Lenormand schools and other misconceptions debunked

[HOLMES]

Guess it be like how they named the variants b117 instead of uk variant to move away from racial discrimination i assume.

Soo what do we call it then if we can't/ shouldn't call it french tradition, school style or system. 

I am referring to playing cards insert as that is the level i am but i sincerly believe it leads to the subtle differences in the cards with spades and club on them.

 what do the cartomancers call the difference between the clubs and spades?

 

[katrinka]

6 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Guess it be like how they named the variants b117 instead of uk variant to move away from racial discrimination i assume.

 

It's not political correctness. France, Germany, and Belgium are all in Europe, obviously.
 

6 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

Soo what do we call it then if we can't/ shouldn't call it french tradition, school style or system. 

 

Credit the author, as already mentioned. Marco, Droesbeke, etc.
 

6 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

I am referring to playing cards insert as that is the level i am but i sincerly believe it leads to the subtle differences in the cards with spades and club on them.

 what do the cartomancers call the difference between the clubs and spades?

 

In Lenormand, or more generally? Not sure what you're asking here...

[HOLMES]

7 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

It's not political correctness. France, Germany, and Belgium are all in Europe, obviously.
 

 

Credit the author, as already mentioned. Marco, Droesbeke, etc.
 

 

In Lenormand, or more generally? Not sure what you're asking here...

 

First generally so can establish how it is normally done. I have no cartomancy books but one.  So i am assuming there is a standard term for the difference between the spades and clubs that is acceptable

Then it can be applied to lenormand i am hoping. 

 

No clue who marco, droesbroke is, for i don't have their books. So i can't credit them 

All i know is there is the difference between clubs and spades on how one can read with them  so it must be called something

[Raggydoll]

27 minutes ago, HOLMES said:

 

First generally so can establish how it is normally done. I have no cartomancy books but one.  So i am assuming there is a standard term for the difference between the spades and clubs that is acceptable

Then it can be applied to lenormand i am hoping. 

 

No clue who marco, droesbroke is, for i don't have their books. So i can't credit them 

All i know is there is the difference between clubs and spades on how one can read with them  so it must be called something

Clubs and spades are different suits. Like Katrinka I’m also not exactly sure if I’m getting what you mean, so bear with me 

 

[Guest]

Do you mean the suits’ regional names, e.g. German pattern or French/Anglo-American pattern, @HOLMES?
 

The “German” pattern can be referred to as either the Southern, Bavarian or Alemannic pattern.  The French pattern can be referred to as French or Parisian. The versions published by Bicycle, Goodall, et cetera, are Anglo-American.  
 

Technically, the Game of Hope showed the Bavarian pattern and the Franco-Bavarian pattern.  In the mid-18th century, German playing cards created a variant of the Parisian pattern.  This was popular in the Alsace region, et cetera.  You can see the roi de carreau wearing a feather/and or turban.

 

When I discuss the interpretative differences (such as Fox, Moon or Anchor for work and so on), I use the term model rather than tradition or school.  Generally, I am wary of the term tradition. I tend to say Marco, Treppner or Droesbeke model, et cetera.

 

 I’ve also always explained that their are different models in countries. Been doing that since 2011. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Guest

[Guest]

On 5/31/2021 at 10:56 PM, katrinka said:

Yep. We're still learning. We're always learning, rethinking, honing...you never get to the bottom of all of it.
If the subject could be exhausted, I'd have lost interest years ago.

Yes. Whenever I see someone saying they’re an expert, called or summoned or even intermediate/advanced I cringe.

 

I’ve known the Petit Lenormand longer than I have my two youngest siblings.  But I would never say I have X amount of years and therefore know best. Over time, I have refined and rethought things — the cards evolved, too. GTs do play out far quicker than back in 1990.  Nothing is static. It’s also why I no longer reference my background or teachers. You’re only as good as your last reading.

 

8 hours ago, katrinka said:

You have only to look at old  books and decks. So many of them were attributed to Mlle. Lenormand or the Roma. I suppose that sold better than "Two guys named Lenny and Charlie in a basement." 🤣

 

Lol. 

[Guest]

On 5/31/2021 at 11:56 PM, katrinka said:

look down just a bit, see a Ship there, and realize that the whole card is talking about something else...

 

Anotherone "bunked" up: "The picture does not matter, with Lenormand, it is all about the meaning you assign to the card."

Just recently an article promoted that.

Debunking time?

 

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

the cards evolved, too. GTs do play out far quicker than back in 1990

 

As in, "The time-frame covered by a reading of the same size became smaller?"

Did you experiment with setting the frame (to 3, 6, 12 Months) and observing the actual time it took for the events to take place?

I do believe that readers also evolve in their perception of the cards, yet I am unsure whether that is "stuff to talk about (here, in this thread)".

 

8 hours ago, HOLMES said:

 what do the cartomancers call the difference between the clubs and spades?

 

Are you perhaps referring to the "trouble suit"-thing? Like, "spades are bad", but with Lenormand, it is the clubs?

[HOLMES]

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

 

Are you perhaps referring to the "trouble suit"-thing? Like, "spades are bad", but with Lenormand, it is the clubs?

 

Yes, just want to get the terminology right. 

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

Yes. Whenever I see someone saying they’re an expert, called or summoned or even intermediate/advanced I cringe.

 

YES.
Really, we can only guess at how or why it works. How can anyone be an expert? */rhetorical*
 

Quote

I’ve known the Petit Lenormand longer than I have my two youngest siblings.  But I would never say I have X amount of years and therefore know best.

 

I'm not above saying I have X number of years on occasion. But that should never be cited as why our position is correct. Cite sources, present logic and reasoning, etc.
 

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, treppatey said:

Anotherone "bunked" up: "The picture does not matter, with Lenormand, it is all about the meaning you assign to the card."

Just recently an article promoted that.

Debunking time?

Sadly, some cannot see the contradiction. If it is all about the meaning you assign to the card, then one can attribute any arbitrary signification to a card.  If, however, one states that the Moon card signifies recognition we do so only because of the picture. The moon reflects the light of the sun.  If it is nearby, the reflected light illuminates you.  Far away, you remain in the shadow. Look at the cards: most of the imagery is dark, just a few objects are fully visible.
 

Similarly, if you say that the Fox describes someone with red hair where does it come from?  The picture. Why is the Cavalier a car or a bike?  The picture.

 

Knowing the essence or keywords is important. It is, after all, the first level of interpretation — the core essences and the systems of combinations. Going beyond that, however, one has to learn methods of refinement to bring in details. That goes beyond books and keywords/systems.  It is where progressed meanings, health associations, timing and descriptions come in which is done through stuff like direction and eikons.

 

Of course, that is just my opinion. I don’t know who wrote the article and they’re entitled to their view. It just seems contradictory.

 

4 hours ago, treppatey said:

As in, "The time-frame covered by a reading of the same size became smaller?"

Did you experiment with setting the frame (to 3, 6, 12 Months) and observing the actual time it took for the events to take place?

I do believe that readers also evolve in their perception of the cards, yet I am unsure whether that is "stuff to talk about (here, in this thread)".

 

Yes. Over time I observed that as the pace of life increased the events forecast took less and less time.   On average, a GT now covers 4-8 weeks’ time.  That is half the time it once forecast.  You will get hints of events further on but the main info is month or two. You can cast a second, or as I do, use a second draw.

 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

YES.
Really, we can only guess at how or why it works. How can anyone be an expert? */rhetorical*

Exactly.  The old astrologers wrestled with that. They settled to be students.  
 

2 hours ago, katrinka said:

I'm not above saying I have X number of years on occasion. But that should never be cited as why our position is correct. Cite sources, present logic and reasoning, etc.

Sometimes you have to say — especially when you’re explaining the need to study, or how cards’ evolve.  But so many people use it for Queen Bee status. 
 

One of the reasons I use references and cite sources is to offer a glance of the crooks and straits — hoping people will look them up. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Guest
Typ and clarification

[gregory]

13 hours ago, timtoldrum said:

But so many people use it for Queen Bee status. 

 

This - so very much. I can keep saying that as I know NOTHING much at all at all ! But even I know enough to see a few people who "know they know" and even I can see that they don't... (well, didn't; the two individuals who bugged me most have now vanished....)

Edited June 3, 2021 by gregory

[Guest]

On 6/2/2021 at 9:26 PM, timtoldrum said:

The picture.

 

Knowing the essence or keywords is important. It is, after all, the first level of interpretation — the core essences and the systems of combinations. Going beyond that, however, one has to learn methods of refinement to bring in details. That goes beyond books and keywords/systems.  It is where progressed meanings, health associations, timing and descriptions come in which is done through stuff like direction and eikons.

 

Of course, that is just my opinion. I don’t know who wrote the article and they’re entitled to their view. It just seems contradictory.

 

This certainly did the job. Thank you for your statement, @timtoldrum, no offense taken (presumably).

 

Moving on, this one:

On 6/2/2021 at 9:26 PM, timtoldrum said:

Over time I observed that as the pace of life increased the events forecast took less and less time.   On average, a GT now covers 4-8 weeks’ time.  That is half the time it once forecast.  You will get hints of events further on but the main info is month or two. You can cast a second, or as I do, use a second draw.

 

I honestly found myself unable to wrap my head around the second draw, because: How?

After filling the table, so to speak, the pile/pack is empty - do you put them back in order and do a second cut (akin to Treppners Method of rearrangement), do you utilise a second pack of cards, or is it something else entirely?

 

The first sentence of the section quoted above did lead to another possible "bunker":

"The cards foretell destiny, even the entirety of a human beeings life!"

There are plenty such stories to be found - did they hold true in times of old?

Do they still hold true?

Or is a debunk appropriate?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

This certainly did the job. Thank you for your statement, @timtoldrum, no offense taken (pre

Certainly I took no offence.  The idea that the pictures have no relevance is ingrained. It stems from a misunderstanding of advice given early on (such as you don’t read PL like Tarot).  All of these titbits became exaggerated.  
 

Lenormand interpretation is done in layers.  The first stage focuses on essence and order. But if you stop there, it will be general and vague.  Yes, you will meet a man.  But when?  Where? What will he like?  

 

That’s when descriptions and timings come in to play.  Descriptions come from pictures — the bear is big, muscular and hair colour comes from the card.  Timing comes from the pictures 90% of the time (Stars = night, &c).
 

This stage of interpretation seems to be ignored — particularly because it relies on a good, clear deck.

 

2 hours ago, treppatey said:

I honestly found myself unable to wrap my head around the second draw, because: How?

After filling the table, so to speak, the pile/pack is empty - do you put them back in order and do a second cut (akin to Treppners Method of rearrangement), do you utilise a second pack of cards, or is it something else entirely?

 

When reading, I start with the Grand Tableau. I do not divide it into the past, the present and the future. Instead I read it as the present and near future using the master cards and division.

 

Once that is done I will gather the cards and reshuffle.  Depending on the client/GT I use either the wheel (focus on a topic) or the game of destiny (further general forecast) for a second draw.  These are two spreads taught by Mary Marco.  
 

Occasionally, I might use the coven of thirteen which was designed and taught by Basil Ivan Rakoczi and later popularised by the late Dawn Jackson (Hedgewytchery, Rakoczi also gave the court cards’ names such as the devouring sun and corn dolly which Jackson also appropriated). 
 

It takes about 40-60 minutes to do 2-3 spreads plus follow up questions.  
 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

Descriptions come from pictures

1 hour ago, timtoldrum said:

This stage of interpretation seems to be ignored — particularly because it relies on a good, clear deck.

 

Is it possible that these descriptions vary depending on the deck used?

For example, the Stork of Brepols always reminds me of dawn and dusk (apart from Coffin/Sun and vice versa), because of the colour of the sky.

The Stork(s) of the Blue Owl would then not have such a feature, for the sky behind gives no particular expression apart from "not night".

 

The "second draw" has now certainly become clear.

 

Also:

4 hours ago, treppatey said:

The first sentence of the section quoted above did lead to another possible "bunker":

"The cards foretell destiny, even the entirety of a human beeings life!"

There are plenty such stories to be found - did they hold true in times of old?

Do they still hold true?

Or is a debunk appropriate?

 

Am I safe to assume that this one is viewed as "beeing sufficiently covered by the answers already provided"?

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, treppatey said:

Is it possible that these descriptions vary depending on the deck used?

Yes. If one was reading with the Schmid or the Gilded Reverie Lenormands, the Bear would indicate blonde or white hair rather than brown. Both have a polar bear. 
 

There are Lenormands with red lilies and brown foxes (Starslunder). Based on my own experience and experimenting, these can change a description.

 

13 minutes ago, treppatey said:

Also:

4 hours ago, treppatey said:

The first sentence of the section quoted above did lead to another possible "bunker":

"The cards foretell destiny, even the entirety of a human beeings life!"

There are plenty such stories to be found - did they hold true in times of old?

Do they still hold true?

Or is a debunk appropriate?

 

Am I safe to assume that this one is viewed as "beeing sufficiently covered by the answers already provided"?

It is complicated. You can cast GTs for someone deceased and it often describes their life. I’ve done it for famous people from history, and for clients wanting to know something about a dead relative. Each reader will have their own way of reading it. 

 

Consequently, you should be able to do it with a living person. As a palmist, I would be far likelier to use someone’s hand if there in person.
 

 

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

It is complicated. You can cast GTs for someone deceased and it often describes their life.

 

I assume a part of the complication comes from "what is written"; the live of the deceased, obviously, alas, a life yet to be lived?

Discussions on that have proven to accelerate the heat in the rooms where they took place.

 

16 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

Consequently, you should be able to do it with a living person.

 

Such is the workings of applied logic, yes.

Perhaps "what is fashionable" also has a word herein...

 

Onwards to:

19 minutes ago, timtoldrum said:

As a palmist, I would be far likelier to use someone’s hand if there in person.

 

May I inquire about the reasoning behind said likeliness?

I assume it has something to do with the threads of life presented on that hand, combined with "beeing in touch with that ones destiny", there in the person, the focal point of the story to be read, so to say - I might be off the rails here by a fair bit, hence the question.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, treppatey said:

I assume a part of the complication comes from "what is written"; the live of the deceased, obviously, alas, a life yet to be lived?

Discussions on that have proven to accelerate the heat in the rooms where they took place.

Yes. You get the same issue with birth charts of “celebrities.” 

 

56 minutes ago, treppatey said:

May I inquire about the reasoning behind said likeliness?

I assume it has something to do with the threads of life presented on that hand, combined with "beeing in touch with that ones destiny", there in the person, the focal point of the story to be read, so to say - I might be off the rails here by a fair bit, hence the question.

Generally speaking, I have palmistry and (traditional) astrology far better for long term forecast. I do not profess to know why, but our palm and birth chart seem to carry the threads of fate and (as we age) our journeying on those threads.
 

In contrast I find cards far better for more immediate and short term forecast. I tell my students that a GT is a snapshot of threads. The palm the full tapestry.

 

So if a person is there — in front of you — there palms will give you the broad outline of their life. 

[Guest]

On 6/4/2021 at 9:56 PM, timtoldrum said:

Yes. You get the same issue with birth charts of “celebrities.” 

 

It is a shame, and it must not be, for much of an interesting topic could be explored with a certain amount of level-headedness.

 

In retrospection, a finding occured which might be interesting for further elaboration:

On 6/4/2021 at 5:56 PM, timtoldrum said:

Timing comes from the pictures 90% of the time (Stars = night, &c).

This stage of interpretation seems to be ignored — particularly because it relies on a good, clear deck.

 

When looking for what makes a good deck for a reader, one often came across the phrase "A good deck is one which resonates with you".

Does the clarity mentioned in the quote above relay to the same sentiment?

 

By the way, thank you @timtoldrum, for your answer on the differences/specialities of the methods (palmistry, astrology, cards).

 

To further the topic of this thread: Most of the "bunkers" seem to be explored by now, but one is still lingering. It might actually not so much be a misconception but more of a clash of opinion, yet something seemed to be off, I can not quiet put my finger on it but will expose the issue nonetheless:

It is the "intuition-thingy".

The clash is obvious: All intuition, or none at all.

Something seems to be missing in between.

If a debunk could go there, it would be much appreciated.

 

[TheLoracular]

As someone who is an outsider to Lenormand looking in, I found this a ~really~ helpful thread that I will want to come back to and read again when I do start learning this form of cartomancy.  

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, treppatey said:

When looking for what makes a good deck for a reader, one often came across the phrase "A good deck is one which resonates with you".

Does the clarity mentioned in the quote above relay to the same sentiment?

 

I can't speak for @timtoldrum. But I do want to say that "resonates", at least in the sense that the word is tossed around these days, is pretty meaningless.
Clearness, in Lenormand, is measurable. The cards can be quickly located in a GT, or they can't. It's easy to distinguish them from each other, or it isn't. The bit of the Key clearly faces the right or left, etc.

People are using "the deck that resonates with you" in much the same way that they use "Get the deck that calls to you." It's utterly subjective, and it might just mean that they like the art, or the theme. It doesn't mean it's a good reading deck at all.

A hardcore Jackson Pollock fan might be thrilled with a Pollock Lenormand and say it "resonated." But it would be a terrible reading deck. 😉

 

4 hours ago, treppatey said:

To further the topic of this thread: Most of the "bunkers" seem to be explored by now, but one is still lingering. It might actually not so much be a misconception but more of a clash of opinion, yet something seemed to be off, I can not quiet put my finger on it but will expose the issue nonetheless:

It is the "intuition-thingy".

The clash is obvious: All intuition, or none at all.

Something seems to be missing in between.

If a debunk could go there, it would be much appreciated.

I want to say first that intuition is not psychism and intuition in Lenormand doesn't come "from the aether.". When you know a subject very well, your brain can make all the connections instantaneously. That's why you don't have to stop and think while you're driving: "Now I am going to let up on the gas, now I am going to step on the clutch and brake..." If you need to make a sudden stop, it just happens, like a reflex.

New drivers don't have this ability yet. Neither do new readers. It comes with a lot of time and practice. This is the intuition that comes into play in Lenormand reading.

But again, the word itself is misused. Some use it as a term for looking at a card and making up a story about something in the picture: "The dog is lying down. I feel a sense of exhaustion from this card..." That's anathema to the Lenormand method.

Intuition, in the true sense, is part of reading Lenormand, along with card essence and context. But there is no "all or none."

 

[gregory]

11 hours ago, katrinka said:

But again, the word itself is misused. Some use it as a term for looking at a card and making up a story about something in the picture: "The dog is lying down. I feel a sense of exhaustion from this card..." That's anathema to the Lenormand method.

 

This - so very much. (And it is what I tend to do with Tarot, though not quite that simplistically.) And it's what I am acutely aware is really important to avoid with Lenormand - which is why I do have issues trying to get into it. But at least I KNOW. So many people come in and say yeah but that poor tired dog.

 

Lenormand is (I think) more like a dictionary, and then you get to put sentences together in how you lay those words out. (And that totally fits; when I read a dictionary, I always end up reading all those interesting words next to the ones I looked up, and... . I'm doomed here....)

[Sadewa]

This thread is really helpful.

2 hours ago, gregory said:

Lenormand is (I think) more like a dictionary, and then you get to put sentences together in how you lay those words out. (And that totally fits; when I read a dictionary, I always end up reading all those interesting words next to the ones I looked up, and... . I'm doomed here....)

I have to say that I feel the same. Lenormand, like many other systems, resembles a foreign language that requires study and practice to "crack the code".  I find it indeed crucial to understand the cards' essence applied in context, rather than free-style first impression.

 I assume this would also solve the problem of " Card A means X and Card B means Y" recitation in actual readings. It would also prevent students from quoting reliable sources out of context, resulting in problematic interpretation. I recently came across a reader who told me that Rana George mentioned the Coffin can mean boxes and other square things and smart phones are also square things so the Coffin in a relationship reading means that communication with their phones is really important...... I didn't know how to reply and had to virtually shrug and walk away.

 

[gregory]

33 minutes ago, Sadewa said:

I didn't know how to reply and had to virtually shrug and walk away.

 

The only thing to do in a situation like that !

[katrinka]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

This - so very much. (And it is what I tend to do with Tarot, though not quite that simplistically.) And it's what I am acutely aware is really important to avoid with Lenormand - which is why I do have issues trying to get into it. But at least I KNOW.

 

And you know the rote meanings, the ideas that the Tarot is trying to communicate. That's very different than looking at the Hanged Man and saying "He's been caught in one of those snare traps, this is a card of things that happen quickly, suddenly..." I don't see you as part of the "Books are bad!!!!!" brigade. 😁

 

So you already get the core concept that cards have, for want of a better term, definitions. A lot like words. It's just tighter with Lenormand than it tends to be with Tarot. The individual cards are components, rather than being scenes made up of various components.
 

Quote

Lenormand is (I think) more like a dictionary, and then you get to put sentences together in how you lay those words out.

 

Kind of like that, or a rebus...

I'm a little hesitant to use this example lest people think it's all about keywords rather than essence, but sometimes it can be helpful to think of the cards as 36 rolodexes. 😁

"Rider: My car? Probably not in this context; paramour, nope; news - ah, there we go..."

 

But the linguistic stuff is extrapolated from the essence. If you have the essence, you can go from there and sweep all of those clunky rolodexes off the table! 🤣

 

Edited June 10, 2021 by katrinka

[katrinka]

4 hours ago, Sadewa said:

I recently came across a reader who told me that Rana George mentioned the Coffin can mean boxes and other square things and smart phones are also square things so the Coffin in a relationship reading means that communication with their phones is really important...... I didn't know how to reply and had to virtually shrug and walk away.

Maybe like this? 😁