Oracle Belline

[Decan]

I wanted to say that I took out of my closet my Oracle Belline recently, searched a thread about it and didn't find one!

So I create it for this Oracle, with its art a little crude, that's true (part of its particular charm!).

I have some resources for this deck, and love it.

 

 

[Decan]

Most of the members here know this oracle deck I think, but there are probably people who have just discoved it.

 

It's a French Oracle of 52 cards + 1 blue card (some use it as particularly beneficial, other people ignore it).

You have 3 cards apart: the Key, The Star of the Man & the Star of the Woman.

 

Then the other cards are divided into 7 groups (and 7 cards for each group). Each of these 7 groups is connected to a planet, so 7 because of the 7 traditional planets.

This way you have 7 cards connected to the Sun, 7 for the Moon and so on.

It's a little deck that reads very well, and much appreciated.

 

I have another version of it, more modern regarding the art, but the original one has a stronger presence, and the card stock of the other one isn't that good.

[Guest]

As you know, it is a firm favourite of mine. It is extremely versatile and has many layers that unveil themselves over time.  

[Decan]

56 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

As you know, it is a firm favourite of mine. It is extremely versatile and has many layers that unveil themselves over time.  

Yeah I know that it is a favourite of yours!

I was surprised that there was not a special thread on the forum for the Belline.

 

This Oracle is read upright only, not reversed; I mention this because I saw one time on a forum someone who was using it with cards reversed, which surprised me a bit since I never saw that before.

[DanielJUK]

Some years ago I saw lots of references to how accurate it was online so I ordered one.

I do love it, you are right about the crude artwork but I like it somehow. It's weirdly endearingly odd.

 

I must get it out of my collection, dust it off and use it again, you have inspired me @Decan 🙂

 

If there is a lot of talking and usage of the Belline, we don't mine making it it's own section under Oracles but for now I am glad it has it's own discussion thread here and hopefully that will grow in time 🙂

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Decan said:

Yeah I know that it is a favourite of yours!

I was surprised that there was not a special thread on the forum for the Belline.

Over time interest waxed and waned; however, never to a great extent. The tarot d'Eltynne had its fans. But that was transient, too.

 

It was the same with l’oracle de la triade which I also use a lot. 

During my second year working with it I used it exclusively: no tarots or Petit Lenormand. I found that forged a strong link. It is always on the table.

 

I find it a good compliment to tarot — which I got off Silvestre. I also use it for an adapted chien de pique. 

 

27 minutes ago, Decan said:

This Oracle is read upright only, not reversed; I mention this because I saw one time on a forum someone who was using it with cards reversed, which surprised me a bit since I never saw that before.

No, I’ve never seen reversals. I cannot see how they would help. You already have the celestial spheres. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Guest

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, mxlavender said:

No, I’ve never seen reversals. I cannot see how they would help. You already have the celestial spheres. 

I never understood why people want to do one-size-fits-all like that. People not only do it with cards, they try to do it with everything.

Currently I'm seeing a lot of merle dogs in breeds that do not have naturally occurring merle genes. If you see a merle French Bulldog, for instance, it isn't a purebred French Bulldog, since another breed that does carry the merling gene has been crossed into the lines recently. But these people will swear it's purebred and charge more than a reputable breeder would for a pup. It's disturbing because when you breed two dogs that carry the merle gene, the puppies are usually blind, deaf, or both. (You can only get merle ethically by crossing a dog with the gene with one that doesn't have it.) Some are born with no eyes at all. And a dog with the gene might not look like a merle - they could be something called a "cryptic merle" and you have to do a DNA test for that. People who breed trendy crossbreeds/"designer dogs" for a quick buck don't DNA test.

Merle all the dogs, reverse all the cards - ack. There's much less at stake using reversals with the Belline, of course, but it's still a poor fit. The method works fine as it is, why tinker with it? It's like saying "My car runs well, I'm going to take this hose off and see what happens."

 

[Decan]

To be honest I saw someone using reversals with this oracle just one time in an English speaking forum; but I prefer to say it to clarify, because it is unusual to do that with this deck. I didn't say something and didn't interfere because of diplomacy and it wasn't my stuff.

With a card from the cards of Saturn, for example "misfortune", reversed will it become "fortune" (with Saturn as its attribute)? Or "more misfortune"? It would be a bit nonsensical. Actually the woman looks already so afflicted…

But well, I think most of people use it upright.

 

Colette Silvestre explains positional spreads, but a line or a box of 9 could be also a nice option. She doesn't deal with the blue card too.

ETA: I also add that you don’t use directions with this deck (for what I know); there are probably a few decks where directions are important, but not all.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Decan

[JudyReadsCards]

I love this deck! I bought an Eltynne first because I "thought" I didn't like the crude artwork of the Belline, in the same way I "thought" I didn't like unrestored TdM. I've since sold it (as well as my CBD 😏 - Team Madenié! ✊).

 

Does anyone have any views, positive or negative, on Sylvie Steinbach's treatment of the Belline? I read/watched her free online mini-course, and I have her "Secrets of the Belline Oracle" but I haven't dived into that yet.

Edited August 2, 2021 by JudyReadsCards

[Decan]

I don't own Sylvie Steinbach's book for my part, but I remember that @mxlavender took a look at this book.

For the Eltynne, I never was really wild about it, so never bought it.

 

The other version (modern) of this Oracle I own is named "L'Urne du Destin" (pic below). It's an alternative regarding the artwork, but I prefer the original one. The back of the cards and the card stock aren't fantastic for "L'Urne du Destin" IMO.

At the top of the pic you can see Edmond, the fortune teller who drew the original Belline around 1845, it's not that new!

ETA: regarding both this deck and the original Belline the corners are square, it's me who rounded them.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Decan

[katrinka]

Yes, I gave that book a pass, too. Her Lenormand book was a clinker, TBH, so I wasn't really interested in this one.
 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, katrinka said:

Merle all the dogs, reverse all the cards - ack. There's much less at stake using reversals with the Belline, of course, but it's still a poor fit. The method works fine as it is, why tinker with it? It's like saying "My car runs well, I'm going to take this hose off and see what happens."

Definitely. Unless I was using the Etteilla or petit cartomancien reversals are just not on my radar. There are far clearer options to add additional information.

 

6 hours ago, Decan said:

To be honest I saw someone using reversals with this oracle just one time in an English speaking forum; but I prefer to say it to clarify, because it is unusual to do that with this deck. I didn't say something and didn't interfere because of diplomacy and it wasn't my stuff.

6 hours ago, Decan said:

Colette Silvestre explains positional spreads, but a line or a box of 9 could be also a nice option. She doesn't deal with the blue card too.

ETA: I also add that you don’t use directions with this deck (for what I know); there are probably a few decks where directions are important, but not all.

 

 

Of course. It is not for us to police but it is worth noting that it is unusual.

 

6 hours ago, Decan said:

With a card from the cards of Saturn, for example "misfortune", reversed will it become "fortune" (with Saturn as its attribute)? Or "more misfortune"? It would be a bit nonsensical. Actually the woman looks already so afflicted…

But well, I think most of people use it upright.

 
That would break her back lol!  If we look at the history of reversals they had clear definitions rather that opposite or blocked, et cetera. 
 

6 hours ago, Decan said:

Colette Silvestre explains positional spreads, but a line or a box of 9 could be also a nice option. She doesn't deal with the blue card too.

Over time, I have found it to be a very flexible and use a mixture of spreads (line, carré, croix, astrologique, prenom, horseshoe, evolution, chien de pique, coven of thirteen, &c). It is versatile. 

 

3 hours ago, JudyReadsCards said:

Does anyone have any views, positive or negative, on Sylvie Steinbach's treatment of the Belline? I read/watched her free online mini-course, and I have her "Secrets of the Belline Oracle" but I haven't dived into that in yet.

I read and did a small review. It is not a bad book, but I had a few quibbles. 
 

For example she adds secondary planets to the cards. There is no secondary planets, and her selection is sometimes…

 

She gives master cards for charging. These are fine (although I disagree with some selections) — neither Edmond nor Belline gave them. So each reader comes to their own. I have mine. 

 

If you have a foundation it is fine. There are some good Belline websites but these are in French. 
 

2 hours ago, Decan said:

The other version (modern) of this Oracle I own is named "L'Urne du Destin" (pic below). It's an alternative regarding the artwork, but I prefer the original one. The back of the cards and the card stock aren't fantastic for "L'Urne du Destin" IMO.

At the top of the pic you can see Edmond, the fortune teller who drew the original Belline around 1845, it's not that new!

ETA: regarding both this deck and the original Belline the corners are square, it's me who rounded them.

It is lovely. I did think of getting it but I’m quite comfortable with the standard. 

[JudyReadsCards]

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

Yes, I gave that book a pass, too. Her Lenormand book was a clinker, TBH, so I wasn't really interested in this one.
 

 

Hmm. Worth knowing, thank you.

[JudyReadsCards]

6 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

I read and did a small review. It is not a bad book, but I had a few quibbles. 
For example she adds secondary planets to the cards. There is no secondary planets, and her selection is sometimes…

She gives master cards for charging. These are fine (although I disagree with some selections) — neither Edmond nor Belline gave them. So each reader comes to their own. I have mine. 

If you have a foundation it is fine. There are some good Belline websites but these are in French. 

 

Ah ha! Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "innovations".

Could you recommend a good website (or two)? I realise I could Google, but just because someone is French doesn't guarantee they know what they're talking about. 🙄

[Guest]

Hi Judy 

 

Off the top of my head:

 

http://m.lemessagedescartes.webnode.fr/oracle-de-belline/les-52-cartes-du-belline/

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, JudyReadsCards said:

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of "innovations".

Ms. Steinbach was an astrologer in France but of the theosophical bent. From memory, she “specialised” in “past lives”. In the book she conflates the signs and the houses. 

 

If you are of a similar astrological bent it might work for you. But for me it was almost anachronistic. 

[JudyReadsCards]

29 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

Hi Judy 

 

Off the top of my head:

 

http://m.lemessagedescartes.webnode.fr/oracle-de-belline/les-52-cartes-du-belline/

 

 Merci!

[JudyReadsCards]

24 minutes ago, mxlavender said:

In the book she conflates the signs and the houses. 

If you are of a similar astrological bent it might work for you. But for me it was almost anachronistic. 

 

Not being of an astrological bent I'd probably get totally confused by her doing that, so it's helpful to have a heads-up. 👍

[Decan]

@mxlavender thanks for the resource, it's looks quite interesting!

[Guest]

There was a good blog on over-blog, but I cannot remember its name.  If it comes to me I will add.

 

[Decan]

Below a pic of the card N° 32 "wickedness", you can recognize what is called "a dark lantern" in English (according to Reverso), that is a lantern used in the past mainly by bandits.

I checked the Eltynne and they didn't make a mistake by depicting this sort of lantern.

We don't necessarily always find an explanation of this particular lantern for this card in books. Actually, here the symbolism isn't positive or about consciousness or similar.

For my part I always found that Edmond didn't draw well the lantern in this card since it looks like a bit a fire hydrant 🤪, but no he drew correctly a dark lantern! Well...

The deck was drawn around 1845, so people were able to understand pretty quickly what was depicted in the card.

 

Did Ms Steinback offer a relevant explanation regarding this particularity in her booK?

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by Decan

[katrinka]

Une lanterne sourde makes another appearance! 

 

 

[Decan]

Yes this lantern and a dagger together remind a card in the Petit Oracle des Dames of course!!

The literal translation of une Lanterne sourde would be "a deaf lantern", but I found that you say a dark lantern instead (this doesn't refer to its color, but to its function).

Decan (new great specialist of old lanterns) 🤪 😁

Edited August 4, 2021 by Decan

[Decan]

On 8/1/2021 at 6:54 PM, mxlavender said:

Over time interest waxed and waned; however, never to a great extent.

So far it's what it seems, indeed.

 

But we never know, maybe in 5 years or more, it could become popular in the English speaking world, the fashion trend is weird very often.

Here in France it is very popular (and always in the scenery for all I know); people love it (one of the best sellings, and the deck is pretty expensive for a deck of the mass market). I don't think it is because it has a deep esotericism or something, it's likely more simple. Actually, it is probably because the first reading we had with a fortune teller here was with this deck, most often. We have memories with it.

Otherwise, it is an oracle that speaks about everyday life, not at all about the fundamental issues, pathworking and so on; it is an error if people think that. Well, a popular deck using by people. Just my opinion, of course, as always.

[JudyReadsCards]

6 hours ago, Decan said:

Below a pic of the card N° 32 "wickedness", you can recognize what is called "a dark lantern" in English...

We don't necessarily always find an explanation of this particular lantern for this card in books. Actually, here the symbolism isn't positive or about consciousness or similar...

 

Did Ms Steinback offer a relevant explanation regarding this particularity in her booK?

 

Oh dear god.

Here's what Ms Steinbach says - "Interpretation: The lantern's light focuses on the truth of what is happening or reveals what is hidden. Danger or problems can be avoided if one is willing to look and pay attention."

 

She does, at least, include Edmond's (far more appropriate) meanings: "The Lantern warns of dangerous intentions due to jealousy, envy, and meanness. [It] can embody an evil individual."

 

But the damage is done.

So much for this book. 😖

 

So, I'm up for a book by Mage Edmond, if such exists, and I'll damn well learn to read French if I have to. 😂