On prediction, free will & determinism

[Dr_T]

I’m keen to hear any views on predictive tarot and how you thinks that gels (or doesn’t) with the concept of free will.

 

non-judgemental and non-critiqued (which is crazy hard for a philosopher) … just really interested in what position readers hold.

 

thanks.

[smittenkitten]

Personally I don't like predictive reading because I believe in free will. I don't like people feeling like they have no control over the outcome of the situation, nor do I like feeling burdened with that responsibility as a reader. 

 

As a psychology/counselling student (and an agnostic one at that), I prefer to take a more pragmatic approach that provides a new perspective on a situation rather than suggesting an outcome. 

 

I do think the personality of the client plays a role too. Someone that looks to tarot for the smallest question or repeatedly for the same question makes me a little uncomfortable as I feel pressured to provide a concrete answer and that isn't my style. 

 

I suppose a lot of this crosses over with the ethics thread (which I have been reading with interest) about where we set boundaries as practitioners. 

 

I certainly don't profess to be a psychological professional (not yet, at least), and I don't think tarot can replace therapy. But I do think it can inspire reflection, and in my opinion that is its power, not prediction. 

 

Smittenkitten 

[gregory]

I absolutely believe in free will, and also that nothing is written in stone. A predictive reading states what will happen IF NOTHING CHANGES. But - things do change. People can think about advice and switch paths. Like that kid on AT I often cite, whose mother asked if the kid would pass her exams. We all said NO CHANCE. Faced with so many of us saying this, the kid was horrified, buckled down and passed. Now, that too could have been predestined - we can't know - but the prediction of failure fell over.

 

Samara, anyone ?

[katrinka]

And some things can be changed, others can't. A person in hospice isn't likely to "free will" their way out of there.

[gregory]

Sure, no contest there. But "you will be run over by a bus on Tuesday" can be headed off by staying off the street... Frivolous - but true, nonetheless.)

[katrinka]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

Sure, no contest there. But "you will be run over by a bus on Tuesday" can be headed off by staying off the street... Frivolous - but true, nonetheless.)

 

Not necessarily. 😉

[gregory]

That wouldn't work if you lived in an apartment...  

[katrinka]

You're partly right. But there is still the ground floor to consider.

https://www.wfla.com/news/school-bus-crashes-into-apartment-building/

 

[Marina]

I don't think the possibility of prediction negates free will. There's causality, which says that things happen in consequence of other things, but these consequences are not as obvious or as immediate as we think they are. I think this is where prediction "acts" - it points to where our current "thread of causality" is leading. Sometimes is can be changed... sometimes, it cannot. There are things you can't just 'free will' your way out, as @katrinka pointed. The fact you were born in a certain time, place and family gets to determine a lot of things in your life. You can change where you are going in some aspects - move to another place, leave your family if they suck -, but the past cannot be changed, thus it is not subject to free will. 

 

I like Viktor Frankl's definition of free will: "To choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." So free will does not get to determine our circumstances - the causality behind they are way too complex and bigger than us - but, to some degree, we can determine how we react to them. 

 

Of course, if you suffer from, let's say, a health condition that impedes you from being able to choose your own attitude, then your power to free will is diminished. Some authors in psychology even define "mental illness" as a certain lack of freedom in which to navigate the world. 

 

Even physicists argue whether free will can exist in a universe pre-determined by the nature of the laws of physics. If you'd like to go down that particular rabbit hole, I leave you with this very nice episode of PBS Space Time to mull over.

 

Last, but not least, there's a quote from the film The last Samurai, which I like a lot:

 

Katsumoto: You believe a man can change his destiny?

Algren: I believe a man does what he can, until his destiny is revealed.

 

I too think we do what we can, with what we have, as life reveals itself to us. Like Frankl, I believe a lot of our free will is in the way we react or act about events that happen to us. This is where divination can be helpful, as it gives us an idea of what is ahead right now, so that we may better consider our own current steps.

 

And no, I don't claim to have science or philosophy to back me on this. It's just my very personal point of view.

Edited September 15, 2021 by marinaoracles

[Dr_T]

Free Will in the philosophical sense means (Oversimplified) that you could have done otherwise… yes context may severely limit your options drastically but, if there is more than a single option open to an individual, they have free will if they can freely choose between these options.

 

what (I think, correct me if I’m wrong) some of you seem to be saying gels with string theory / parallel planes.  E.g.

 

there are multiple future paths branching at every decision point (assumes free will) and that a predictive reading is a description of one possible (perhaps probable) pathway, all things being equal, but is not pre determined as a necessary outcome.

 

 

[gregory]

You know - I think you would do better to have this discussion on another forum - one centred on philosophy and physics and so on. I think it's OTT academic, to be honest. We are here to read. We all do it in different ways. I haven't the time to consider my readings in terms of string theory; I also have a life, and I also want to read my cards, not over-analyse the process. Sorry.

 

No actually I'm not sorry.

[katrinka]

Agreed. There's a lot of splitting hairs over things that aren't even relevant here. I'm fine with the conversation straying into bits about string theory, ancient Greeks, or anything, really. But it's gotten excessive.

[Dr_T]

1 hour ago, gregory said:

I think you would do better to have this discussion on another forum

not really. I’n interested in the application of these concepts within Tarot so it’s the perfect forum.

 

but it’s one small topic from the many available here and there is no compulsion to join in (or did your free will go bye bye?) … and if no-one here is interested in the academic slant it will die a lonely death (no harm, no foul)

[Marina]

I think my post was misunderstood... I certainly did not mean to bring string theory into the conversation (I don't even understand it very well to be honest) and be a spoilsport, lol! I only suggested the PBS Space Time video because it shows how the question of free will can be complex. But you definitely do not need to know any of this in order to read your cards.

 

In my personal practice, I believe the possibility of prediction through card reading or any other oracular method and the possibility of choosing between different paths do not necessarily oppose each other. That's what I was trying to explain in my last post.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2021 by marinaoracles
typo

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, Dr_T said:

not really. I’n interested in the application of these concepts within Tarot so it’s the perfect forum.

 

but it’s one small topic from the many available here and there is no compulsion to join in (or did your free will go bye bye?) … and if no-one here is interested in the academic slant it will die a lonely death (no harm, no foul)

 

It's really not a discussion if that's your standard response to having something you say or do questioned.

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, Dr_T said:

but it’s one small topic from the many available here and there is no compulsion to join in (or did your free will go bye bye?) …

You are entirely correct that no one is forced to join a discussion, but the way you phrased it is not particularly nice. 

Here is a reminder that goes for everyone :
 

1. Respect one another.

You don't have to agree with everything somebody says, but please be respectful in your replies.  We are a supportive family here and want to hear what everyone has to say.  We're glad to note that we have so far fostered a friendly community where a diversity of viewpoints is not only accepted, but actively cultivated.

 

https://www.thetarotforum.com/rules/

[selena]

Most of the readings I do are predictive focusing on situations and circumstances (event oriented).

 

I believe in the existence of fate, destiny and free will. I do not see them as mutually exclusive.

 

Free will for me is the exercising of reason: how we respond to circumstances. We all have natural talents and abilities (destiny) but how we use them is up to us (free will). Some things in our lives, however, will occur whatever (fate). 

[katrinka]

34 minutes ago, selena said:

I believe in the existence of fate, destiny and free will. I do not see them as mutually exclusive.

 

This. Some things can be changed, some can't. It's actually fairly simple. 
 

[selena]

42 minutes ago, katrinka said:

This. Some things can be changed, some can't. It's actually fairly simple. 

 

It is for me. It is a divisive topic but I’ve never quite understood why.

 

From the perspective of an astrologer our birth chart contains a number of promises or highest potentials such as fertility or talents (destiny). After birth these are released over time in circumstances congruent to our state (fate). But we can choose to an extent how we realise these (free will).

 

Cards (or stones, bones, coffee ground or tea leaves) often describe the hand of fate in motion. If you get a difficult forecast you may be able to change it or (more likely) take steps to minimise it. 

[katrinka]

37 minutes ago, selena said:

From the perspective of an astrologer our birth chart contains a number of promises or highest potentials such as fertility or talents (destiny).

 

Yes. I think of talents as being like seeds. Sometimes they land on fertile soil under the proper conditions, and at the right time. So if someone gets a music "seed", in those circumstances they could potentially have Beatles-level success. Most never do, and have moderate success at best. The seed has landed on stony ground, or has to push through a crack in the sidewalk. Some have no success and end up busking at a train station. But their destiny is still music. It's what they do.

 

So even then, the talent is a gift, but it has to be honed. And there's a LOT of luck involved, too.

[vulprix]

Just to throw a bit of a wrench in here...

 

I pretty much believe in straight up determinism.  But I'm cool with it. 🙂 

To me, "free will" is important in its exercise, and it gives life its romance.  But ultimately, the grand interaction is what's really in control, not any one of us.

 

(Paradoxically when I talk about things like this, I feel as though I am soaking in the ego 😛  Embarrassing, lol)

 

 

Tying back to tarot, predictive readings have been very powerful for me, and I also have to give them the side eye in order to make sure I live my life.  So, I think that being discretionary about when you perform predictive readings can be useful, for one's psyche if nothing else.

[Raggydoll]

I personally find the word ‘free will’ a bit misleading. Our wills are quite conditioned by lots of things outside of our control, and every situation that plays out is impacted by the law of cause and effect on a global level. With that said, we all have many options and we can also influence or impact many things. Some people have more wiggle room than others, and certain choices can increase our degree of power or influence. 
 

I also believe in fate as a grand web that is in continuous motion. Every being helps weave the web, but the structure or framework of the web is also impacted both by history and by the force of Fate itself. 

[Petalene]

I believe in free will and that you get to make your own choices. However, some things you can’t choose. I can’t choose the weather, but I can choose where I live and where I go. That doesn’t mean that the weather will always be what I want it to be. It doesn’t mean we have unlimited choices and it doesn’t mean I have the money or resources or ability to go everywhere in the world at any time. We don’t exist in a vacuum. My choices affect others and their choices affect me. Predictive readings look at the current trajectory and probable outcome likely to result from it, which is subject to change based on your actions and outside influences.

[katrinka]

3 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

Our wills are quite conditioned by lots of things outside of our control

This. Is it really you*? Or your age, your hormones, your peer group, things you were told, or something else? Do you still want all the same things you wanted when you were 12? Which will is your will? Crowley wrote about True Will, but that's a kind of Thelemite version of Enlightenment. Most things we ascribe to "will" are a lot more mundane.

 

*"You" is intended to include everyone, of course.

 

[Raggydoll]

4 minutes ago, katrinka said:

This. Is it really you*? Or your age, your hormones, your peer group, things you were told, or something else? Do you still want all the same things you wanted when you were 12? Which will is your will? Crowley wrote about True Will, but that's a kind of Thelemite version of Enlightenment. Most things we ascribe to "will" are a lot more mundane.

 

*"You" is intended to include everyone, of course.

 

Indeed. I remember as a young adult, writing a letter to my older self. I sealed the letter and put it away for many years. It contained my thoughts and dreams and questions to my future self. I can’t remember the details but I do know that when I opened the letter it was as if it was written by a very different person. I remembered writing it, but I simply was not

that person anymore. We change all the time. “This is because that is. That is because this is”. I don’t find that phrase disempowering at all. On the contrary!