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A further observation on queen of cups


Emporerinthestreets

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Emporerinthestreets

Looking for a further explanation on queen of cups, a question I posted earlier but am rephrasing. Does anyone have any distinction between the king and queen of cups that could perhaps go beyond describing the queen as soft and the king as strong and diplomatic. I’d like to stray from those connotations and find them insufficient to put it mildly. Any and all deeper interpretations are welcome! 🤠😻💃🏻💫

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AJ-ish/Sharyn

Based on years of readings, Queen of Cups

Iron hand in a velvet glove

Female Pope

Woman above reproach (Etteilla)

Stealing the king's pomp

Not who she could be, envious of the Queen of Wands

Weighed down by responsibilities

Traditional actions, but based on her own viewpoint of tradition

Fruition of responsibility

Ill-directed love

self-directed love

gracious and courteous

both loves and hates with passion

Ability to cope

Creature of compassion and empathy 

Organizes and directs the conflicting feelings and shattering emotions

Intuitive and sensitive

Stable emotions, grown from the instability of the minors

Drama Queen

 

Before I take the time to reflect on the King, Each card is only a reflection of its place in a spread and the query asked

The keywords soft and strong for two different cards are useless, unless those two cards come up together and make sense in a reading. The courts reflect the spectrum of human nature, colored by the deck you are using. 

 

Perhaps you'd expand on your two keywords and why you think they sum up two wildly diverse cards? 

 

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AJ-ish/Sharyn

Based on years of reading, King of Cups

Confident fop

Total control of emotions, or lack of control

Ruthless

Merciless, consumed by emotions

Dedicated, devoted, thoughtful

Leads with his heart rather than brain

The hand that reaches out to connect the other kings

Recognises success at anything comes from within

Cup full/cup empty

Our subconscious, working on problems while we do something else. 

Able to cry in a movie, laugh at a stupid joke

Visionary with higher principles

Knows his emotions are part of the problem, part of the solution

 

 Each card is only a reflection of its place in a spread and the query asked. 

The courts reflect the spectrum of human nature, colored by the deck you are using. 

 

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A way to look at the “Queen of Cups” is Water of Water. A way to look at the “King of Cups” is Fire of Water.

 

People may interpret what that means in different ways, but Water of Water may mean something like an infinite reflecting pool. Awareness of the subconscious. Ever-shifting emotions. Someone enveloped in the watery element—which can mean loads of different things, depending on the context of the reading. Water can refer to drink (as in alcohol), sexual fluids, emotions, or even spirituality (the courts of the water/Cups element can represent clergy).

 

Fire of Water can likewise be subjected to many interpretations. Fire vaporizes water, but can also be seen as “freeing” it and creating Air. So the King of Cups archetype can be seen as contextualizing emotion into thought. Melding opposites (fire and water) in order to create balance, harmony. So Fire of Water is more about reconciliation and Water of Water is about “water at its wateriest.” 
 

I hope it makes sense to read this because typing elements over and over again makes it feel as though meaning is being eroded, lol.

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Unpopular opinion time: The Queen of Cups doesn't need to be the soft one and the King of Cups Doesn't have t be the strong one.  They're both soft, and both strong in ways that our society doesn't usually recognize. The Court cards are just a bunch of people with titles.  The kings and queens are just a bunch of people sitting in chairs.  It's up to the individual reader what to make of it.

 

The court cards have explanations made up over a century ago that have to do with gender essentialism and archaic hierarchies.  People use this as an excuse to keep using the same old explanations "well, it's old."  Okay it's old, so what are you doing to subvert it?   It's possible to make up our own meanings for the court cards that reflect our understanding of the world today.

 

And I actually have to do this, to make room for myself to exist.  If people like the traditional meanings for court cards and it works for them, that's fine.  But I need to do things my own way.  Sometimes it feels like my new hobby kind of hates me, lol.

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fire cat pickles
10 minutes ago, jadegreen said:

Unpopular opinion time: The Queen of Cups doesn't need to be the soft one and the King of Cups Doesn't have t be the strong one.  They're both soft, and both strong in ways that our society doesn't usually recognize. The Court cards are just a bunch of people with titles.  The kings and queens are just a bunch of people sitting in chairs.  It's up to the individual reader what to make of it.

 

The court cards have explanations made up over a century ago that have to do with gender essentialism and archaic hierarchies.  People use this as an excuse to keep using the same old explanations "well, it's old."  Okay it's old, so what are you doing to subvert it?   It's possible to make up our own meanings for the court cards that reflect our understanding of the world today.

 

And I actually have to do this, to make room for myself to exist.  If people like the traditional meanings for court cards and it works for them, that's fine.  But I need to do things my own way.  Sometimes it feels like my new hobby kind of hates me, lol.

This. Very well put.

 

We have what we have to work with. A very old deck that defies our modern sensibilities in so many ways. But it's what we have to work with. Reinterpret, subvert. Great strategy. Another strategy could be to look at them simply as astrological. (The Queen of Cups is actually my Significator in my readings and usually represents me--cismale, firefighter me, if you want talk about  a further observation on the QoC)

 

Or, we can find decks that redraw and redefine it, and that's fine, too.

 

Edited by fire cat pickles
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There have been matrilineal societies where traditionally feminine roles are valued. Raising babies, shaping the minds of children and bringing forth the future are important functions, arguably more vital than playing politics and being "strong and diplomatic". There is a trend these days that devalues the old feminine roles, especially in movies. A lot of them push the idea that we should all strive to be Boss Ladies, and denigrate women who don't have these particular ambitions. That's every bit as sexist as the old tropes - moreso, really. It says we're nothing if we're not "masculine", and it strikes me as a form of internalized misogyny

The roles aren't inherently superior or inferior, they're just different. The world needs people doing ALL of these things, and it should make no difference who does them - if hubby watches the kids while his partner is out driving a forklift, nobody should have an issue with that. The problems come in when people are pushed into roles. All of this "femininity is sexist" stuff feels like a manipulative attempt at pushing. It elevates both men and women in traditionally masculine roles, but devalues everyone else.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, fire cat pickles said:

Another strategy could be to look at them simply as astrological. (The Queen of Cups is actually my Significator in my readings and usually represents me--cismale, firefighter me, if you want talk about  a further observation on the QoC)

 

Or, we can find decks that redraw and redefine it, and that's fine, too.

 

 

I don't really know much about astrology, just a few things that have made their way into popular culture or that I heard about in conversations, but that's interesting.  I feel as if both male and female archetypes could represent me, including the ones in the court cards, so I guess what I'm talking about is wanting to mix things up a bit in terms of representation.

 

In some of the tarot books I've read, the authors have stated outright that the masculine is active and the feminine is passive, and that bothered me.  I wish I could remember he titles and authors, but I already returned those books to the library.

 

46 minutes ago, katrinka said:

There have been matrilineal societies where traditionally feminine roles are valued. Raising babies, shaping the minds of children and bringing forth the future are important functions, arguably more vital than playing politics and being "strong and diplomatic". There is a trend these days that devalues the old feminine roles, especially in movies. A lot of them push the idea that we should all strive to be Boss Ladies, and denigrate women who don't have these particular ambitions. That's every bit as sexist as the old tropes - moreso, really. It says we're nothing if we're not "masculine", and it strikes me as a form of internalized misogyny

The roles aren't inherently superior or inferior, they're just different. The world needs people doing ALL of these things, and it should make no difference who does them - if hubby watches the kids while his partner is out driving a forklift, nobody should have an issue with that. The problems come in when people are pushed into roles. All of this "femininity is sexist" stuff feels like a manipulative attempt at pushing. It elevates both men and women in traditionally masculine roles, but devalues everyone else.

 

 

 

 

I'm not devaluing the feminine.  I'm trying to go one step further and say that nurturing and caretaking is for people of any gender.  If there's a movie where ONLY the female characters are given traditionally feminine traits, and none of the male characters are like that too, then that's just as problematic as boss lady feminism.  Also, movies like that usually don't have any nonbinary characters.  That's why I have a problem with the traditional meanings of the court cards.

 

I don't see "feminine" roles  as inferior to "masculine" roles, I just wish there was more variety the representation of male and female characters in books, movies, and tv shows, and I also wish there ware more nonbinary characters.  That's the energy I'm taking into tarot reading.

 

And I have been pushed into roles that don't fit me. That's why I am so adamant about this.

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I don't know if I was being clear enough before, so: I wish there was more representation in popular culture of "feminine" men, "masculine" women, and also nonbinary people.

 

This is not the same as devaluing the feminine or "feminine" roles.

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2 hours ago, jadegreen said:

If there's a movie where ONLY the female characters are given traditionally feminine traits, and none of the male characters are like that too, then that's just as problematic as boss lady feminism. 

 

I think that would depend on the takeaway.
The Stepford Wives were farcically submissive and feminine, but they weren't idealized - they were presented as something nobody in their right mind wants to be. (Contrast them with a character like Edith Bunker, who was nurturing and submissive as a rule, but had no problem standing up to Archie if the situation called for it. And the live audience always cheered when she did. 😁)

 

The takeaway from the Stepford Wives was the importance of retaining our agency. Those women were scary.
 

Quote

Also, movies like that usually don't have any nonbinary characters.  That's why I have a problem with the traditional meanings of the court cards.

 

I don't see "feminine" roles  as inferior to "masculine" roles, I just wish there was more variety the representation of male and female characters in books, movies, and tv shows, and I also wish there ware more nonbinary characters.  That's the energy I'm taking into tarot reading.

 

I'd like to see more - and better - efforts at diversity, too.
Not in a trendy or forced kind of way, though. Sometimes people try too hard - we had some discussion here about a Tarot deck that was intended to be exceptionally inclusive but just ended up being a mess. It was mainly concerned with disabled/neurodivergent POC, but they tossed in LGBTQ people as well, and ended up implying that trans is a disability. There were other issues as well. Unintentional, I'm sure, but still...

 

Life is diverse. If Mayberry was real, even that place would have some diversity, for pete's sake. That's all they need to do: create things that reflect life.
 

Quote

And I have been pushed into roles that don't fit me. That's why I am so adamant about this.


Nobody has any business pushing. Stay adamant.

 

 

Edited by katrinka
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48 minutes ago, katrinka said:

 

I'd like to see more - and better - efforts at diversity, too.
 

 

Life is diverse. If Mayberry was real, even that place would have some diversity, for pete's sake. That's all they need to do: create things that reflect life.

 

Yes! So much this! 
 

2 hours ago, jadegreen said:

I don't know if I was being clear enough before, so: I wish there was more representation in popular culture of "feminine" men, "masculine" women, and also nonbinary people.

 

This is not the same as devaluing the feminine or "feminine" roles.

I agree!

 

5 hours ago, jadegreen said:

Unpopular opinion time: The Queen of Cups doesn't need to be the soft one and the King of Cups Doesn't have t be the strong one. 

 

I don’t view the king as strong and the queen as soft. I think the traditional king of cups is often more unbalanced and more conflicted than the queen (because of the fire/water combo being opposites) and the queen is typically more put together. But I still favor non-traditional court cards when they are well done. I like when a system is adapted to its modern context , that makes it more useable. In my opinion, usability is incredibly  important for any deck. 
 

Wanting more diversity in decks and media is not an unpopular opinion here. There are many of us who strive for that. Me included!

 


 

 

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2 hours ago, katrinka said:

 

I think that would depend on the takeaway.
The Stepford Wives were farcically submissive and feminine, but they weren't idealized - they were presented as something nobody in their right mind wants to be. (Contrast them with a character like Edith Bunker, who was nurturing and submissive as a rule, but had no problem standing up to Archie if the situation called for it. And the live audience always cheered when she did. 😁)

 

The takeaway from the Stepford Wives was the importance of retaining our agency. Those women were scary.
 

 

Good point, I didn't consider that when I was trying to think of examples from popular culture. 

 

1 hour ago, Raggydoll said:

 

Wanting more diversity in decks and media is not an unpopular opinion here. There are many of us who strive for that. Me included!

 


 

 

 

Thanks for the link to the List, a few of the decks I like are on there and my wishlist just got a bit longer 😂

 

Sorry If I made it sound as diversity is an unpopular opinion here, that's not what I really think, even though I could have phrased things much better.  It's hard finding tarot books that work for me, and I don't see many discussions about gender stereotypes in tarot, so I spent a lot of time feeling like maybe I was just some weirdo muttering resentfully out on the fringes or something.  When Emporerinthestreets started a thread about the Queen of Cups, I got excited enough about someone actually mentioning it that I stopped lurking and finally started an account just so I could comment.

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1 hour ago, jadegreen said:

 

Thanks for the link to the List, a few of the decks I like are on there and my wishlist just got a bit longer 😂

Glad I was able to help 😁 I always get tempted when someone shares a new deck in that thread. But it’s a good thing, I think. We then support creators that share our values and we signal to the big producers that there is a strong market for diverse decks. If you find yourself struggling with your wishlist, either of these threads below might be of assistance ☺️
 

For enabling... 😈😁

 

 

 

for de-enabling 😇

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, jadegreen said:

 

Sorry If I made it sound as diversity is an unpopular opinion here, that's not what I really think, even though I could have phrased things much better.  It's hard finding tarot books that work for me, and I don't see many discussions about gender stereotypes in tarot, so I spent a lot of time feeling like maybe I was just some weirdo muttering resentfully out on the fringes or something.  When Emporerinthestreets started a thread about the Queen of Cups, I got excited enough about someone actually mentioning it that I stopped lurking and finally started an account just so I could comment.

I’m so glad you stopped lurking and decided to join in! You are definitely not ‘some weirdo muttering resentfully out of the fringes’ but the expression really cracked me up 😆 We are all a little weird here, but in a good way 😄 

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My personal interpretation of the court cards is:

 

pages – practice

knights – action

queens – knowledge

kings – wisdom

 

Sort of like a mini four stages of growth, which can be applied to anyone regardless of gender and regardless of what a deck decides to call the court cards.

 

So the queen of cups would be someone who’s in tune with their emotions and relationships, but may have difficulty managing differences and conflicts, while the king of cups has a better understanding of that kind of management, but may be a bit insensitive to those who haven’t reached that level of understanding yet.

 

Of course, in an actual reading it would be more in depth and depending on the question, but that’s the gist of how I read them.

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9 hours ago, Norik said:

My personal interpretation of the court cards is:

 

pages – practice

knights – action

queens – knowledge

kings – wisdom

 

Sort of like a mini four stages of growth, which can be applied to anyone regardless of gender and regardless of what a deck decides to call the court cards.

 

So the queen of cups would be someone who’s in tune with their emotions and relationships, but may have difficulty managing differences and conflicts, while the king of cups has a better understanding of that kind of management, but may be a bit insensitive to those who haven’t reached that level of understanding yet.

 

Of course, in an actual reading it would be more in depth and depending on the question, but that’s the gist of how I read them.

Great keywords. It resonates pretty well with my own take on the courts. I renamed the ranks in my deck to 

 

Child

Explorer 

Witch 

Elder

 

I see it much more as an evolution than as anything to do with gender. (To me, Witch is a gender neutral word, I do not use Witch/Warlock like I know that some do). 

 

The biggest difference between a witch and an elder is that witches are more active and involved in a hands-on way with other individuals, while Elders are somewhat distant, reflective and tend to deal with groups rather than individuals. Both of them can be teachers but the Witch would likely be hands-on with each student, demonstrating and practicing the craft with them, while the Elder is more interested in preserving the legacy on a larger scale. They can both have strengths and weaknesses as to how they deal with people/situations, that’s when their suit comes into play. That helps define them further.
 

I think that the witch/queen of cups could

struggle to manage/relate to certain people but not to all people. From my experience they are often empats and can read a room or a person fairly well, so they can come up with clever solutions. But yeah, they could definitely be overwhelmed by intense conflict and by aggressive people. The fire element or the fire/air combo can be difficult for water people and vice versa. 

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6 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

The biggest difference between a witch and an elder is that witches are more active and involved in a hands-on way with other individuals, while Elders are somewhat distant, reflective and tend to deal with groups rather than individuals. Both of them can be teachers but the Witch would likely be hands-on with each student, demonstrating and practicing the craft with them, while the Elder is more interested in preserving the legacy on a larger scale. They can both have strengths and weaknesses as to how they deal with people/situations, that’s when their suit comes into play. That helps define them further.

 

 

I really love this interpretation of queens vs kings (and am likely going to add it in to my own definitions XD)

 

On 6/4/2021 at 9:01 AM, Emporerinthestreets said:

Looking for a further explanation on queen of cups, a question I posted earlier but am rephrasing. Does anyone have any distinction between the king and queen of cups that could perhaps go beyond describing the queen as soft and the king as strong and diplomatic. I’d like to stray from those connotations and find them insufficient to put it mildly. Any and all deeper interpretations are welcome! 🤠😻💃🏻💫

 

Though not the system I use, I can see the keyword "soft" working for the queen of cups, and the key word "strong" working for the king, because keywords are a starting point, not the end result. As others have pointed out, the keyword, the question, and the image on the card itself are all elements you can use to build the story of the reading.

 

Soft can be strong. It takes a great deal of the strengthen to be kind in the face of adversary
Soft can be a practical skill. Think of someone who is a master of their craft vs a novice. 

 

And on the flip side, strength can be a weakness if you try to do everything yourself. It can be condescending if you never let anyone do things for themselves. Diplomacy has it's place, but isn't always useful. If you wanted to vent to someone, would you rather talk to a "Queen of Cups" who would listen and sympathize, or a "King of Cups" who will try to fix the problem when you're not looking for a solution?

 

(If I knew how to insert of gif, I'd do Zuko form A:TLA saying "That's rough, buddy". Sometimes you just need someone to acknowledge your feelings)

 

But also, if a keyword's not resonating with you, it's totally okay to find your own.  Since I tend to do more introspective readings, have the court cards represent stages of internal growth works well for me.

 

Heck, you could even say the king of cups represents a clown car full of clowns if you wanted (as long as you have the definition in mind before you do a reading)

 

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On 6/6/2021 at 5:59 AM, Norik said:

Heck, you could even say the king of cups represents a clown car full of clowns if you wanted (as long as you have the definition in mind before you do a reading)

 

Next time I'm using a deck with unillustrated pips or confusing illustrations and I forget the traditional meaning of a card, then I'm doing this.  Upright meaning: a clown car full of clowns.  Reversed meaning: Marie Kondo.

 

Or I can just look it up, but that wouldn't be as fun.

Edited by Guest
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3 hours ago, jadegreen said:

 

Next time I'm using a deck with unillustrated pips or confusing illustrations and I forget the traditional meaning of a card, then I'm doing this.  Upright meaning: a clown car full of clowns.  Reversed meaning: Marie Kondo.

 

Or I can just look it up, but that wouldn't be as fun.

Oh gee, thanks! I'm never going to be able to get this method of interpretation out of my head now.🤣 If the reversal is particularly unwelcome - I'll just channel Marie Kondo telling me I only need one deck of cards and it isn't the one I'm using.:78496:

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