Lenormand schools and other misconceptions debunked

[thirty6cards]

Thank you both so much, @gregory and @katrinka. I just got the Andy Boroveshengra book, the Phillipe Lenormand Sheet, a book recommended by Mary K. Greer - The Complete Lenormand Oracle Handbook: Reading the Language and Symbols of the Cards, and Lenormand Symbols: Exploring the Origins of the Images on the Cards. I love that we live in an age where books can be had instantaneously! I will also look at the course you referenced, katrinka.

Edited May 30, 2021 by RhubarbTart
hit eraser button - don't see a difference?

[gregory]

Ouch @RhubarbTart can you possibly edit and hit the "remove formatting button (looks like a little eraser) - that was hard to read

 

One to avoid is Katz and Goodwin. If you are buying everything - save your pennies ! It has a few "good" bits but a LOT of fluff. I decided to stick with the one book for now, and ask katrinka when I get stuck.

[katrinka]

Amen to that - I reviewed Katz and Goodwin back when it came out:
https://fennario.wordpress.com/2013/05/12/books-learning-lenormand/
 

[HOLMES]

I think one problem contributing to the idea of school is the difference inherent to how a reader will use the playing card inserts which is french vs german in the sense which one will be used. 

It is rana george who in her section of sticking to your system,first to me points out the difference calling it french/begian/dutch.  Calling the differences subtle which she says she uses the whip as sex, and i had no idea that would be deal. 

But even then she doesn't really deal with playing card insert. Neither does marcus katz, lisa sutton in her book which is new, or lozzy philips workbook. 

Lozzy says he sees them as a "design feature" 

So that is 4 books i have that doesn't look at the inserts.

 

So looked at alexandre book and his meanings for some of the cards were differnt then andy book. So before i came back i started to think i should study the playing cards insert, must be hidden meanings there.

 

Now months later, there may not be schools, i realize there is the french vs german system due to the playing card inserts depending on what style one learns. I waiting actually to see if any other system would be presented like imagine if some one said in canada since i live here (the diamonds were spades. And hearts was diamonds. )

But no it just seems for me it is just those differences mentioned. 

 

It doesn't seem to be a big deal in english for it would appear the playing cards are not being used in the newer books, and 2 older ones. 

Yet it is for it explains the differnce between older male in lilly and clouds depending on which system is used. 

 

 

[katrinka]

7 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

i realize there is the french vs german system due to the playing card inserts depending on what style one learns

Hi Holmes. 🙂

Those aren't systems, though. The French-suited insets retain their original meanings in Lenormand - that's why Clubs are trouble, etc. Nothing has changed.
It's just a different style of illustration.

 

10 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Lozzy says he sees them as a "design feature" 

That's because Lozzy is still new at this. He/she hasn't learned yet.

Rana is a very good reader, but she will tell you herself that she's not one to ask about card history, etc. For that you want Andy. Everybody who has looked into this in any detail knows there is no "french system" or "german system."
 

[thirty6cards]

36 minutes ago, gregory said:

Ouch @RhubarbTart can you possibly edit and hit the "remove formatting button (looks like a little eraser) - that was hard to read

I don't understand, but hit the eraser button. I know you're joking about something, but it's gone over my head. 

 

[thirty6cards]

37 minutes ago, gregory said:

One to avoid is Katz and Goodwin. If you are buying everything - save your pennies ! It has a few "good" bits but a LOT of fluff. I decided to stick with the one book for now, and ask katrinka when I get stuck.

Fortunately these books (except for one I'd already bought by Caitlyn Matthews) were free on Kindle. 

[thirty6cards]

@katrinka and @gregory I've decided to cast my lot with Boroveshengra and will start reading with only his "essence" definition of each card and expound upon those (by learning and incorporating his "progressed" meanings) when I have the essences of the cards down cold. To me this makes it approachable, expandable, and solid. I could prove myself wrong. Time will tell. I do appreciate the recommendations and help.

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, RhubarbTart said:

 

I think she meant that the book titles was hard to read because they were hyper links. But don’t worry, no need to edit that 🙂

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, RhubarbTart said:

@katrinka and @gregory I've decided to cast my lot with Boroveshengra and will start reading with only his "essence" definition of each card and expound upon those (by learning and incorporating his "progressed" meanings) when I have the essences of the cards down cold. To me this makes it approachable, expandable, and solid. I could prove myself wrong. Time will tell. I do appreciate the recommendations and help.

I have read Andy’s book and as a beginner I found it really straightforward and very helpful. I think that when learning lenormand, less is more, so you will be off to an excellent start with that book as your foundation 

[Decan]

14 hours ago, katrinka said:

Oh My! I'm glad that there is no "French school", because this... well 🤪

[gregory]

5 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I think she meant that the book titles was hard to read because they were hyper links. But don’t worry, no need to edit that 🙂

 

No - they weren't just hyperlinks; they were all highlighted in VERY deep purple; in the end I copied to word and removed the highlights. You must have hit the button right - it's normal now ! Thank you.

 

10 hours ago, HOLMES said:

I think one problem contributing to the idea of school is the difference inherent to how a reader will use the playing card inserts which is french vs german in the sense which one will be used. 

It is rana george who in her section of sticking to your system,first to me points out the difference calling it french/begian/dutch.  Calling the differences subtle which she says she uses the whip as sex, and i had no idea that would be deal. 

But even then she doesn't really deal with playing card insert. Neither does marcus katz, lisa sutton in her book which is new, or lozzy philips workbook. 

Lozzy says he sees them as a "design feature" 

So that is 4 books i have that doesn't look at the inserts.

 

So looked at alexandre book and his meanings for some of the cards were differnt then andy book. So before i came back i started to think i should study the playing cards insert, must be hidden meanings there.

 

Now months later, there may not be schools, i realize there is the french vs german system due to the playing card inserts depending on what style one learns. I waiting actually to see if any other system would be presented like imagine if some one said in canada since i live here (the diamonds were spades. And hearts was diamonds. )

But no it just seems for me it is just those differences mentioned. 

 

It doesn't seem to be a big deal in english for it would appear the playing cards are not being used in the newer books, and 2 older ones. 

Yet it is for it explains the differnce between older male in lilly and clouds depending on which system is used. 

 

Holmes - this was why I set up this thread. To counter everything you have just repeated here - and it's not your fault; it is down to so-called experts who continue to peddle the "two" (or more) "traditions/schools"  idea so that they can read Lenormand any which way they want. Which is fine for them - but they shouldn't be telling others how to do it; their way is idiosyncratic and not for anyone else. Remember Arrien's book on the Thoth ? Same kind of thing. "I don't like what Crowley wrote about this deck, so I am going to use my own meanings." Fine - but don't teach them to others as if they were the actual meanings, please.

 

As Toni Puhle (a genuine expert) says:

 

Quote

The “schools” as many refer to them are actually simply authors, teachers and readers just using what they are comfortable with. 

 and:

 

Quote

My advice for all Lenormand readers is to start with the original instructions and apply a little common sense – not all authors are authorities – not all teachers have researched – it doesn’t mean they are bad teachers, but it could mean they are not teaching the original Lenormand instructions – which are a great foundation for making Lenormand easy to interpret and a great way to begin growing your Lenormand vocabulary.

There are no "styles" to learn here. Just Lenormand.

 

10 hours ago, katrinka said:

Hi Holmes. 🙂

Those aren't systems, though. The French-suited insets retain their original meanings in Lenormand - that's why Clubs are trouble, etc. Nothing has changed.
It's just a different style of illustration.

 

That's because Lozzy is still new at this. He/she hasn't learned yet.

Rana is a very good reader, but she will tell you herself that she's not one to ask about card history, etc. For that you want Andy. Everybody who has looked into this in any detail knows there is no "french system" or "german system."

There are loads of people out there writing rubbish and saying they are experts. Isn't Lozzy the one who wrote a book which was basically "Let's all learn together, I don't know anything yet, either." NOT the best book to study from - the blind leading the blind.

[katrinka]

19 hours ago, gregory said:

It is simply one keyword that has been added to one book or to one course that is then applied over and over again – just because the author is French does not mean it is a French school – simply one French author adding the keyword cake – and if the author has a good outreach then a whole country can be reading Lenormand that way.

 

One keyword. She's correct - and this is incisive. 

The word "work" is not a "school".

[Guest]

16 hours ago, DownUnderNZer said:

For example, I watched a YouTube video in recent years where this Lenormand reader used both the FOX, and was it ANCHOR or MOON, as key cards at the same time for WORK.

 

Both are WORK cards for sure when used as a focus or key card, but not usually used at the same time as a focus/key card. I actually think she confused herself from memory, but don't quote me on that.

 

So, I'm wondering if she may have misunderstood it in some way. I think she did.

Significators — or as you refer to them, focus cards — are chosen for their perceived natural analogy.

 

The Moon refers to one’s employment status and success, the Anchor the stability, the Fox the competition and survival instinct, and so on. Similarly, both the Bear and Fishes are financial — the Bear stores (savings, pensions, &c) and the Fishes are the catch (your income). 

Consequently, experienced readers will use more than one in a reading. Most are able to cope with more than one significator at a time and not get confused or require sorting.

 

I first heard the term school in 2010 when someone contacted me about the cards’ significations on my then website. I later traced the term to Serena Powers who said “school of thought.” The meanings on Serena Powers’ site come from a Dutch forum —not French.

 

In 2013 I wrote much the same as Björn and Toni. I also suggested it was better to use the authors’ name. 

 

Most of what is classed as French comes from Marco. 
 

Mary (di) Marco was born in Tunisia to Italian parents, and later settled in Comines were she still consults. Marco uses the Fox and the Fishes for work (the latter for military jobs, freelancers and business owners).  However, Marco did not use the Birch Rod as sex — she says it is the phallus.  Marco actually says that the Serpent represents sexuality, something common in French sources.

 

Brepols were the first to specifically associate a card (the Moon) in c. 1910.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Isn't Lozzy the one who wrote a book which was basically "Let's all learn together, I don't know anything yet, either." NOT the best book to study from - the blind leading the blind.

No, that was Lisa Young-Sutton.

 

Lozzy follows Rana George (Marco-derived). 

[Guest]

One other misconception is that the pictures do not matter.

 

The pictures are the source of the cards’ essence.
 

Why does the Fox describe someone as having red/red-brown hair? Because of the picture.  Why can the Coffin refer to a box? Because of the picture. Why can the Cavalier be a man? Look at the (traditional) picture. 
 

The Petit Lenormand uses whole image rather than deconstruction methods (common to tarot). So when we say pictures do not matter we really mean individual symbols do not matter outside of the whole image. 
 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Guest

[gregory]

8 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

No, that was Lisa Young-Sutton.

 

Lozzy follows Rana George (Marco-derived). 

 

Thanks. And as katrinka said - Rana  says herself she doesn't do history; maybe Lisa needs to note that !

 

It's so good to see you ! 

[Guest]

Just now, gregory said:

And as katrinka said - Rana  says herself she doesn't do history; maybe Lisa needs to note that !

 

Lisa — like Louis’ book — has several sweeping statements and generalisations. The attempts to harmonise coffee cards and PL sheets and then several authors ... It is not a bad book. But not one for a beginner, either.  

[katrinka]

Well hello!

This is certainly an auspicious start for the day. 🙂

 

55 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

first heard the term school in 2010 when someone contacted me about the cards’ significations on my then website. I later traced the term to Serena Powers who said “school of thought.” The meanings on Serena Powers’ site come from a Dutch forum —not French.

I remember those. I think she changed them later.

 

56 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

In 2013 I wrote much the same as Björn and Toni. I also suggested it was better to use the authors’ name. 

 

Most of what is classed as French comes from Marco. 

 

Credit where credit is due, I agree. Saying "French school", etc. is a kind of erasure.

Good to see you back!

 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, gregory said:

Since schools have reared their heads in a game thread, may I quote from the excellent Toni Puhle:

 

 

"Schools, to me personally, are a way of saying “I don’t read per the original instructions”. The “schools” as many refer to them are actually simply authors, teachers and readers just using what they are comfortable with. Negative cards often are given a lighter, airier meaning  so  that deceit and other nasty issues in the world are left out of reads or a convenient "but Foxes are clever" so the card must mean a smart business person - I am not into crowbars so I have no interest in trying to make meanings fit my lifestyle - rather I should take heed when a negative card arises (hence why, in the Game of Hope, we have auspicious versus inauspicious cards - life is not all a bed of roses)."

 

This is the way I have always understood Lenormand. Lenormand is Lenormand. There are no schools, just  people who follow different individual authors.

 

Tori has a brilliant example of this: 

 

If you wrote a book today stating that the Petit Lenormand Card 32. Moon means “cake” there will be a number of readers who see that keyword and incorporate it in their readings and understandings of the Moon Card. They will go on and teach other readers that Moon means Cake and you have a new generation of readers. The teacher originated in France – this is naturally a French school of reading – or is it?

 

It is simply one keyword that has been added to one book or to one course that is then applied over and over again – just because the author is French does not mean it is a French school – simply one French author adding the keyword cake – and if the author has a good outreach then a whole country can be reading Lenormand that way.

 

Moon means cake .... Moon means cake ... Moon means Schwarzwaldekirschtorte ..

 

Yummy but not what one can see in the original instructions......

 

And she ends with:

 

My advice for all Lenormand readers is to start with the original instructions and apply a little common sense – not all authors are authorities – not all teachers have researched – it doesn’t mean they are bad teachers, but it could mean they are not teaching the original Lenormand instructions – which are a great foundation for making Lenormand easy to interpret and a great way to begin growing your Lenormand vocabulary.

 

This seems to me quite brilliant - and just what Andy Boroveshengra was trying to get across here a couple of weeks ago.

It is something I have endeavoured to get across for a number of years.  If one spends some time both researching, and thinks sensibly, one cannot see the schools as anything but fiction.  If you put Marco, Silvestre and Delclos side-by-side you will see considerable diversity. How do you decide which is French?  The latter two are both French but the former only writes in French.  Marco is far more popular in Belgium than the Dutch-writer Droesbeke. 

I use a number of Marco’s spreads. The meanings I use are close to Silvestre. The method of combinations I use is close to all the French authors.  But I’ve been repeatedly told I’m German… But what does that make Malkiel or Weng?  French?  
 

What Toni says above is close to what I said on the Cabinet in 2013 — along with a translation of the original instructions. 

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

I remember those. I think she changed them later.

The ones on there now come from the Dutch forum but have been added to.  

 

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Credit where credit is due, I agree. Saying "French school", etc. is a kind of erasure.

Yes. That is how I see it.  Marco has quirks such as asking for names of the client and relevant parties along with their star signs.  
 

Sadly, Ms. Steinbach never felt the need to credit the book she once described as the bible. But Marco and Droesbeke deserve a lot of credit.

 

30 minutes ago, katrinka said:

Well hello!

This is certainly an auspicious start for the day. 🙂

You’re kind. I thought I had cancelled my deactivation request but must have done so as it took effect. 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Guest

[gregory]

I imagine they can merge your older stuff if you wanted ? We can't have you deactivated. We need you.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, gregory said:

I imagine they can merge your older stuff if you wanted ? We can't have you deactivated. We need you.

I’ve sent a message asking if they can. It took me a while to work out why I couldn’t log in lol 

[gregory]

I shouldn't laugh, but 

 

Anyway - you stay RIGHT HERE, please.

[katrinka]

1 minute ago, gregory said:

I imagine they can merge your older stuff if you wanted ? We can't have you deactivated. We need you.

 

8 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

The ones on there now come from the Dutch forum but have been added to.  

 

Moony's?

 

14 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Yes. That is how I see it.  Marco has quirks such as asking for names of the client and relevant parties along with their star signs.  

 

I've read that Mlle. Lenormand used to ask even more: the client's favorite color, favorite animal, etc.
 

14 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Sadly, Ms. Steinbach never felt the need to credit the book she once described as the bible. But Marco and Droesbeke deserve a lot of credit.

Indeed. It would have been common decency, and it would have given her book more credibility if she'd cited her sources.