Sexist tropes in tarot explanations

[Emporerinthestreets]

I challenge anyone to give me a distinction between the king of cups and queen of cups without using sexist tropes to describe the queen of cups. i have scoured books and the internet to help me understand queen of cups and no explanation sits well with me. If we are going off of divine feminine characteristics, feminine is associated with receiving and masculine giving. So then why is it that everyone wants to assign this selfless emotional caretaker role like she only exists in service to others when the king of cups is just this self sufficient beacon of emotional intelligence. Who is she outside of the emotional labor she provides? I even saw one person say the queen of cups is a little “unstable” and “crazy” like what’s wrong with everyone?!! Perhaps we can work together to mend this archetype

[fire cat pickles]

3 hours ago, Emporerinthestreets said:

o then why is it that everyone wants to assign this selfless emotional caretaker role like she only exists in service to others when the king of cups is just this self sufficient beacon of emotional intelligence. Who is she outside of the emotional labor she provides? I even saw one person say the queen of cups is a little “unstable” and “crazy” like what’s wrong with everyone?!! Perhaps we can work together to mend this archetype

This is a loaded statement. It comes across as argumentative and generalizing. Not everyone does this. You go on to say "you even saw one person" and then in the same breath say "what's wrong with everyone", so plainly it isn't everyone...

 

But there are positive and negative associations with every court, and the case is not dissimilar with the KoC and QoC. It is a case of stereotypes, but we are dealing with a deck (as most decks we are dealing with are Golden Dawn-based) that was formulated over 100 years ago. But with this shortcoming notwithstanding, there is a work around with these divine characteristics nevertheless.

 

She is in control, one might say she is "the boss". And there is power in this. Let's allow her her due. Her control is internal, much like the reproductive organs of a female. In the extreme, she is the manipulator, the dominatrix, the "Karen", if you will. The norm for her is the lover, the caregiver, the mother goddess archetype. The King's control is external, like the male reproductive organ. In the extreme, it is toxic masculinity. He is also "the boss", but this, of course comes across as the control freak and the emotional abuser. The norm for him is the protector, the provider, and the castle-builder.

 

Either of these cards can represent male or female and anyone in between. We are not locked into a specific gender. The same can be said of archetypes in tarot. Of course this is only my experience with tarot. Others may have a different point of view.

 

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by fire cat pickles

[Guest]

Not everyone does it.  That is an unfair generalisation.
 

I do not associate the queen with any of those traits. To me she is a woman and the king a man. They differ only in gender.  Cups are family, lovers and friends.  

[fire cat pickles]

1 minute ago, timtoldrum said:

Not everyone does it.  That is an unfair generalisation.
 

I do not associate the queen with any of those traits. To me she is a woman and the king a man. They differ only in gender.  Cups are family, lovers and friends.  

I agree. I should clarify my "negative associations" statement with this: They would need to be supported by spread position, other cards in the throw, reversals, elemental dignities (e.g. being ill-dignified), etc.

 

 

[gregory]

I don't even always associate court cards with people, never mind personalty traits.

 

This seems to me to be the view of one angry individual.

 

OK here's a pair I just found on line without even trying very hard, and which does NOT fit what the OP says:

 

Ultimately though, these external, visible qualities emanate from a profound inner place. The Queen of Cups knows himself. He knows, like the Queen of Pentacles, how deeply he is connected to the whole Universe, and is grounded in his emotional life. It may not always be steady, but he owns it with passion. He knows how to listen. He knows how to tune out the noise and hear what his heart has to say in any situation. This card encourages you to draw on that power and listen deep.

 

The corresponding king is: 

 

They may keep a close rein on their feelings – the King of Cups can represent a person who does not see open-hearted – and don’t like to feel vulnerable. They tend to give the impression of being emotionally ‘sorted’ and are not easily swayed in emotional matters. In the most harmful expression of this king, this may represent a person who has built up too-rigid boundaries around their heart. They ensure they are ‘in control’ and may have become cut-off. It can be hard to know what the King of Cups is really feeling because they maintain a tight control.

 

I'm OK with those. Maybe just think about it harder for yourself, @Emporerinthestreets

Edited May 31, 2021 by gregory

[TheLoracular]

3 hours ago, Emporerinthestreets said:

I challenge anyone to give me a distinction between the king of cups and queen of cups without using sexist tropes to describe the queen of cups.

I work heavily with the sixteen personality types of the MBTI and the court cards.  I look at them not simply as people but that we have all 16 archetypes (Court or MBTI) within us and can learn how to draw on the one that is most useful for the situation at hand.  

So, using the Linda Gail Walters attributions and definitions from 16 Personalities? 

The King of Cups = A Protagonist (ENFJ) [who] is a person with the Extraverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Judging personality traits. These warm, forthright types love helping others, and they tend to have strong ideas and values. They back their perspective with the creative energy to achieve their goals.

The Queen of Cups = An Advocate (INFJ) is someone with the Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Judging personality traits. They tend to approach life with deep thoughtfulness and imagination. Their inner vision, personal values, and a quiet, principled version of humanism guide them in all things.

What distinguishes the two personality types to me is that while both cards represent very similar concepts, the King is more about taking actions and making changes like the Magician while the Queen is more contemplative, introspective and thinking out the thoughts that will lead to actions like the Hanged Man.

I hope that helps. 

[Raggydoll]

In my own deck I have changed the Queens into witches and the kings into elders, and they all happen to be female because I chose to make this deck a women-only deck. But they could just as well have been male or non-binary etc. My court ranks are about roles and personal traits, a person’s genitalia or sexual identity is not especially relevant to my interpretation of the courts. I think that a Queen can have any gender, really. I think that most of us probably have the entire rank of courts in us, at least to some degree. And I don’t see words such as ‘caring’ ‘sensitive’ or ‘intuitive’ as sexist. I have both male and female and non binary friends that personifies those traits. 

[DanielJUK]

I totally see the Queen of Cups as the court card in tarot who most represents me as a feminine man, it's my archetype. This doesn't mean I just service others with my compassion and empathy. All the Cups suit are compassionate and empathetic, they are ruled by their hearts, just the King and Queen are at a level where they are able to control it. I love Joan Bunning's learn tarot take on the Courts, the Queen is an inward energy, an inner soothing gentleness and the King is an outward energy, they turn it into action, the Queen would think and feel. They are different types of energy but both are compassionate and sensitive and loving. The King of Cups action becomes a sort of diplomat type archetype role, negotiating and keeping the peace from that Cups energy, where as the Queen might be a counsellor or therapist. Love your different personalities post about their differences @TheLoracular

 

I don't believe it's sexist, no one is saying the Queen represents all women or one type of feminine energy or a stereotype of feminity, just that it's a compassionate energy from emotions and the heart. Also that theory seems to mean that Queens are less than Kings but they sit together at the throne. They are different archetypes like apples and pears. This Queen is also psychic and intune with their subconscious, they love the beauty of life and art and creative areas and look for the spiritual deep meanings that satisfy them about life.

 

The court people are complex and we are complex as humans, so perhaps no card represents everything about a person. But I love the Queen of Cups qualities that I have, it means I can give good divination readings, I can empathise with who I am reading for and connect to my subconscious for the reading. I can go and look at art or see live music and really feel emotionally affected by it. Sometimes though I am so ruled my emotions that I forget logic and rationality and if I am making a decision I really have to balance that Cups energy, it can be dangerous to just go with how you feel. She is more complex as an archetype than just tropes. But as Raggy says there is nothing wrong with being caring or compassionate.

[Emporerinthestreets]

On 5/31/2021 at 7:27 AM, TheLoracular said:

I work heavily with the sixteen personality types of the MBTI and the court cards.  I look at them not simply as people but that we have all 16 archetypes (Court or MBTI) within us and can learn how to draw on the one that is most useful for the situation at hand.  

So, using the Linda Gail Walters attributions and definitions from 16 Personalities? 

The King of Cups = A Protagonist (ENFJ) [who] is a person with the Extraverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Judging personality traits. These warm, forthright types love helping others, and they tend to have strong ideas and values. They back their perspective with the creative energy to achieve their goals.

The Queen of Cups = An Advocate (INFJ) is someone with the Introverted, Intuitive, Feeling, and Judging personality traits. They tend to approach life with deep thoughtfulness and imagination. Their inner vision, personal values, and a quiet, principled version of humanism guide them in all things.

What distinguishes the two personality types to me is that while both cards represent very similar concepts, the King is more about taking actions and making changes like the Magician while the Queen is more contemplative, introspective and thinking out the thoughts that will lead to actions like the Hanged Man.

I hope that helps. 

This is a much more helpful distinction than anything I’ve encountered thus far thank you for your wonderful insight

[Emporerinthestreets]

I’m so happy to hear that many of you have found explanations of the queen of cups that sufficed for you. I can’t relate but good for you

Edited June 4, 2021 by Emporerinthestreets

[Emporerinthestreets]

On 5/31/2021 at 6:48 AM, fire cat pickles said:

This is a loaded statement. It comes across as argumentative and generalizing. Not everyone does this. You go on to say "you even saw one person" and then in the same breath say "what's wrong with everyone", so plainly it isn't everyone...

 

On 5/31/2021 at 7:02 AM, gregory said:

Maybe just think about it harder for yourself, @Emporerinthestreets

 

On 5/31/2021 at 6:52 AM, timtoldrum said:

Not everyone does it.  That is an unfair generalisation.

 

Didn’t know my first post was gonna be so controversial yet so brave 

[Emporerinthestreets]

On 5/31/2021 at 2:40 PM, DanielJUK said:

The King of Cups action becomes a sort of diplomat type archetype role, negotiating and keeping the peace from that Cups energy, where as the Queen might be a counsellor or therapist.

Why wouldn’t the queen of cups be positioned as a diplomat instead

[gregory]

3 hours ago, Emporerinthestreets said:

Why wouldn’t the queen of cups be positioned as a diplomat instead

 

I wouldn't position any card as always being the same - so sure, in context, she could be. No one card always says the same thing.

[Raggydoll]

@Emporerinthestreets The topic you chose isn't in any way problematic -  we welcome this type of progressive discussions that can challenge stale archetypes. But they way you phrased it made it seem like if you were trying to create a heated debate. You used expressions such as "I challenge you" and you also wrote with the assumption that people here would have sexist ideas or that they would have ever classified the queen of cups as "crazy". Which is quite interesting since you are brand new to this site. So how would you know if people here are anything like what you described or if our views on this archetype needs mending? 🙂 I assume your post was based on things you have observed elsewhere. And that brings me to another point. Forums in general are different than commercial social media platforms, like facebook. Our forum sets itself apart even more so, I think. We care a great deal about the atmosphere. So if you really didn't anticipate that what you wrote could possible create tension, then I suggest that from now on, simply read through what you intend to post a second time before you press submit. If you are unsure as to what is okay to post then please do read our rules. Finally - welcome to the forum!! 😀

[Guest]

On 5/31/2021 at 4:02 AM, Emporerinthestreets said:

I challenge anyone to give me a distinction between the king of cups and queen of cups without using sexist tropes to describe the queen of cups. i have scoured books and the internet to help me understand queen of cups and no explanation sits well with me. If we are going off of divine feminine characteristics, feminine is associated with receiving and masculine giving. So then why is it that everyone wants to assign this selfless emotional caretaker role like she only exists in service to others when the king of cups is just this self sufficient beacon of emotional intelligence. Who is she outside of the emotional labor she provides? I even saw one person say the queen of cups is a little “unstable” and “crazy” like what’s wrong with everyone?!! Perhaps we can work together to mend this archetype

 

This really resonated with me.  I'm a new tarot reader, and only started reading tarot last fall.  The whole time, I've been checking tarot books out from the library and looking at people's takes on card meanings online, but I don't like how most people explain the court cards.  People seem to be upset at OP for the phrasing, but the only tarot books I've ever found that don't use sexist stereotypes for the court cards are Modern Tarot, by Michelle Tea and Queering the Tarot, by Cassandra Snow.  That's out of just one or two dozen from my local library, but still... A lot of writers will say that the kings and queens are just archetypes, and can be male or female, but that isn't as helpful as it sounds, since that's how I read cards anyway.  What really bothers me is that even though the cards are all archetypes and can apply to people of any gender, the queens all have explanations that are full of gendered stereotypes.  There's nothing wrong with being caring, supportive and emotional, but--it's hard for me to explain, and I really, really want to explain this, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be writing such a long-winded post--the queens are all described in a specific, very gendered, stereotypical way.  Kings are so often described as active and extroverted, queens are often described as passive and introverted. 

 

We don't all need to be action movie heroes or anything ridiculous like that, so being passive and introverted is fine.  That's not what I object so strongly to.  As an example, if a movie has only one character who is a minority, and that character is a villain, people would say the movie is problematic.  If a TV show only has 2 female characters with recurring roles and both of those characters are 2dimenstional "nagging wife" types, people would say the show is sort of sexist.  That's how I feel the about the court cards. Only 4 queens, and they're all...

 

The 2 books that worked for me, Modern Tarot and Queering the Tarot, have some really good explanations for the court cards.  I also try add on my own meanings, treat court cards like characters I am trying to write about, invent personalities for them--The Queen of Cups as a philosopher queen, often lost in the contemplation of art and beauty, things like that. Whatever works.

[katrinka]

What we're looking at with the Courts is something that was created hundreds of years ago, based on european royalty and nobility, and yes, they're gendered.
"Gendered" and "sexist" are not interchangeable. "Gendered" applies different characteristics and roles to men and women. There is nothing inherently wrong with being a caretaker, `feminine, receptive, etc. "Sexist", OTOH, implies that women are somehow lesser. It's not the same thing.

And yes, as already mentioned, men can take on traditionally feminine roles and vice versa. The issues with "gendered" come in when everyone is expected to conform to the roles of their sex at birth, but that isn't happening here. 

[gregory]

Too right.

 

Sounds off topic, but I will never forget the day a neighbour came round when I (I am a granny, btw, despite my name here) was up to my elbows in grease taking our VW Beetle motor apart; he wanted to talk to my partner - and was gobsmacked when I said he was in the kitchen making  bread with our little daughters. Which of us was the King and which the Queen ? If either was either one....

Edited June 4, 2021 by gregory

[Raggydoll]

@jadegreen Welcome to the forum! Thanks for the book suggestions 😀

[Emporerinthestreets]

4 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

@Emporerinthestreets The topic you chose isn't in any way problematic -  we welcome this type of progressive discussions that can challenge stale archetypes. But they way you phrased it made it seem like if you were trying to create a heated debate. You used expressions such as "I challenge you" and you also wrote with the assumption that people here would have sexist ideas 

I never said people here would have sexist ideas. I did assume however that people would understand that when I said “everyone” I wasn’t referring to everyone in the whole wide world especially not everyone in the forum since I’m new here. I was anticipating a reality that it would be challenging due to the fact that this has been my experience with all of the popular tarot books and websites I’ve encountered. I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume none of the people who took issue with my post has authored those. It has also unfortunately literally been a challenge for people in the forum because so far only (2) people have given me a helpful distinction without invalidating my experience. People are angrily proclaiming that my post doesn’t apply to them. If it doesn’t apply there’s no need to take it personally. I’m a fire sign I like a spirited debate but not hurt feelings. You not being able to handle how I worded my post isn’t me “breaking the rules.” Don’t hate the player hate the game 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Emporerinthestreets

[Emporerinthestreets]

3 hours ago, jadegreen said:

 

This really resonated with me.  I'm a new tarot reader, and only started reading tarot last fall.  The whole time, I've been checking tarot books out from the library and looking at people's takes on card meanings online, but I don't like how most people explain the court cards.  People seem to be upset at OP for the phrasing, but the only tarot books I've ever found that don't use sexist stereotypes for the court cards are Modern Tarot, by Michelle Tea and Queering the Tarot, by Cassandra Snow.  That's out of just one or two dozen from my local library, but still... A lot of writers will say that the kings and queens are just archetypes, and can be male or female, but that isn't as helpful as it sounds, since that's how I read cards anyway.  What really bothers me is that even though the cards are all archetypes and can apply to people of any gender, the queens all have explanations that are full of gendered stereotypes.  There's nothing wrong with being caring, supportive and emotional, but--it's hard for me to explain, and I really, really want to explain this, obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be writing such a long-winded post--the queens are all described in a specific, very gendered, stereotypical way.  Kings are so often described as active and extroverted, queens are often described as passive and introverted. 

 

We don't all need to be action movie heroes or anything ridiculous like that, so being passive and introverted is fine.  That's not what I object so strongly to.  As an example, if a movie has only one character who is a minority, and that character is a villain, people would say the movie is problematic.  If a TV show only has 2 female characters with recurring roles and both of those characters are 2dimenstional "nagging wife" types, people would say the show is sort of sexist.  That's how I feel the about the court cards. Only 4 queens, and they're all...

 

The 2 books that worked for me, Modern Tarot and Queering the Tarot, have some really good explanations for the court cards.  I also try add on my own meanings, treat court cards like characters I am trying to write about, invent personalities for them--The Queen of Cups as a philosopher queen, often lost in the contemplation of art and beauty, things like that. Whatever works.

 

Beautiful and refreshing response!!! Thank you so much for the book suggestions, also for validating my experience while further explaining what I mean so perhaps my post will be more understandable

[Rupicapra]

7 minutes ago, Emporerinthestreets said:

People are angrily proclaiming that my post doesn’t apply to them. 

I can't see any angry responses here. You asked for opinions and people replied. But there is no anger in any post replying to you. Just statements. 

[Emporerinthestreets]

1 minute ago, Rupicapra said:

I can't see any angry responses here. You asked for opinions and people replied. But there is no anger in any post replying to you. Just statements. 

Perhaps “upset” or “disgruntled” would be a better vocabulary word for your liking 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Emporerinthestreets said:

 

 

 

Didn’t know my first post was gonna be so controversial yet so brave 

I do not think that there is anything particularly controversial in your post or brave. It just sounded aggressive and an oversimplification. You said you’ve scoured books and internet sites, but which ones? Was they based on the Smith-Waite or Golden Dawn?  What about the Marseille tarots or even classical cartomancy?
 

For me, I do not associate any inherent personality traits with the court cards.  Their character and temperament comes from the cards either side.  I just use the suits — cups are partners, family and friends.  So the Queen is a woman in these areas.
 

There is greater diversity, which I think you could discover if you looked.

[gregory]

I''m not upset, or even disgruntled. I do profoundly disagree though.

 

But it's never wise to say "everyone" .It is inevitably wrong, unless you just say something like "everyone has to breathe.".

[Emporerinthestreets]

Just now, timtoldrum said:

I do not think that there is anything particularly controversial in your post or brave. It just sounded aggressive and an oversimplification. You said you’ve scoured books and internet sites, but which ones? Was they based on the Smith-Waite or Golden Dawn?  What about the Marseille tarots or even classical cartomancy?
 

For me, I do not associate any inherent personality traits with the court cards.  Their character and temperament comes from the cards either side.  I just use the suits — cups are partners, family and friends.  So the Queen is a woman in these areas.
 

There is greater diversity, which I think you could discover if you looked.

“So controversial yet so brave” is an Eric Andre quote said sarcastically. I don’t think it’s controversial or brave either it’s a pretty mundane observation.  Actually I have scoured books and the internet for a satisfying explanation but to no avail which is the reason for coming to a tarot forum in the first place