Lenormand schools and other misconceptions debunked

[Raggydoll]

@timtoldrum So happy to see you, and I am very grateful for the information you added to this discussion!

 

[Albadawn]

Great to see you @timtoldrum! 😁

 

As you’ll have seen, we’ve made a few changes to the section to try and get it better organised. We have a couple more things in the pipeline too. Hopefully this will help with the section running much more smoothly than it had been beforehand. 
 

Must let this thread get back on topic, but very happy to see you again! 🙂 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, gregory said:

I shouldn't laugh, but 

 

Anyway - you stay RIGHT HERE, please.

 

Best to laugh.  I even Googled and learned how to delete a saved password in an iPhone as I thought I must have changed passwords on the laptop!  

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Moony's?

 

No. It was a Dutch language group, if I recall correctly.  Moony is closer to Marco than Steinbach.  She states that the Serpent is the card of sexuality, and also that the Queen of Clubs can be a feminine female, mother or rival.   The Birch Rod describes someone as tired and tormented rather than athletic and sexy...  

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

I've read that Mlle. Lenormand used to ask even more: the client's favorite color, favorite animal, etc.

 

Marco sees the name and star-sign as a way of linking the cards to the Querent... 😉  Mlle Le Normand did ask several questions: the first letter of your birth town, favourite flower, colour, what time you went to bed last night lol.

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

Indeed. It would have been common decency, and it would have given her book more credibility if she'd cited her sources.

 

I think it is important to acknowledge sources. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

@timtoldrum So happy to see you, and I am very grateful for the information you added to this discussion!

 

 

You're very kind 🙂

 

22 minutes ago, Albadawn said:

Great to see you @timtoldrum! 😁

 

As you’ll have seen, we’ve made a few changes to the section to try and get it better organised. We have a couple more things in the pipeline too. Hopefully this will help with the section running much more smoothly than it had been beforehand. 
 

Must let this thread get back on topic, but very happy to see you again! 🙂 

 

The changes are brilliant.  A dedicated section for new readers is a great innovation and something that many readers will appreciate.  I look forward to seeing what other changes the moderating team has for the section and congratulate and thank you for your innovation and dedication.  I am sorry if I ever gave you reason to doubt that I value your roles.    

 

[Guest]

Here is some more for the debunkers:

 

1: Are Grand Tableaus only a thing for experts?

2: Is the Heart-Card always about romantic love?

3: Are the playing card inserts entirely useless in divination?

[joy]

Such a great start into the week to see you back with us @timtoldrum😀

[DownUnderNZer]

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Significators — or as you refer to them, focus cards — are chosen for their perceived natural analogy.

 

@timtoldrum

 

I was trying to find that YouTube video but it seems to not be there, from memory (and it is rusty) she pointed out one card in her GT as work, a focus card, and was starting to talk about it then spotted another card a few rows down and quickly bursted out more or less : "Oh wait - that's work too!".

Like both cards represented work not that they were a particular type of job or that they were all about a situation and/or people.

 

That was the impression I got.

 

I could be wrong...

 

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

The Moon refers to one’s employment status and success, the Anchor the stability, the Fox the competition and survival instinct, and so on. Similarly, both the Bear and Fishes are financial — the Bear stores (savings, pensions, &c) and the Fishes are the catch (your income). 

 

Moon as a job came up on AT for me for the first time as well as the Snake not being the other woman by some Dutch Lenormand learners. One of the threads there that discussed a number of things like the Snake.

 

All I knew before that was the way I was taught and how Steinbach did it. In fact, transitioning to her style and method was no easy feat, but a freer style of reading was what I wanted.

 

Later came the Brazilian, the Gypsy and Russian.

 

 

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Consequently, experienced readers will use more than one in a reading. Most are able to cope with more than one significator at a time and not get confused or require sorting.

 

You mean like Bear and Fish if it is about finances or do you mean something like Fish for finances, Moon for work, Tree for Health etc.

 

 

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

I first heard the term school in 2010 when someone contacted me about the cards’ significations on my then website. I later traced the term to Serena Powers who said “school of thought.” The meanings on Serena Powers’ site come from a Dutch forum —not French.

 

I would have seen schools mentioned on AT because AT was pretty much the only place I was signed up to - but for Tarot. I was never really interested in the Lenormand section there so didn't venture in until I had learned what I needed for the Tarot (basics). I think I spotted in the feed one day a one card Lenormand game and it blew my mind away. I had never seen individual cards read by themselves before and definitely not in such a fun way.

 

 

6 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

 

In 2013 I wrote much the same as Björn and Toni. I also suggested it was better to use the authors’ name. 

 

Most of what is classed as French comes from Marco. 
 

Mary (di) Marco was born in Tunisia to Italian parents, and later settled in Comines were she still consults. Marco uses the Fox and the Fishes for work (the latter for military jobs, freelancers and business owners).  However, Marco did not use the Birch Rod as sex — she says it is the phallus.  Marco actually says that the Serpent represents sexuality, something common in French sources.

 

Brepols were the first to specifically associate a card (the Moon) in c. 1910.

 

So, Mary Marco obviously has a book or books published - just not in English.

 

In Steinbach's book from memory (it is somewhere here boxed away) I'm sure she states she was generationally taught by an aunt or grand mother. 

 

But I think from what you are saying is that Marco is behind what has become classed as the French method/style.

 

Steinbach though, for me, was the first one to publish any book in English and if it wasn't for her doing that - I wouldn't have been able to transition to a freer style of reading or to see that there was another way besides Traditional.

 

I am actually thankful to her for that even if I don't quite agree with the strictness of her methodology.

 

I think Brazil looks at the Snake as sex too. 

 

 

DND 🌞

 

[fire cat pickles]

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

1: Are Grand Tableaus only a thing for experts?

2: Is the Heart-Card always about romantic love?

3: Are the playing card inserts entirely useless in divination?

1- I've never heard that the GT is only for "experts". Are there only experts out there? If they are, they're not widely found in this country (US). The only two experts I know of are katrinka and Andy, actually. 

 

2- The Heart card is anything near and dear to the heart. It can be the actual heart. It can be the circulatory system. I am an organist, so it could be an church organ (the organ being the "heart" of the church) if I were doing a reading about work (speaking of "work" cards) as this is  one of my jobs.

 

3- I have never heard that the inserts are "entirely useless". I have no idea where this idea came from. Where did you hear it, Facebook?

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

 

@timtoldrum

 

I was trying to find that YouTube video but it seems to not be there, from memory (and it is rusty) she pointed out one card in her GT as work, a focus card, and was starting to talk about it then spotted another card a few rows down and quickly bursted out more or less : "Oh wait - that's work too!".

 

Like both cards represented work not that they were a particular type of job or that they were all about a situation and/or people.

 

That was the impression I got.

 

I could be wrong...

Hello @DownUnderNZer.  YouTube can be a rabbit hole of mindless nonsense.   I do not disbelieve you. I tend to just stick to one or two channels (both French).

 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

Moon as a job came up on AT for me for the first time as well as the Snake not being the other woman by some Dutch Lenormand learners. One of the threads there that discussed a number of things like the Snake.

 

All I knew before that was the way I was taught and how Steinbach did it. In fact, transitioning to her style and method was no easy feat, but a freer style of reading was what I wanted.

 

Later came the Brazilian, the Gypsy and Russian.

My Aunt — who was illiterate — taught me that the Moon was the position or status which she often delineated in terms of profession (usually, of the husband).  

 

Consequently, I’ve always read it as our professional standing and career.  If you’re going for a job interview, or promotion, you look for the Moon card, because it shows how you will be perceived (fame) by the panel and if you’re be hired (honours). 
 

If I was concerned with job security I’d look at the Anchor. For my competition, the Fox. 
 

The Dutch author, Erna Droesbeke, whose work is often classified as “Belgian Dutch School” associated the Moon with career. Her Dutch book (1987) was translated into French (1988) and English and German (1989).  But the first to specifically associate a card with work was the Brepols publishing house (c. 1910 and it was the Moon). 

 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

You mean like Bear and Fish if it is about finances or do you mean something like Fish for finances, Moon for work, Tree for Health etc.

Yes. Both the Bear and Fishes for finances.  They are both financial cards (so is the Mice and Coffin).  You use all of them to build up the full picture.  
 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

I would have seen schools mentioned on AT because AT was pretty much the only place I was signed up to - but for Tarot. I was never really interested in the Lenormand section there so didn't venture in until I had learned what I needed for the Tarot (basics). I think I spotted in the feed one day a one card Lenormand game and it blew my mind away. I had never seen individual cards read by themselves before and definitely not in such a fun way.

The term started with Serena who said school of thought.  But when I was quizzed I had not heard it. 

 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

So, Mary Marco obviously has a book or books published - just not in English.

 

In Steinbach's book from memory (it is somewhere here boxed away) I'm sure she states she was generationally taught by an aunt or grand mother. 

 

But I think from what you are saying is that Marco is behind what has become classed as the French method/style.

 

Steinbach though, for me, was the first one to publish any book in English and if it wasn't for her doing that - I wouldn't have been able to transition to a freer style of reading or to see that there was another way besides Traditional.

 

I am actually thankful to her for that even if I don't quite agree with the strictness of her methodology.

 

I think Brazil looks at the Snake as sex too. 

Yes. Mary di Marco was born in 1944 in Tunisia to Italian parents who were teachers.  At the time, Tunisia was under French rule.  Marco had a serious accident and went on to study metaphysics and cartomancie.  She later moved to Comines where she worked as a reader and was asked to lecture in Paris.  In 1989, she published The Petit Lenormand : Méthode de Cartomancie.  Mme. di Marco is still reading in Comines.
 

That book is the basis for what is called French School. But she doesn’t read the Birch Rod as exercise, and so on.
 

 I read the book in the early 1990s.  Although I never adopted the Fox/Fishes for work I used (and still use) a number of her spreads — le grand jeu du destin, tirage de la roue, the 3 x 5. 
 

From memory, Ms. Steinbach’s paternal aunt was a mentor. But she did use Marco, too.  Steinbach did a Russian webinar where she discussed it. 

 

1 hour ago, DownUnderNZer said:

I think Brazil looks at the Snake as sex too. 

 None of the Brazilian readers I know do. But I am sure some do and others don’t. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

1: Are Grand Tableaus only a thing for experts?

The Grand Tableau was how most readers (including myself) learned how to use the Petit Lenormand. Over time, it has been mystified and copious ancillary techniques developed. Unfortunately, many believe that you must use houses, counting, knighting and everything else to the point the GT becomes akin to performing the twelve labours of Heracles.

 

Not so.  You can just throw a GT and work simply. Done thus you will learn more and see it is far from a expert’s only. 

 

Personally, I do not believe in experts.  Just students of longer durations. Like the old astrologers.

 

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

Is the Heart-Card always about romantic love?

The Hearts refers to all emotions — from anger (Birch Rod), to grief (Coffin) to happiness (Sun) and surprises (Cloverleaf).

 

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

Are the playing card inserts entirely useless in divination?

No. They are important. Some people believe that because (for example) the 10 of Spades doesn’t show someone with ten knives in their back, they are “contradictory.” 
 

But most after working with the cards see that they can offer additional tools (multiples and regards) to reader. 

[HOLMES]

42 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

The Hearts refers to all emotions — from anger (Birch Rod), to grief (Coffin) to happiness (Sun) and surprises (Cloverleaf).

 

 

 

This is a big one, for i still see hearts dealing with love.  To see it as all emotion makes it open  up. 

But I just realized the coffin is in diamonds, with sun, and cloverleaf though . And birch is in clubs. 

How can one see hearts there ?

 

Edited to add 

I mean for the beginner who sees not an heart in sight. Just the suit of diamonds  spades, or club?

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by HOLMES

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

 

This is a big one, for i still see hearts dealing with love.  To see it as all emotion makes it open  up. 

But I just realized the coffin is in diamonds, with sun, and cloverleaf though . And birch is in clubs. 

How can one see hearts there ?

 

Edited to add 

I mean for the beginner who sees not an heart in sight. Just the suit of diamonds  spades, or club?

 

 

Hi @Holmes we are talking about card no. 24 the Heart not the suit.  The Heart card is the card of emotions. The cards it falls with indicate the specific emotion, e.g. the Heart + the Birch Rod is anger. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

The Grand Tableau was how most readers (including myself) learned how to use the Petit Lenormand. Over time, it has been mystified and copious ancillary techniques developed. Unfortunately, many believe that you must use houses, counting, knighting and everything else to the point the GT becomes akin to performing the twelve labours of Heracles.

 

Precisely!
I've even seen people reading all the cards in all the houses! Contrast that with watching Malkiel fly through a GT at warp speed, lol

 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Personally, I do not believe in experts.  Just students of longer durations. Like the old astrologers.

 

Yep. We're still learning. We're always learning, rethinking, honing...you never get to the bottom of all of it.
If the subject could be exhausted, I'd have lost interest years ago.
 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

No. They are important. Some people believe that because (for example) the 10 of Spades doesn’t show someone with ten knives in their back, they are “contradictory.”

 

It sounds like they didn't bother to look down just a bit, see a Ship there, and realize that the whole card is talking about something else...

[gregory]

I've watched Mary Greer do one at high speed - in a pub, with alcohol.... - and also - this was weird - Caitlin Matthews set one up with tarot (standard Smith Waite deck) and fly through it.

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, gregory said:

I've watched Mary Greer do one at high speed - in a pub, with alcohol....

 

Yes! It should be something you're able to have fun with like that - not some endless, nitpicky chore.

 

4 hours ago, gregory said:

- and also - this was weird - Caitlin Matthews set one up with tarot (standard Smith Waite deck) and fly through it.

 

She would absolutely do that, lol. And there's no reason not to! Sibilla and Kippers are scenic like RWS, and they can certainly be read in GTs. So why not bring some of these ideas to Tarot? Why not have the 5 of Pentacles simply describe a person card as poor or a job as low paying, instead of having a discussion about whether the homeless people can enter the church and what it might all mean on a psycho/spiritual level? A GT would certainly work if you did that. and it would be quite manageable.

[gregory]

It certainly did work !

[devin]

I regularly do GTs using Tarot and or playing cards using a very simple near/far technique. It works super well.

[Albadawn]

So were these still done using 36 cards? Or was the whole tarot deck laid out? (Must have been a huge table if so...!)

[gregory]

Mary was using a Lenormand; Caitlin just drew 36 cards from her tarot deck.

[devin]

Playing cards, a whole deck of minis. Tarot, majors and aces with leftovers lumped in a short line at the bottom.

[gregory]

HOW MANY ????

[devin]

 

😀

 

Sorry, when I said I use the Tarot majors and aces with the left overs lumped in a line at the bottom, what I meant was: I use the majors and aces with those majors and aces that don't fit into a symmetrical box shape lumped into a short line at the bottom. I do sometimes read a GT with a full pack of playing cards though. In either case, I only pay attention to a few relevant significators and their surrounding cards. So it's not that bad.

 

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by devin

[katrinka]

On 5/31/2021 at 1:45 PM, DownUnderNZer said:

 

@timtoldrum

 

I was trying to find that YouTube video but it seems to not be there, from memory (and it is rusty) she pointed out one card in her GT as work, a focus card, and was starting to talk about it then spotted another card a few rows down and quickly bursted out more or less : "Oh wait - that's work too!".

 

Like both cards represented work not that they were a particular type of job or that they were all about a situation and/or people.

 

That was the impression I got.

 

I could be wrong...

 

It sounds more like she was wrong.

 

On 5/31/2021 at 1:45 PM, DownUnderNZer said:

Moon as a job came up on AT for me for the first time as well as the Snake not being the other woman by some Dutch Lenormand learners. One of the threads there that discussed a number of things like the Snake.

 

All I knew before that was the way I was taught and how Steinbach did it. In fact, transitioning to her style and method was no easy feat, but a freer style of reading was what I wanted.

 

It's sad that for a time, all that was available in english was Steinbach and Treppner. Of the two, I still recommend Treppner.

 

On 5/31/2021 at 1:45 PM, DownUnderNZer said:

So, Mary Marco obviously has a book or books published - just not in English.

 

Yep.

Lenormand was like that until the 2010's - nothing in english but Treppner and Steinbach (Though Droesbeke did make a brief appearance,) The way to learn was to put Waldfee, etc. through your google translate,,,

 

On 5/31/2021 at 1:45 PM, DownUnderNZer said:

In Steinbach's book from memory (it is somewhere here boxed away) I'm sure she states she was generationally taught by an aunt or grand mother. 

 

Her grandmother must have learned from Marco's book, then.
Though "grandmother stories" are not unusual in this milieu.

 

 

[Raggydoll]

In Mary Greers basic Lenormand webinar she recommended that new readers learn and use all the work cards and their different nuances but that you decide on one card to be your main work card. She also didn’t use the word schools, she said ‘traditions’ and that in some countries there are multiple traditions to be found and that there basically were no hard guidelines and many personal variations. (I am paraphrasing the gist of it). So from what I understood she herself didn’t pay much attention to ‘schools’ but to rather understand the different nuances of cards that can all signify work (for instance). So the Moon would reference a different aspect of work (fame/outer respectability etc) than let’s say Fox. 
 

It felt very in line with what’s already been said here by Katrinka and Andy. I believe she said that the reason why there are these differences is that originally some topics weren’t really covered by the cards. So the stuff we wish to read about today would have to be matched with a card. And if different authors/readers have found different solutions to that then they will then create what we call traditions when others follow their lead.
 

To name those traditions after a country is, I think, very misleading. I have personally found that often, a native author might not have the largest impact on their own country. at least not in the western world. It’s like if foreign authors can be seen as more interesting or exotic, or even more competent. Maybe because it’s less of an ego thing when they aren’t your neighbor or colleague, so to speak. It’s easier to praise them if they are seen as mysterious and somewhat distant to you. Here in Sweden that has definitely been the case. When they tried to sell a new book/method for fortune telling then they’d claim it was a secret method used by a mysterious Finnish/Sami person or a Romani reader or a French reader.   I suspect that might be the case in other western countries too. ‘No one is a prophet in their own land’ and all that. 

[katrinka]

49 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

In Mary Greers basic Lenormand webinar she recommended that new readers learn and use all the work cards and their different nuances but that you decide on one card to be your main work card. She also didn’t use the word schools, she said ‘traditions’ and that in some countries there are multiple traditions to be found and that there basically were no hard guidelines and many personal variations. (I am paraphrasing the gist of it). So from what I understood she herself didn’t pay much attention to ‘schools’ but to rather understand the different nuances of cards that can all signify work (for instance). So the Moon would reference a different aspect of work (fame/outer respectability etc) than let’s say Fox. 

 

Exactly.
If you're in real estate, the House might come up to represent your work. Import/export, the Ship.
I still tend to fall back on the Anchor - not because "that's how I learned", but because most people I know work to pay the bills, i.e., stability. They aren't identified by their jobs, they take what's available. Someone with the luxury of higher education would be the Moon - "He is a lawyer/doctor/whatever." Same for someone with a talent, like a musician. But most people just find some BS that pays the bills. Next week they could be working at some other BS, it doesn't define them.
 

49 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

It felt very in line with what’s already been said here by Katrinka and Andy. I believe she said that the reason why there are these differences is that originally some topics weren’t really covered by the cards. So the stuff we wish to read about today would have to be matched with a card. And if different authors/readers have found different solutions to that then they will then create what we call traditions when others follow their lead.

 

Hence the Birds = phone calls thing. It worked great until texting caught on: Still Birds, or Letter? I think most of us are keeping written communication to Letter these days, even if it consists of things like "U up?" 😁

 

49 minutes ago, Raggydoll said:

To name those traditions after a country is, I think, very misleading. I have personally found that often, a native author might not have the largest impact on their own country. at least not in the western world. It’s like if foreign authors can be seen as more interesting or exotic, or even more competent. Maybe because it’s less of an ego thing when they aren’t your neighbor or colleague, so to speak. It’s easier to praise them if they are seen as mysterious and somewhat distant to you. Here in Sweden that has definitely been the case. When they tried to sell a new book/method for fortune telling then they’d claim it was a secret method used by a mysterious Finnish/Sami person or a Romani reader or a French reader.   I suspect that might be the case in other western countries too. ‘No one is a prophet in their own land’ and all that. 

You have only to look at old  books and decks. So many of them were attributed to Mlle. Lenormand or the Roma. I suppose that sold better than "Two guys named Lenny and Charlie in a basement." 🤣