The Fox

[DanielJUK]

1 hour ago, Chariot said:

For those who don't use The Fox to designate 'work' or profession, is there another card that serves this purpose?  I'm just starting with Lenormand, and it's fun ...but I haven't been able to be accurate with it as a predictive tool simply because, for me anyway, the rote meanings are just not always adequate.

Maybe I'm just too tarot-oriented.  I feel like I need more cards!   

 

Different authors use different cards as generally being work. I learnt reading the Treppner course who links it to Anchor. This always burned in to my mind. I don't really see Fox summing it up in the same way, others do. The other main card authors use is Moon as well as Fox. So people tend to have one of those cards generally linked to it.

 

But as I have learnt, you can apply any of the cards to different types of work / career / profession. Fox is about survival, day to day living, money to get by. Anchor is about stability, the income and job gives you stability and security. Moon is about recognition, someone is known for their career. Bear can be a boss, can be legal, it's about power and investments. Fish is about money and resources. Ship might be an overseas job or trade. Tower working in an institution or large company. So there are different types of career or work in the cards. In a related reading, Fox might show someone is working in a fast food joint for whatever money to get by with no job security. Or they sign a contract (Ring) for their secure career with salary with the Anchor. Perhaps they want to become a famous actor and known by all (Moon). You can apply each card for a different type of work 🙂 . But if you intend to pick one card as a general work card, you need to decide on that. We all have different ones, usually from the author we most learnt from

 

edited to add:- not to get all philosophical but one part of this is how you see work and careers? For me the purpose is to provide stability and security, someone should be able to be able to use it to have a family or get a house or apartment / flat. So that is why it's generally Anchor in my head.

[Chariot]

8 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

 

Different authors use different cards as generally being work. I learnt reading the Treppner course who links it to Anchor. This always burned in to my mind. I don't really see Fox summing it up in the same way, others do. The other main card authors use is Moon as well as Fox. So people tend to have one of those cards generally linked to it.

 

 

Thanks for the explanation and ideas.  I guess some of that is why I find Lenormand difficult to use, when predicting a situation I don't know anything about.  While in some ways the cards are quite specific, in other ways they are not.  At least not for me.  It's as if we are speaking to each other, and each word we use has twelve very different meanings.  Our sentences using only nine words wouldn't make much sense, would it?  More words allow for less guesswork.  

I've been working with a merged deck (Ciro Marchetti's Fin de Siecle Kipper and his Gilded Reverie expanded Lenormand) and have found it easier to pinpoint meanings using both decks together than either deck on its own.  The Kipper deck has two cards particularly relevant to work ...Occupation (pleasant and rewarding work or hobby) and Toil&Labour (tough and exhausting work, possibly manual labour or some kind of work that is a chore) ...so when either of these come up it's a bit easier to know these are about 'work' or at least about stuff a person is occupied doing.  A Fox or one of the other cards you mentioned could indicate something about that work, but these extra Kipper cards add vocabulary, and help to pinpoint the situation being addressed.

I've just not had Lenormand click for me yet, as a predictive tool, tbh.  I can easily make connections between the cards and 'tell a story' using the layouts.  But unless I know exactly what the situation is beforehand, they don't really tell me much about a real situation that is useful.  But I AM just getting started. This may change.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Chariot

[joy]

20 minutes ago, Chariot said:

Thanks for the explanation and ideas.  I guess some of that is why I find Lenormand difficult to use, when predicting a situation I don't know anything about.  While in some ways the cards are quite specific, in other ways they are not.  At least not for me.  It's as if we are speaking to each other, and each word we use has twelve very different meanings.  Our sentences using only nine words wouldn't make much sense, would it?  More words allow for less guesswork.

 

It takes time it is like learning a new language.

 

20 minutes ago, Chariot said:

I've been working with a merged deck (Ciro Marchetti's Fin de Siecle Kipper and his Gilded Reverie expanded Lenormand) and have found it easier to pinpoint meanings using both decks together than either deck on its own.  The Kipper deck has two cards particularly relevant to work ...Occupation (pleasant and rewarding work or hobby) and Toil&Labour (tough and exhausting work, possibly manual labour or some kind of work that is a chore) ...so when either of these come up it's a bit easier to know these are about 'work' or at least about stuff a person is occupied doing.  A Fox or one of the other cards you mentioned could indicate something about that work, but these extra Kipper cards add vocabulary, and help to pinpoint the situation being addressed.

 

Kipper is quite different to Lenormand, it is similar yes, but not the same.

 

20 minutes ago, Chariot said:

I've just not had Lenormand click for me yet, as a predictive tool, tbh.  I can easily make connections between the cards and 'tell a story' using the layouts.  But unless I know exactly what the situation is beforehand, they don't really tell me much about a real situation that is useful.  But I AM just getting started. This may change.

 

Hope you are not discouraged yet 😉 Keep working with it you will get there!

[Renie]

On 8/15/2022 at 3:50 PM, joy said:

How do you read the Fox and why?

 

For me the Fox is mainly about deceit and fraud.

In my readings the Fox usually indicates:
- fraud

- cunning
- resourcefulness
- situation which looks like "A good run is better than a bad stand"
- flirtatious woman
- person who is  a doctor by profession

[zadey]

Hello,

I see it as a work card if I specifically asked for career/work and if the surrounding cards are also pointing out towards the work aspect of the topic. But in actual practice, I got it for trickery, manipulation i.e., winning something or defeating someone using manipulative tactics, lies and using other unethical practices. The foxes work for self-interest and for that reason, they're ready to dismiss moral values. Also, they make sure they're not caught while doing so, they like to keep a "good boy" image in the public. This is what I think about the fox.

[joy]

Hey @zadey interesting that you see the Fox as the work card if you do a work reading. Do you still see it than as something wrong at work/with work?

[zadey]

Hello, Joy

Based on the limited knowledge and experience that I have with Lenormand, and agreeing with a chapter in Anthony's book A Note about Which Cards Signify WORK, if a job calls for the traits that the fox has, I may use it as work card. In my personal experience, fox is associated with work because of the way people/co-workers are in our work environment. In many cases, one will find office politics, manipulation, and working for self-interest rather than supporting the co-worker in the workplace. The remaining cards should show if something's wrong at work than fox alone.

 

Edited August 17, 2023 by zadey

[joy]

Do you preselect the Fox then? For me Anchor is my work card. In my opinion it is best to know before laying the cards, what is what. I hear what you are saying about the Fox in a work situation. However I hope it is not as bad in all work places 🤪 If there is a question about work I just draw the cards and see what is coming up. And as Lenormand is read in pairs, it is important what is around the Fox if he shows up.

[zadey]

10 hours ago, joy said:

Do you preselect the Fox then? For me Anchor is my work card. In my opinion it is best to know before laying the cards, what is what. I hear what you are saying about the Fox in a work situation. However I hope it is not as bad in all work places 🤪 If there is a question about work I just draw the cards and see what is coming up. And as Lenormand is read in pairs, it is important what is around the Fox if he shows up.

 

I don't preselect the Fox for work and, same as you, I also like to see what the cards are interested in showing me regarding the work. But in my opinion, the Fox is also about skills. So, if certain work calls for a skill, I might preselect Fox. But I believe in majority of the readings, Fox may not talk about the kind of work the person does but more about the office politics, rivalry, working for self-interest, etc. At least that's what I got. lol
If the question is about work and if I really have to preselect a card to solely represent work, I think it might make sense to see if the person is working for fame, recognition, status (moon) or looking for permanent, long term and stable job (Anchor). In my experience, stability can also be a negative point in career if we don't like the situation or the job we're in. 

[joy]

Hey @zadey right and totally agree with you that Moon is reputation in a job and Anchor stability. Yes Fox of course is a skillful animal, one that selfishly protects its children and itself. So sometimes those skills are needed in a job. So far I have not preselected cards I prefer to see what shows up.

[Misterei]

On 8/16/2022 at 6:09 AM, joy said:

...  the Fox is the first card it could also mean: wrong question, think about your question again.

This is an interesting take.

Meanwhile, I'm struggling with Fox and it's stalking me. It's in every reading for the past few days.

 

One confusion is I first learned it as the Work card. Rana George suggests only to go to the "fraud" meaning if the work meaning doesn't apply. The other books I use give it definitively as a sly, tricky, etc. and say its NOT a work card. *sigh*

 

And then there's foxes themselves. The Fox in the Henhouse. Yes, we people hate that a fox might sneak in and kill our beloved chickens ... but it's just trying to survive. And then there came the whole British foxhunt thing ... which seems brutal and made me sympathetic to the fox!

 

Medically it can be a misdiagnosis or hidden condition.

 

In my daily draw today ... nond of these meanings seemed to apply [except maybe hidden condtion]  and I began to wonder if it was a timing card meaning 2 weeks [14 days]. Which is somewhat pertinent to my situation.

 

Which led me to another question about LN in general ... WHICH meaning to pick? How do we know when to take a card simply as a timing card? But I guess this would be a whole other topic.

[joy]

@Misterei Ok let me split up my answer

 

35 minutes ago, Misterei said:

One confusion is I first learned it as the Work card. Rana George suggests only to go to the "fraud" meaning if the work meaning doesn't apply. The other books I use give it definitively as a sly, tricky, etc. and say its NOT a work card. *sigh*

 

Which one is the work card is really hard discussed everywhere. In my opinion it is important to stick to one card as your working card.

 

38 minutes ago, Misterei said:

And then there's foxes themselves. The Fox in the Henhouse. Yes, we people hate that a fox might sneak in and kill our beloved chickens ... but it's just trying to survive. And then there came the whole British foxhunt thing ... which seems brutal and made me sympathetic to the fox!

I hear you, but I think we have to forget about our sympathy.... 🤣 Some people like snakes and mice... so then it would become really difficult to read....

 

 

39 minutes ago, Misterei said:

In my daily draw today ... nond of these meanings seemed to apply [except maybe hidden condtion]  and I began to wonder if it was a timing card meaning 2 weeks [14 days]. Which is somewhat pertinent to my situation.

 

 

Dailies are difficult, as they are very general. If I do dailies, then I still add a question. Like how will my work, meeting, shopping etc. go.
If you do a daily I can not see how this would then become a timing card? And timing with Lenormand is difficult, I think one has to charge the cards before.

Dailies can sometimes be very basic. Maybe you saw a red cat jumping up a tree gazing at the stars? Fox - Tree - Star 😅

[Misterei]

26 minutes ago, joy said:

... we have to forget about our sympathy.... 🤣 Some people like snakes and mice... so then it would become really difficult to read....

LOL good point.

 

 <<Dailies are difficult, as they are very general. ...>>

 

Yes. I never did daily readings as a Tarot student [sooo many years ago]. I'm still getting a feel for how they work.

 

<<Dailies can sometimes be very basic. Maybe you saw a red cat jumping up a tree gazing at the stars? >>

 

Yes, I've had them be literal. A few days ago ... I spent the day with my cats [fox] indoors b/c we were blocked from going outside [mountain] due to cloudy cold weather [clouds].

 

Possibly like Tarot ... I may have to assign my own meanings to some cards and 'timing cards'. In tarot I mostly stick to traditional methods ... but i have a few that are mine and work for me. I think LN must be similar.

Edited April 17, 2024 by Misterei

[joy]

@Misterei I love your daily with the cats and staying indoors.

 

I am a traditionalist when it comes to LN. But there is nothing about timing in the original Lenormand sheet. Therefore I agree with you. Do your thing and just observe if it works out.

[Misterei]

#14 FOX. Selfish vs. malicious?  It's a difficult card to read. It has SO MANY meanings and there are times when multiple meanings all seem to apply in the same spread! Here is my list so far---and there are moments when *any* of these might apply. Which is d^mn confusing as its a broad spectrum.

 

2 weeks, work, something wrong, selfish, manipulative, dishonesty, deception, fraud, trickery, consultants [clever people at work], cats, red heads

 

So far in my reads, the flavor of Fox isn't necessarily as negative as it is for some readers. As dishonesty it's been more about selfishness than back-stabbing. In short it's more *selfish* than *malicious*.

 

Do YOU read fox as malice? Or just selfishness? Other comments on reading this complex card?

Edited July 25, 2024 by Misterei

[pacificwaters]

On 7/25/2024 at 11:12 PM, Misterei said:

So far in my reads, the flavor of Fox isn't necessarily as negative as it is for some readers. As dishonesty it's been more about selfishness than back-stabbing. In short it's more *selfish* than *malicious*.

 

Do YOU read fox as malice? Or just selfishness? Other comments on reading this complex card?

Makes sense. Fox can be about selfishness. However for malice or back stabbing, Snake could be a better card! 

[Misterei]

9 hours ago, pacificwaters said:

... for malice or back stabbing, Snake could be a better card! 

So far Snake is always female doctors or nurses giving me injections.

I think I've had her ONCE as a back-stabby frenemy.

Fox and Snake are *different& for me.

 

@pacificwaters

On another note---are you still doing the horary readings?

I'd love one if yes.

I'm a vedic astrologer but I don't do horary. My practice is natal and then mixing the astrology with Tarot. I would LOVE to get a horary.

[joy]

2 hours ago, Misterei said:

 

@pacificwaters

On another note---are you still doing the horary readings?

I'd love one if yes.

I'm a vedic astrologer but I don't do horary. My practice is natal and then mixing the astrology with Tarot. I would LOVE to get a horary.

Hey @Misterei

Can you please ask in @pacificwaters threads? Otherwise we leave the topic here...

Thanks.

 

 

[Siri5]

Really old thread, but I'm only starting out with Lenormand. 

 

I find the Fox tricky too, but in some ways it reminds me of the 7 of Swords in Tarot. Lots of bad meanings circulating about that one too, but I don't tend to read it as negative per se. It can be negative, no doubt about it, so it could be deceit, betrayal, trickery, dishonesty in the worst way, BUT there are many ways in which one can be less than truthful. For instance - It's possible to not be 100% honest to spare someone's feelings for example, and that would not necessarily be such a bad thing, no? There are so many instances in anyone's life where we are not totally transparent, and this in itself doesn't have to be linked to malice, or ill intent at all. It can be politeness, or reading the room, or judging something as not appropriate to say, or to spare either the other person or oneself pain and humiliation, etc. Also, the 7 of Swords also, to me, is a card of imaginative problem-solving. Rather than face something head-on, it's about finding a less confrontational way to get to where you want to go. 

 

I think I see the Fox in a similar way. The fox is a cunning, clever animal. It's not, however, an evil animal, it simply has a good survival instinct. This may mean that at times it can be a little sneaky, or non-confrontational in the way it approaches situations, but I would not judge it to be malicious per se, or cunning in a way that deliberately wishes to hurt others or cause them pain. So in itself I don't see it as a negative card. 

[DanielJUK]

Here in London we have Foxes all over the place as wild animals. They are a very divisive subject between people and households fall out in streets over them. Some people put out food for them (spoiler alert: you shouldn't feed wildlife in a city) and some people take measures to get them out of their gardens at night. They are clever and cunning, they are beautiful to see. Their red cheeky faces and watch them moving around. However if they have cubs in your garden, it's a total nightmare! Also if you have pets, like cats or chickens or something outdoors, they could be dangerous to them. A friend in the country had a caged area of 20 chickens and one night, a fox came and slaughtered them all. Like why be that malevolent? Why not take a few, to feed your family of cubs? Instead, it's a mass bloodshed and they only take some away. Another friend had foxes stalking her 2 cats, she had to be so careful letting them out and had to seal the cat flap at sunset before they came out. They brought so much stress to her life and she got a wildlife charity expert guy to come for advice and the advice for measures to make them hate your garden to get rid of them 😕 

 

This is why Foxes get a bad image. They can be a total pest and hard to get rid of from your property. But also people love them and think they are so cute!

 

In 2022, there was a Mother and 2 cubs coming in to my garden. It was so wonderful to see, the cubs were so fun and quite white coated! Like a grey colour. It was fun to watch them grow up but also they caused destruction in many household's gardens in the street. It's a tough life to be a Fox Cub and so that is why they have those amazing survival skills. They have come to many UK cities because there is such great food around everywhere!

 

The Fox only thinks of itself, so you absolutely shouldn't trust someone that comes up in a reading associated with this card. They do not have your best interests to heart.

[joy]

Totally agree with @DanielJUK, we should never trust the Fox. One has to bear in mind, when Lenormand was made. In the old days, people did not have mice or snakes as pets. And if there were foxes around the house, nobody would feed them, but rather shoot them.

No offense, please, but lately many people want to sugar coat things and find excuses why someone, for example, is lying.
And with Lenormand the cards have to be read in combinations. Yes I agree, sometimes, the Fox could show cleverness. But be aware of its deceitful side.

[Siri5]

2 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

The Fox only thinks of itself, so you absolutely shouldn't trust someone that comes up in a reading associated with this card. They do not have your best interests to heart.

I totally agree - as a survival artist you will not be the fox's first priority, if you make the list at all. They are survivors and as such they look after themselves, so I think that is something important to bear in mind if the fox turns up in relation to a person. It's not that they actively mean you harm, but they are protecting themselves, first and foremost, and it's important to remember that because it puts huge limits on what you can expect of them in the given situation.

 

2 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

A friend in the country had a caged area of 20 chickens and one night, a fox came and slaughtered them all. Like why be that malevolent?

Here I would disagree, not because it's not horrific (it is!) but because I think it's nature, not evil. And the fox here is not so different from a cat (arguably more cruel, since they will play with their prey for hours - and I say this as someone who loves and owns cats, but they really are psychopaths), or indeed a dog, man's 'best friend'. Friends of ours kept ducks and their terrier got into their enclosure twice. Each time he killed the entire flock, not to eat them, obviously, just because his prey drive dictated that he'd not stop before they stopped moving and trying to get away from him. It was truly awful, but I still would not say that he was malevolent, he just did what his prey drive dictated, which was to kill these animals flapping around him. Obviously the enclosure is an artificial environment - in a natural setting this would never occur since no dog or fox would ever encounter that many animals in such close proximity and with no chance of getting away. I'm obviously not arguing that this isn't horrendous, it is! But malevolent? Probably not, since it's not done with the intent to do harm to you, be cruel to you for the sake of it, or to upset you - it's done out of instinct with no thought for you at all! 

[Siri5]

15 minutes ago, joy said:

Totally agree with @DanielJUK, we should never trust the Fox. One has to bear in mind, when Lenormand was made. In the old days, people did not have mice or snakes as pets. And if there were foxes around the house, nobody would feed them, but rather shoot them.

No offense, please, but lately many people want to sugar coat things and find excuses why someone, for example, is lying.
And with Lenormand the cards have to be read in combinations. Yes I agree, sometimes, the Fox could show cleverness. But be aware of its deceitful side.

No offense taken at all, and I don't disagree! As @DanielJUK pointed out, foxes are not trustworthy, whether they are in your back garden, or wether they turn up in a Lenormand spread 😉 . As a survivor their first priority will always be their own survival and their own interest. 

[Ferrea]

4 hours ago, Siri5 said:

Really old thread, but I'm only starting out with Lenormand. 

 

I find the Fox tricky too, but in some ways it reminds me of the 7 of Swords in Tarot. Lots of bad meanings circulating about that one too, but I don't tend to read it as negative per se. It can be negative, no doubt about it, so it could be deceit, betrayal, trickery, dishonesty in the worst way, BUT there are many ways in which one can be less than truthful. For instance - It's possible to not be 100% honest to spare someone's feelings for example, and that would not necessarily be such a bad thing, no? There are so many instances in anyone's life where we are not totally transparent, and this in itself doesn't have to be linked to malice, or ill intent at all. It can be politeness, or reading the room, or judging something as not appropriate to say, or to spare either the other person or oneself pain and humiliation, etc. Also, the 7 of Swords also, to me, is a card of imaginative problem-solving. Rather than face something head-on, it's about finding a less confrontational way to get to where you want to go. 

 

I think I see the Fox in a similar way. The fox is a cunning, clever animal. It's not, however, an evil animal, it simply has a good survival instinct. This may mean that at times it can be a little sneaky, or non-confrontational in the way it approaches situations, but I would not judge it to be malicious per se, or cunning in a way that deliberately wishes to hurt others or cause them pain. So in itself I don't see it as a negative card. 

 

Thank you for this post! I wholeheartedly agree with your take on the fox. For me, the resemblance to the 7 of Swords became apparent when the word "strategy" in relation to the fox card in a reading slipped into my mind.
My keywords are strategy, self-interest/self-preservation, cunningness/craftiness. And you added an important one: avoidance. Really, that's an aspect I've missed so far. Thank you! 

[pacificwaters]

On 9/26/2024 at 4:21 PM, DanielJUK said:

The Fox only thinks of itself, so you absolutely shouldn't trust someone that comes up in a reading associated with this card. They do not have your best interests to heart.

This is an apt line to sum up the Fox card 🙂