Lenormand schools and other misconceptions debunked

[gregory]

Since schools have reared their heads in a game thread, may I quote from the excellent Toni Puhle:

 

 

"Schools, to me personally, are a way of saying “I don’t read per the original instructions”. The “schools” as many refer to them are actually simply authors, teachers and readers just using what they are comfortable with. Negative cards often are given a lighter, airier meaning  so  that deceit and other nasty issues in the world are left out of reads or a convenient "but Foxes are clever" so the card must mean a smart business person - I am not into crowbars so I have no interest in trying to make meanings fit my lifestyle - rather I should take heed when a negative card arises (hence why, in the Game of Hope, we have auspicious versus inauspicious cards - life is not all a bed of roses)."

 

This is the way I have always understood Lenormand. Lenormand is Lenormand. There are no schools, just  people who follow different individual authors.

 

Tori has a brilliant example of this: 

 

If you wrote a book today stating that the Petit Lenormand Card 32. Moon means “cake” there will be a number of readers who see that keyword and incorporate it in their readings and understandings of the Moon Card. They will go on and teach other readers that Moon means Cake and you have a new generation of readers. The teacher originated in France – this is naturally a French school of reading – or is it?

 

It is simply one keyword that has been added to one book or to one course that is then applied over and over again – just because the author is French does not mean it is a French school – simply one French author adding the keyword cake – and if the author has a good outreach then a whole country can be reading Lenormand that way.

 

Moon means cake .... Moon means cake ... Moon means Schwarzwaldekirschtorte ..

 

Yummy but not what one can see in the original instructions......

 

And she ends with:

 

My advice for all Lenormand readers is to start with the original instructions and apply a little common sense – not all authors are authorities – not all teachers have researched – it doesn’t mean they are bad teachers, but it could mean they are not teaching the original Lenormand instructions – which are a great foundation for making Lenormand easy to interpret and a great way to begin growing your Lenormand vocabulary.

 

This seems to me quite brilliant - and just what Andy Boroveshengra was trying to get across here a couple of weeks ago.

Edited May 30, 2021 by gregory

[Raggydoll]

I am glad to see a separate thread for this topic.  I too have come to the conclusion that 'schools' is an unfortunate and unhelpful expression in the lenormand context. 

[gregory]

It does always seem to me that it causes quite unnecessary confusion, especially among beginners. I am one of these, have read a lot already, and it's already blindingly obvious (to me anyway) that except among people with an axe of some kind to grind (=self-defined experts) they simply don't exist. The better authors seem to agree.

[fire cat pickles]

I'm glad you started this. It will help clear up quite a bit of confusion for me, and hopefully others.

 

 

 

 

 

[fire cat pickles]

May I start a list with what I can remember to be common misconceptions tied to purported "Schools"? Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

Anchor, Fox, Moon = Work

Whips, Lilies = Sex

Snake = Woman of ill-repute, the other woman

Clouds = confusion, unclear answer, similar to the Magic 8-Ball "ask again later"

 

There are more.

 

I don't know what "Schools" these are supposedly from. These are just what I remember being floated around, and these are what confuse me the most. Maybe this will get the conversation started.

[Raggydoll]

10 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

May I start a list with what I can remember to be common misconceptions tied to purported "Schools"? Correct me if I'm wrong!

 

Anchor, Fox, Moon = Work

Whips, Lilies = Sex

Snake = Woman of ill-repute, the other woman

Clouds = confusion, unclear answer, similar to the Magic 8-Ball "ask again later"

 

There are more.

 

I don't know what "Schools" these are supposedly from. These are just what I remember being floated around, and these are what confuse me the most. Maybe this will get the conversation started.

Good examples, that’s the stuff I’ve seen mentioned in the past too. 

[katrinka]

Yes! Andy's been saying it for years. Bjorn Meuris, too. There's a consensus of three credible published authors right there.

Lenormand "schools" are a hasty generalization fallacy. that is, drawing a conclusion based on a small sample size rather than looking at statistics that are much more in line with the typical or average situation. For example:

"Cats have sharp claws."
"Cats make good pets."
"Animals with sharp claws make good pets."

Obviously, a rabid wolverine would not make a good pet. But our fallacious example only looks at cats - not wolverines, lions, badgers, bears, etc. It's no different than assuming everybody, or even a majority of people in a given country all read Lenormand the way a certain author from that country does. Just a little critical thinking is all we need.




 

[katrinka]

45 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

Anchor, Fox, Moon = Work

 

Said to be German, French, and Dutch/Belgian, respectively. But we know better.
 

Quote

Whips, Lilies = Sex

 

People say the Whips are a French sex card. But that doesn't explain Judith Bartschi's Whips:

 

If Judith puts a dominatrix in her very German deck, but Treppner doesn't use the Whips that way, this "schools" thing falls apart.

That said, I don't read Whips as sex. It can describe sex as rough, but the essence of something you beat people with is not "sex."
 

Quote

Snake = Woman of ill-repute, the other woman

 

I don't think I've seen that attributed to any particular region, it's just a grossly oversimplified Snake interpretation.
But I could be wrong. Lots of bad info out there.
 

Quote

Clouds = confusion, unclear answer, similar to the Magic 8-Ball "ask again later"

 

Magic 8 Ball? Are there also Cootie Catcher meanings? 🙄

Edited May 30, 2021 by katrinka

[fire cat pickles]

3 minutes ago, katrinka said:

People say the Whips are a French sex card. But that doesn't explain Judith Bartschi's Whips:

I just can't...

[katrinka]

She's got monkey sex going on in the Tree, too.
It's a bit too much.

[fire cat pickles]

I  believe I've seen Tree referred to as a sex card, as well. Sex is healthy, yes, and Tree may indicate health, in context. But Tree on its own, neither.

 

All kinds of misinformation out there.

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[gregory]

May I add this from the thread where it shouldn't have been: I started the , as I was peeved, but that derailed it all...

  

3 hours ago, katrinka said:

The idea of Lenormand "schools" started on facebook in 2012 or so, and it was debunked soon after.
Andy has stated many times over that not everyone in France reads the same way, nor in Belgium, nor Germany. If you look at Britta Kienle's card meanings and compare them to Iris Treppner's, there are some major differences, yet both are German.

What happened was that people wrote books: Erna Droesbeke's book said that the Moon was work, and she's Belgian, so people assumed there was a "Dutch/Belgian school." Same with Colette Silvestre, people assumed a French school, but Colette is not representative of all French readers. It was all just a faulty assumption. There was a lot of misinformation going around then.

Here is Bjorn Meuris saying the same thing in a screenshot from 2014:

 

I'd like to add that the Moon in Lenormand is recognition, honors, and fame. It's important not to transpose Tarot meanings to it. The Moon can be work, since we're known by what we do. But the Anchor is stability and it can tie you down - jobs do that. Any card can be talking about some kind of work, or some aspect of work. As you gain experience you won't need a "work card." I wouldn't attribute "stagnation" to the Anchor, either, unless it was in combination with some nasty card, which it isn't here.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

 

[Guest]

It might be the time for a "Common Lenormand Misconceptions"-thread has come.

[Raggydoll]

9 minutes ago, treppatey said:

It might be the time for a "Common Lenormand Misconceptions"-thread has come.

Good idea! 

[gregory]

I think this is kind of it ?

[DownUnderNZer]

 

Although I think there is most definitely a place for traditional learning - I feel these "so called new introduced systems or schools" add something too. 

 

There is nothing wrong with them nor are they any less than.

 

The confusion I believe would have first started with those learning online, but not knowing what they were really learning. The resources weren't there - especially in English.

 

It isn't their fault and some likely would have picked up some not so kosher ways of understanding the Lenormand even at a basic level.

 

Even taking some cards to mean the exact same thing.

 

For example, I watched a YouTube video in recent years where this Lenormand reader used both the FOX, and was it ANCHOR or MOON, as key cards at the same time for WORK.

 

Both are WORK cards for sure when used as a focus or key card, but not usually used at the same time as a focus/key card. I actually think she confused herself from memory, but don't quote me on that.

 

So, I'm wondering if she may have misunderstood it in some way. I think she did.

 

Now this is just me - if you look at Belgium, France, Switzerland and Germany - they all border on one another and their languages cross over into each other's regions.

 

Could the same not be said for the Lenormand?

 

Take a look at Brazil - I have looked at their meanings translated and there is a strong traditional German influence as well as their own spin on the cards. 

 

Now is their "system/school" questionable? Does it also need to be debunked or pulled through the ringer?

 

I think not and it has it's place too.

 

I bought Steinbach's book around 2011, or even 2012, and even though that book was hard to grasp it actually put things into perspective for me enough to see a German style/method and French style/method - I didn't get that from anywhere else except from what I was first taught, Traditional (German) - even French when I look at it with the second German teacher, only with Steinbach's book (even Steinbach herself) - she and her book ironed it all out for me enough to see the difference.

 

I have no idea where the schools came from and it doesn't make any difference to me - what is important is it shouldn't matter whether someone does traditional or not or refer to French, German, Dutch or whatever.

 

Using schools/systems/methods can be an effective way of sorting someone's reading out if you know they use Fox, Bear, Moon or Anchor as a a key or focus card for Work. Especially if you have an understanding of the cards that are different even though most cards really don't.

 

Systems/methods/schools do have a place and arent going anywhere anytime soon plus the only one really that is quite different if you look at it - is the Brazilian method/school/system.

 

These are just my thoughts on the topic.

 

DND 🌞

[Raggydoll]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

I think this is kind of it ?

There are other types of misconceptions than there being different ‘schools’. For instance, some add tarot/Oracle influences to their interpretations. I know that was one of the first things Mary Greer brought up in one of her lenormand webinars, probably because there are so many that learn tarot first and then move on to lenormand. Not sure if those discussions belong in this thread, given the title? You started the thread so if you want to broaden it to involve all types of misconceptions, then go ahead 🙂

[Guest]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

I think this is kind of it ?

I was referring to not "kind of" but "in fact".

To avoid the "off topic" sign butting in.

The misconceptions, as @fire cat pickles and @katrinka have pointed out (see this part:

4 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

Quote

Snake = Woman of ill-repute, the other woman

 

I don't think I've seen that attributed to any particular region, it's just a grossly oversimplified Snake interpretation.

) do prevail over the concept of "schools".

 

[fire cat pickles]

But there are no "schools"—that  is the misconception and the point of the topic. Perhaps if gregory just adds "and other misconceptions " to the title?

 

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[gregory]

38 minutes ago, fire cat pickles said:

But there are there no "schools"—that  is the misconception and the point of the topic. Perhaps if gregory just adds "and other misconceptions " to the title?

 

 

Exactly this. Even for people like @DownUnderNZer who seem to pretty much do their own thing, the school theory adds nothing.

 

2 hours ago, DownUnderNZer said:

I have no idea where the schools came from and it doesn't make any difference to me - what is important is it shouldn't matter whether someone does traditional or not or refer to French, German, Dutch or whatever.

 

Using schools/systems/methods can be an effective way of sorting someone's reading out if you know they use Fox, Bear, Moon or Anchor as a a key or focus card for Work. Especially if you have an understanding of the cards that are different even though most cards really don't.

 

This is precisely the kind of thing that muddles Lenormand for people who want to use the cards properly. You don't have to sort out people's readings for them.  (Who says they need sorting out - did they ask ?) You can see from what they post what meaning they attribute. To say that it is the German or something meaning means exactly nothing, and to suggest that you can "sort them out" if you know they use the "German" meaning for Fox or whatever doesn't sort anything out for anyone; it just means that one person tries to impose their way of using the cards on someone else.

 

It should make a difference to any serious student where things came from, especially the things that are actually wrong.

 

(I will add that, pickles - thanks.)

[thirty6cards]

If I may, I see bunches of "these are the misconceptions", "these are wrong", etc. so would anyone care to provide resources to any original and bona fide meanings of each card so a person learning may see the difference in what was the original meaning and what is now considered to be a misconception?

[gregory]

You have my sympathy. I have been seriously trying to learn Lenormand, and there is so much out there that just muddies the water. I believe such a thread is on the way.

 

Meanwhile here is one EXCELLENT site.

 

https://www.cardgeek.co.uk/post/lenormand-schools-fact-or-fiction

 

The best book I know is Andy Boroveshengra's - 

 

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Lenormand-Thirty-Six-Cards-Introduction/dp/1500582484/ref=sr_1_1

 

I'll wait for someone with more experience @katrinka - are you listening ? -  to find a good site with the basic meanings.

Edited May 30, 2021 by gregory

[katrinka]

Whatever is decided, I just want to add that there are no known Lenormand books published before 1980. People everywhere relied on the instructions that came with the deck, and those were the same instructions translated into various languages. I think that these instructions, the Philippe Lenormand sheet, (@RhubarbTart) are what is being referenced in the OP as "the original instructions", as the Spiel der Hoffnung instructions were not around for so long, and were only published in german, to my knowledge.

The meanings given in the Philippe Lenormand sheet are extremely brief, and yes, people expanded them. But the additions would have happened within social circles - I imagine it was closer to things kids in various high school cliques do - the goth kids wearing Dr. Martens, the preppie kids wearing boat shoes or whatever - you get the picture. In any case, the rulers of the countries obviously didn't issue any edict that the "work card" will be such-and-such.

But at the root of all that, everyone was working off the same instructions. You can see the "close" meanings in the interpretations we use these days. (This is why it's beneficial to study distance reading, even if you don't intend to use it: it can provide insights into root meanings and the cards in various positions.)

 

13 minutes ago, gregory said:

To say that it is the German or something meaning means exactly nothing, and to suggest that you can "sort them out" if you know they use the "German" meaning for Fox or whatever doesn't sort anything out for anyone; it just means that one person tries to impose their way of using the cards on someone else.

 

It's not productive and it's rude - imagine telling someone they're "German school" when they know they aren't.
It's one thing to teach the method. It's quite another to spread debunked ideas.
 

[katrinka]

4 minutes ago, gregory said:

The best book I know is Andy Boroveshengra's - 

 

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Lenormand-Thirty-Six-Cards-Introduction/dp/1500582484/ref=sr_1_1

 

I'll wait for someone with more experience @katrinka - are you listening ? -  to find a good site with the basic meanings.

Andy's book is far and away the best.
For those who just want to get their feet wet and decide if Lenormand is for them or not, the Treppner course is an excellent free resource:
https://www.spirisfeed.com/lana-download/lenormand-course/

But if you're serious, get Andy's book. 😉

[gregory]

Thanks for that - I shall add it to Andy's book