Gypsy vs Gypsy Witch

[jaygon]

I’m hoping to learn a little about the Gypsy cards.

I know that Gypsy Witch cards are a different system of reading but wondered how the two systems specifically differed? Are both systems (originally) German? 
 

Can anyone recommend an English deck for each, preferably an exact re-production of the original text + images + direction, if applicable? 

[Decan]

The Gypsy cards (but we probably should say the Bohemian cards since the word "gypsy" can be offensive these days) are a family of decks, most of them have 32 cards, other 36, the Art Deco on its side has 52.

The origin seems Austria/Hungary for what I know, but genuine information aren't easy to find for now.

 

The Gypsy Witch cards seems something from the US, not something new but quite simple (the meanings of the cards are written on the cards themselves), and the way to deal with them is explained in the leaflet that comes with the deck.

 

Hope that helps!

[jaygon]

Thank you! So the original Gypsy Witch deck is in the English language? 
 

Are there variations of this deck (numbers of cards etc.) and are the original card images still in print? 

[Decan]

Regarding the Gypsy Witch deck, for what I know, yes in English.

It isn’t a complicated deck; the cards are read from the assigned meanings, not from the picture.

Here: https://www.amazon.com/Gypsy-Witch-Fortune-Telling-Cards/dp/B0043GN10S

 

Maybe there are variations, I’m not aware, but this one (see the link) is said to be authentic to the original version.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Decan

[katrinka]

You can see the cards here:
http://steve.wagar.com/collect/gypsywitch.htm

 

It has cards in common with Lenormand, but the meanings are different. The playing card assignments appear to be random and nothing to do with the interpretation - they're most likely included so the cards can double as a poker deck. Still, the cards work well enough.

There have been similar decks printed over the years, here is one example:
http://gameofhopelenormand.bigcartel.com/product/old-gypsy-fortune-cards-c-1940
(Not to be confused with an near-identically titled but completely different deck published by Whitman https://curativearts.wordpress.com/2019/11/12/old-gypsy-fortune-telling-cards/ )

 

I wouldn't call these variations, there are too many differences in numbering, playing card assignments, interpretations and well, everything. Just a similar style with some images in common.

 

And yes, I would much rather see them referred to as Bohemian cards, the publisher's name - anything, really. Sadly, I doubt USG will be changing the title anytime soon, but that's no reason for us to use a slur word. I'll be referring to them as "the USG fortune cards."

Edited July 4, 2021 by katrinka

[jaygon]

Thank you so much for all the info. 
 

Regarding the Gypsy Fortune Telling Cards and the fact that they are a family of decks (32, 36, 52) ; Is there a standard deck? I’d like to get my hands on the most standard original deck, particularly if a reprint exists in the English language. 

[katrinka]

There is no standard Bohemian deck. Biedermeier Aufschlagkarten is the oldest one easily available. Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten is probably the most common.
These decks have titles in multiple languages.

Edited July 4, 2021 by katrinka

[gregory]

I can understand why decks that are actually CALLED Gypsy in the title get referred to that way - but where that isn't the case, do remember that the word is seen as a slur, and try to avoid using it when talking more generally.

[jaygon]

My apologies for any offence caused. 

[gregory]

No worries - it's just always nice to raise awareness

[DanielJUK]

@jaygon please be careful using that term, it is seen as a slur these days and the first rule of this forum is to respect one another. We want this forum to be friendly and welcoming to everyone.

I know you have apologised and there are some good ideas from the others here about referring to them in the thread as bohemian decks which fits what they are much better these days 🙂

[jaygon]

 

I have apologised.

 

I didn’t realise I was breaking forum rules. 
 

The term/label is used in several YouTube videos and in some online blogs in reference to these decks. 

 

I only ever intended to refer to what I believed the deck(s) to be called. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by jaygon

[katrinka]

2 hours ago, jaygon said:

The term/label is used in several YouTube videos and in some online blogs in reference to these decks.

 

Those decks come to us from a time when racism was, sadly, socially acceptable.
People use still the term, yes. But it's not OK.

"According to Dr. Ian Hancock, the word gypsy is an exonym—a word or phrase given to an ethnic group by outsiders. Hancock is a University of Texas Professor and born to Romani parents. In an interview with NPR, he says that folks don’t realize that the word “gypped” — as in, “The car salesman gypped me into buying a lemon,” meaning to swindle, cheat, or rob — derives from gypsy and is problematic, too. Too many folks don’t know that a negative connotation is perpetually being associated with a group of people who don’t deserve to be seen as cheap, untrustworthy, or thieves. When people tell him that they didn’t know either word was offensive, he says, “That’s okay. You didn’t know but now you do. So stop using it. It may mean nothing to you, but when we hear it, it still hurts.”
https://www.scarymommy.com/stop-saying-gypsy/

 

 

[jaygon]

I feel really bad that this has transpired.

 

I was genuinely only ever interested in sourcing some information about the deck(s). 
 

Bohemian Decks, it is.

 

Apologies once again.
 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by jaygon

[Decan]

14 hours ago, katrinka said:

You can see the cards here:
http://steve.wagar.com/collect/gypsywitch.htm

 

It has cards in common with Lenormand, but the meanings are different. The playing card assignments appear to be random and nothing to do with the interpretation - they're most likely included so the cards can double as a poker deck. Still, the cards work well enough.

There have been similar decks printed over the years, here is one example:
http://gameofhopelenormand.bigcartel.com/product/old-gypsy-fortune-cards-c-1940
(Not to be confused with an near-identically titled but completely different deck published by Whitman https://curativearts.wordpress.com/2019/11/12/old-gypsy-fortune-telling-cards/ )

These decks are pretty cool, all of them were published in the 1940s, they are genuine american vintage decks!

[katrinka]

5 hours ago, jaygon said:

Bohemian Decks, it is.

 

Apologies once again.

 

Apology accepted. Peace! ☮️
 

28 minutes ago, Decan said:

These decks are pretty cool, all of them were published in the 1940s, they are genuine american vintage decks!

I think that the USG is from 1903 or so? And Mary Greer says the Valmor was published in several variants, beginning in the 20's. https://marykgreer.com/tag/old-gypsy-fortune-telling-cards/ But the Whitman cards are definitely from the 1940's.

I keep meaning to get a vintage USG deck, but never got around to it. The old ones have backs with a riverbank, or clouds. Much nicer than that purple witch, and more harmonious with the cards.

Edited July 5, 2021 by katrinka

[Decan]

Oh 1903! That's quite old, I can't confirm unfortunately.

I think the Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten by Piatnik (the most common) is much more recent (1960?), it's to check.

[katrinka]

Yes. The art style is very 50's-60's pulp comic.

Mary again, re: the USG deck - she says "as early as 1894"! (See "Lenormand Off-Shoots") https://marykgreer.com/2015/03/26/19th-century-american-lenormand-decks/

Engel deck reproductions are available here: http://gameofhopelenormand.bigcartel.com/product/malkiel-s-tacheles-deck-with-mystical-symbols

[Decan]

Very interesting! I think @jaygon can make an informed choice regarding these decks!

[katrinka]

Let's not forget the upcoming Bohemian cards from BabaBarock:

https://www.facebook.com/BabaStudioBabaBarock/photos/10158380165242672

https://www.facebook.com/BabaStudioBabaBarock/photos/10158380164747672

 

And Karen has mentioned doing a reproduction of an antique deck, as well:

https://www.facebook.com/BabaStudioBabaBarock/photos/10157915074207672

I'm really looking forward to those, their stuff is always gorgeous. 💖

Watch this site:

https://baba-store.com/

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by katrinka

[jaygon]

Accepting that there is no standard deck in the Bohemian Card family, which system (32,36,52) is more commonly used in readings?

 

Katrinka mentions Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten is perhaps the most common deck. It has 36 cards? 

 

I imagine the method of reading may differ significantly, depending on the number of cards in the pack? 

Edited July 5, 2021 by jaygon

[Decan]

These are interesting and good questions here!

I really would like to have some significant answers for myself, but presently genuine resources in English are difficult to find for these decks.

Traditionally these cards weren’t read according to direction though, to do it is a very personal view.

 

Likely the companion book by Karen Mahony that will be published with the bohemian decks at Baba Studio will be helpful!

On that topic some books in German exist I guess, but I don’t read German, so…

 

[katrinka]

7 hours ago, jaygon said:

Accepting that there is no standard deck in the Bohemian Card family, which system (32,36,52) is more commonly used in readings?

 

Katrinka mentions Zigeuner Wahrsagekarten is perhaps the most common deck. It has 36 cards? 

 

 
Yes.

I see people using that one most often. I'm not sure why.

You can see all the cards here. These are the Wahrsagekarten, the Biedermeier, and the Art Deco cards, respectively:
 

 

If you scroll down, there are other decks shown. But those are from Eastern Europe and not widely available here.
 

7 hours ago, jaygon said:

I imagine the method of reading may differ significantly, depending on the number of cards in the pack? 

Not so much the method itself as the meanings. People who use more than one aren't going to alter their entire method for each deck.

The 32 card Biedermeier, for instance, has no Some Money card. Some Money shows a purse emptied on a table, someone has been getting their coins and small bills together to see how much they have. I read it as a card of poverty but not everyone does this. My reasoning is that there is already a Money card, so it makes sense to interpret Some Money as "not enough."

 

 

If you don't have a specific poverty card, poverty would have to be ascertained from other cards in combination. Money with Misfortune or Death are possibilities. It's pretty easy to switch from deck to deck.

Here is a runthrough of some basic meanings of all 52 Art Deco cards to give you an idea of how these cards are read.