bastetly Posted August 11, 2021 Posted August 11, 2021 I looked up the root of the word "fascism" today, and it is "fasces": including the long history of this symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces, which is a bound wood bundle. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fascist_Party. Not all of the card decks show them bound, but the Thoth card says OPPRESSION. http://www.esotericmeanings.com/ten-of-wands-thoth-tarot-card-tutorial/ Has this card ever come up for you, or would you use it, as an indicator for describing a fascist person or system? Or only in combination w another card?
Nisaba Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 No, but what a brilliant idea! The card would describe the general population, though, not the political hierarchy. If you've got the Magician or the Devil looking at the Ten Wands, then yes!
Decan Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 I don't think too. Quote Wikipedia: (...) The fasces lictoriae ("bundles of the lictors") symbolised power and authority (imperium) in ancient Rome (...) Actually I have this exact symbol on one of my oracle decks, and the meaning associated is peace (likely it is an armed peace!). With Tarot I don't think though. There are always appropriations here and there, but this particular symbol is used widely in the US, apparently in France too, with no dubious meaning.
AlbaTross Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 Interesting. I learned something new. I've had the Ten of Wands come up quite often in readings, but fascism is definitely not what comes to mind for me. I don't think that's in the card's intended meaning either, but perhaps there are contexts in which it could potentially be interpreted as having fascist undertones, as intuitive interpretation of a card's imagery is very much part of Tarot. I'm trying to think off the top of my head what I might ask the cards where it may make sense to interpret it that way though. Maybe I could be reading into the leadership of an individual or political party? It's definitely not relevant to the questions I normally consult the cards for, or which friends would normally ask me to read into, so for me this is more an interesting factoid than anything. "Will I find love?" "Yes, but before long you will find out that she's the dictator of a small island country where you will promptly be whisked away to, will never be able to leave, and will be subject to her rule for the remainder of your days. In other words, you're probably better off sticking to the single life."
katrinka Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 9 hours ago, bastetly said: I looked up the root of the word "fascism" today, and it is "fasces": including the long history of this symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces, which is a bound wood bundle. That's just it, the fasces is bound. The rods on the 10 of Wands generally aren't. 9 hours ago, bastetly said: See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Fascist_Party. Il Duce ended up as a literal. physical pittura infamante. Fascism is not well-regarded. 😉 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittura_infamante 9 hours ago, bastetly said: Not all of the card decks show them bound, The main ones don't. There may be some that do, but a lot of decks have mistakes in them, too. 9 hours ago, bastetly said: but the Thoth card says OPPRESSION. http://www.esotericmeanings.com/ten-of-wands-thoth-tarot-card-tutorial/ Yes. Some of the logic behind that is explained here: https://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/wands-10.html It's nothing to do with fascism on the basis of the rods, though "oppression" could certainly point that way. If you do happen to have a reasonably well-done deck with a fasces on the 10 of Wands, there's this to consider: Originally, there was just a little story, by Aesop or someone like that, about a man who showed his sons that easily-broken sticks are impossible to break when bound together. It was about strength in unity, not dictatorship, he was telling his sons they should stick together. Then it got co-opted by Mussolini: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces This part is interesting: "During the first half of the twentieth century both the swastika and the fasces (each symbol having its own unique ancient religious and mythological associations) became heavily identified with the authoritarian/fascist political movements of Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini. During this period the swastika became deeply stigmatized, but the fasces did not undergo a similar process. "The fasces remained in use in many societies after World War II perhaps because, prior to Mussolini, the fasces had already been adopted and incorporated within the governmental iconography of many governments outside Italy. As such, its use persists as an accepted form of governmental and other iconography in various contexts, whilst the swastika only remains in common usage in Asia where it originated as an ancient Hindu symbol, or in Navajo iconography, the religious purposes of which are entirely unrelated to, and pre-date, early twentieth century European fascism." There IS the creepiness of it, though, and the matter of the word "fascism" being rooted in "fasces." We do have to be vigilant, it's not eradicated. 9 hours ago, bastetly said: Has this card ever come up for you, or would you use it, as an indicator for describing a fascist person or system? Or only in combination w another card? I don't think I have any decks with a bound bundle, so only in the sense of oppression, and I'd need context and supporting cards. Otherwise it could get silly: "My supervisor told me not to be back late from break. My supervisor is a fascist." 🙄
Decan Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) 30 minutes ago, katrinka said: I don't think I have any decks with a bound bundle, (...) You have!! Look at your Oracle Belline, card 26 🙂 But it's not about fascism. Edited August 12, 2021 by Decan
katrinka Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 3 minutes ago, Decan said: You have!! Look at your Oracle Belline, card 26 🙂 But it's not about fascism. Yes, the Belline. But what I meant was a Tarot 10 of Wands. I agree - it's nice in the Belline!
devin Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 (edited) Interesting. It's got me thinking of fascism combos. Like Nisaba said, the Devil should be there. The Hanged Man, too. 10 of Wands, sure. But I'd also like to see the 6 of Cups to represent fascism's romantic element, or maybe the 7 of Cups? Edited August 12, 2021 by devin
Decan Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 I would see the Emperor with the Devil; the King of Swords could be an interesting take too.
devin Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, Decan said: I would see the Emperor with the Devil; the King of Swords could be an interesting take too. Yes, you're right, the Emperor would have to be there.
Wyrdkiss Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 There is a fascinaty quote from Crowley about the emperor card in the Thoth. I will share it later as it pertains to this discussion.
katrinka Posted August 12, 2021 Posted August 12, 2021 I've had Birchrod combos come up in Lenormand for a recent wannabe fascist dictator, come to think about it. Not to get political, but I'm happy that guy is gone.
bastetly Posted August 13, 2021 Author Posted August 13, 2021 (edited) O interesting responses! I just now checked in, not sure if anyone would respond. Thank you! Am trying to absorb the information in the links, and esp the breakdown of the Thoth 10oW and The Emperor. Please understand my process is slow as Tarot is not a system I use often. I usually cast one card draws for the Triomphs. (Doesn't prevent me fm continuing to acquire a new to me deck every now and then!) I do see that in the Sola Busca and the later Smith Rider Waite, those long heavy sticks that are beng carried, almost to the destination, look very unwieldy, and would've been better, bundled, if the carrier had done a little planning first. Not sure (he) is even going to make it without those sticks/wands/batons coming apart and tumbling to the ground lol. Continues to ponder ..... Edited August 18, 2021 by bastetly
Wyrdkiss Posted August 14, 2021 Posted August 14, 2021 (edited) on the Emperor in the Thoth: "at his feet, couchant, is the lamb and the flag, to confirm its attribution on the lower plane. For the ram, by nature, is a wild and courageous animal, lonely in lonely places, wheras when tamed and made to lie down in green pastures, nothing is left but the docile, cowardly, gregarious and succulent beast. This is the theory of government." ~ A. Crowley, the Book of Thoth Edited August 14, 2021 by Wyrdkiss contributor
katrinka Posted August 14, 2021 Posted August 14, 2021 Yes. Crowley is occasionally chilling. There are some things that make me keep good old weird Uncle Al at arms length - not that "Beast 666 wickedest man in the world" hype, but things like this. Brilliant as he was, he'd have made nice with the Nazis if they'd let him open a magical lodge. Don't get me wrong, he did some very good things, too. https://medium.com/war-is-boring/nazis-secret-agent-666-and-the-birth-of-brand-awareness-5c9329b3b74 But the overall takeaway I get is that he wasn't really antifascist or antinazi, he was just out for...Crowley. And the Age of Horus, really? Some flesh-ripping hawk child? Bring on the Aeon of Ma'at. I've had enough.
katrinka Posted August 14, 2021 Posted August 14, 2021 (edited) It's true, though. That IS the theory of government. We should go out of our way not to be "docile, cowardly, gregarious and succulent." John Fire Lame Deer once told a story about how the fat, tame ducks get eaten but the skinny, no account ducks get passed over. Be the skinny, no account, ill-tempered duck. Edited August 14, 2021 by katrinka
sixdegrees Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 The Sheridan Douglas tarot uses the symbol of the fasces on its Ten of Wands.
Decan Posted August 16, 2021 Posted August 16, 2021 1 hour ago, sixdegrees said: The Sheridan Douglas tarot uses the symbol of the fasces on its Ten of Wands. Interesting, and what they say regarding the meaning, interpretation of the symbol here?
bastetly Posted August 16, 2021 Author Posted August 16, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, Decan said: Interesting, and what they say regarding the meaning, interpretation of the symbol here? @sixdegrees That certainly IS the classic fasces.. ..card. wow @Decan The lwb that came w my Sheridan-Douglas deck says of the 10 of Batons: "Triumph of force. Oppression of the weak. Dynamic progress is in danger of becoming static. Success is now a burden. " That's the upright interpretation. In Alfred Douglas's book The Tarot, publ. 1972, he adds: "The triumph of force. Great good fortune which has become the means of oppression. Obstinacy and fixed ideas which serve to repress society into a static mould. Power which has no end beyond the expression of itself. The burden imposed by a surfeit of success." I noticed that the reversal of the preceeding 9 of Batons is said by him: "Obstinacy, inability to compromise, avoidable delays, suspicion, lack of adaptability, fixed attitudes." Edited August 17, 2021 by bastetly
bastetly Posted August 17, 2021 Author Posted August 17, 2021 On 8/11/2021 at 10:01 PM, Nisaba said: No, but what a brilliant idea! The card would describe the general population, though, not the political hierarchy. If you've got the Magician or the Devil looking at the Ten Wands, then yes! Thanks for being the first to respond @Nisaba❤️ I wanted to ask if that's because it's a Minor card and is a higher #? Have you been following the thread? A member found an exact depiction of a fasces (that's a wood bundle lol) in the Sheridan-Douglas Tarot deck, and Douglas's description of the card is, well, IN-TER-ES-TING
Decan Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 6 hours ago, bastetly said: @Decan The lwb that came w my Sheridan-Douglas deck says of the 10 of Batons: "Triumph of force. Oppression of the weak. Dynamic progress is in danger of becoming static. Success is now a burden. " That's the upright interpretation. In Alfred Douglas's book The Tarot, publ. 1972, he adds: "The triumph of force. Great good fortune which has become the means of oppression. Obstinacy and fixed ideas which serve to repress society into a static mould. Power which has no end beyond the expression of itself. The burden imposed by a surfeit of success." I noticed that the reversal of the preceeding 9 of Batons is said by him: "Obstinacy, inability to compromise, avoidable delays, suspicion, lack of adaptability, fixed attitudes." Thanks for that. Well, the assigned meaning could indeed refer to something more political in this Tarot. Generally, I don't think about the 10 of Wands that way, more on the burden stuff.
katrinka Posted August 17, 2021 Posted August 17, 2021 28 minutes ago, Decan said: Generally, I don't think about the 10 of Wands that way, more on the burden stuff. This. Fascism is possible, but it's a bit of a stretch. Use only as needed. 😉
Nisaba Posted August 18, 2021 Posted August 18, 2021 On 8/17/2021 at 11:06 AM, bastetly said: Thanks for being the first to respond @Nisaba❤️ I wanted to ask if that's because it's a Minor card and is a higher #? Have you been following the thread? A member found an exact depiction of a fasces (that's a wood bundle lol) in the Sheridan-Douglas Tarot deck, and Douglas's description of the card is, well, IN-TER-ES-TING No, because the figure in the Ten Wands is obviously downtrodden and powerless - fascists and fascism itself tend not to be downtrodden and powerless. Its victims do, though.
Nisaba Posted August 18, 2021 Posted August 18, 2021 On 8/14/2021 at 2:56 PM, katrinka said: Yes. Crowley is occasionally chilling. ... But the overall takeaway I get is that he wasn't really antifascist or antinazi, he was just out for...Crowley. Many years ago I read an interesting biography of him - forgotten the author - which examined his relationship with his mother, which was pretty much love-hate or even hate-hate, and advanced the hypothesis that all his life, everything he did was just done to shock his mother, and once she died, his internalised mother. He seemed pitiable, not scary. I can believe that. Damaged children very frequently carry their damage for life.
katrinka Posted August 18, 2021 Posted August 18, 2021 20 minutes ago, Nisaba said: Many years ago I read an interesting biography of him - forgotten the author - which examined his relationship with his mother, which was pretty much love-hate or even hate-hate, and advanced the hypothesis that all his life, everything he did was just done to shock his mother, and once she died, his internalised mother. He seemed pitiable, not scary. I can believe that. Damaged children very frequently carry their damage for life. There may be truth to that. He was certainly trying to shock somebody. He recounted doing horrible things to a cat to see if it had nine lives. That one shocked even me. The story is so over the top/hyperbolic that he almost surely made it up for shock value. People who actually do such things eventually become serial killers. So why THAT particular imagery? It's very easy to debunk a superstition, he could have easily made his point in a less sickening way. Shock value and internalized anger. And his mother was such a religious fanatic, it makes sense that he'd carry anger towards her.
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