something I'm not comfortable putting down either so won't (08)... plus quite rough/violent (11). If the question was: What does Y think or feel about Swingers? and got Crossroads and Storks then I probably wouldnt go with conflicted whatsoever, but rather that Y is into multi partners so therefore the idea of swinging plus going from one person to the next - no commitments.

Yes. 
 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

So, I do believe that all 36 cards can answer a question if one knows how to apply them - the tricky part is knowing how to do it without going off on a totally different tangent or in a direction influenced by what a key or focus card might mean. E.g. Fox = Job.

That is the issue. In English, Marco’s work is best known through Rana and Sylvie Steinbach.  The latter uses the cartes maîtresses as a root tool, as the NLO requires key cards. But Marco did not.  In addition Steinbach does use some German concepts. But I do not really want to go down that path . 
 

[katrinka]

I just want to step in here and say that if @timtoldrum says something, you can bank on it.
His historical research is done properly, he differentiates between primary and secondary sources, etc. He makes inquiries, he cites sources. The reasoning behind the meanings he uses is sound. He's fluent in french and he can read german as well, so he has the advantage of being able to research source materials that would be difficult for a lot of us. So I defer to him. And if you know me, you know I question everything, but I've known Andy for some years now and he's never steered me wrong.

Carry on.
 

[Guest]

From my side of things, I like to know the convoluted story of how Lenormand got published in English language, just to know how "the Chinese Whisper" effect cascaded and what we need to do to find the original meanings. Thanks, @timtoldrum.

[Albadawn]

This discussion has been so enlightening. I didn’t know about any of this history, just that there were slightly different schools of thought in terms of card meanings and that it’s best for beginners to stick to one only until they get to grips with it. Thanks everyone, I’m much better informed!

[gregory]

58 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I just want to step in here and say that if @timtoldrum says something, you can bank on it.
His historical research is done properly, he differentiates between primary and secondary sources, etc. He makes inquiries, he cites sources. The reasoning behind the meanings he uses is sound. He's fluent in french and he can read german as well, so he has the advantage of being able to research source materials that would be difficult for a lot of us. So I defer to him. And if you know me, you know I question everything, but I've known Andy for some years now and he's never steered me wrong.

Carry on.
 

I couldn't agree more. He's particularly strong where others woffle to cover their lack of research. With him posting here, it's the first time I have woken to the possibility of getting the hang of Lenormand. Over the years I have become so confused by people posting information that made no sense - I can now see how much of that has been simply a total lack of knowledge. An acceptance of websites with misinformation, as well. I can pick out the tarot duds, but not the Lenormand ones, and that has REALLY not helped. Now I can just ask timtoldrum when I'm not sure ! I regard him as the ultimate authority available to me. Back to his most excellent book. (I tried Matthews. IT didn't take. I looked at Katz/Goodwin and that very much didn't take. I find Steinbach - difficult to get my head round - though that MIGHT just be me.)

[Guest]

Over time, I have considered starting both a resource thread (including non-English) and a thread on schools.  But I do not want to fan flames.

 

For disclosure, I did forget to add before: the valet de trèfle is Lancelot in French and Alsace decks. In classical cartomancie, he can be a suitor and fiancé. If we remember the 9 de trèfle (Fox) and 10 de trèfle (Bear) are often seen as work and work/money, respectively, it might explain the association. 
 

Edited May 1, 2021 by Guest

[HOLMES]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Over time, I have considered starting both a resource thread (including non-English) and a thread on schools.  But I do not want to fan flames.

 

For disclosure, I did forget to add before: the valet de trèfle is Lancelot in French and Alsace decks. In classical cartomancie, he can be a suitor and fiancé. If we remember the 9 de trèfle (Fox) and 10 de trèfle (Bear) are often seen as work and work/money, respectively, it might explain the association. 
 

 

We could use imo a sort of faq about "schools" myths vs style. 

And a tradition vs modernist approach simply so you don't have to keep repeating yourself to new people. 

As not a lot of people will do a search of all lenormand threads. 

Such a thread ultimately would serve to calm any flames.

 

With tarot i used to jump in for every same new question like reversals yes or no..should you use the cletic cross  

Finally unless i got lots of energy i wave my hand at the screen saying to my self let others handle.

 

After some thought and going with it being 2021 i just decided to accept that sex is one of the modern meanings assign to some cards .

But if it doesn't work in practice it doesnt . 

I personally won't know til i get a lot of readings down with the lenny.

 

I hope we can keep this theory going by some one else laying down a line of five. So we can discuss a differnt throw.

 

 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

If we remember the 9 de trèfle (Fox) and 10 de trèfle (Bear) are often seen as work and work/money, respectively, it might explain the association. 

Quite an investigative move, @timtoldrum. 

 

It's a very nice touch, because it explains a lot of why misperceptions took place.