Page of Ghosts Posted January 6, 2018 Posted January 6, 2018 Thanks for all the input guys it really means a lot. how many cards have you already finished, 52ravens? And are you into witchcraft or Wicca? I have the Major Arcana done along with the court of wands. But I'm hoping that as this was my starting point (as I've done them in order) this card will be the worst offender for going a little rouge. Fingers crossed the rest of the cards will sit better with the meaning. I will be honest, I'm neither into witchcraft or wicca on a serious level. I enjoy the mythology and hoped the blend of witches and tarot would fuel some nice artwork. This is why I need help from you guys to make sure that the design is doing exactly what you need it to. I can research all I like but the knowledge of people that use them day in and day out is so important in the processes of getting it right. what made you decide to do an all female deck? And how are you planning on addressing the ‘male’ or masculine archetypes that are a part of the traditional system? The name is something that came about from my playing card project "The Coven", this was an all female deck of playing cards. My next deck "The Sisterhood of Blood" followed an all female vampire theme, and so I was looking to create a new deck of cards but felt that the name and the ideas didn't fit with the designs for playing cards but as a tarot deck I could have a lot of fun. I'm hoping that the kings and other masculine cards can be overlooked by gender and take that queue from the card name. Do you think this would be possible? I've been playing around today and hopefully I'll have a new version to look at soon. Maybe after this one I should post 3 or 4 at once to get things really moving ;D A lot of decks play around with the titles for the court cards so you could give them a different name that reflects their function and what they do rather than the standard medieval hierarchy in the Page, Knight, Queen and King ;) I agree that you don't necessarily must be a tarot master to make a usable tarot deck. There is our pal Scapini who made a very nice and usable tarot deck in the Medieval Scapini, there are artists where they used their portofolio as art for a tarot deck, where the artwork wasn't made with tarot in mind (I think the Ceccoli Tarot is one of these decks), and some decks who are very non-traditional and still work well. Personally I like a deck to choose what it wants to be and explain why the imagery is changed if it doesn't do a specific tradition and looks very different from anything existing... Basically have a guidebook, I love good guidebooks where I can read what the artist had in mind. But, as EmpyreanKnight says, we're a very different bunch and have different opnions about this. I gotta say that I don't think it would hurt to gain some basic knowledge about tarot and symbology so you know a little about what you add or remove with your design choices.
katrinka Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Hi, it's me from the other forum. You seem to be getting more replies here, it looks like we're all seeing similar issues. The Fool should be a bit of a madwoman, on the move. Not quite Bertha on the roof of Thornfield hall, that was suicide. Just someone oblivious. There's a deeper meaning, that the person is about to fall into matter. That's the Hermetic/Occult thing people are always on about, Kether going to Chokmah. Who wants to leave undifferentiated consciousness and come into a world where we have to get jobs and pay bills and get sick and wait for the nukes? It really is like falling off a cliff or walking into the jaws of a crocodile. The Fool doesn't consider that, he just goes. I will be honest, I'm neither into witchcraft or wicca on a serious level. I enjoy the mytholo gy and hoped the blend of witches and tarot would fuel some nice artwork. This is why I need help from you guys to make sure that the design is doing exactlywhat you need it to. I can research all I like but the knowledge of people that use them day in and day out is so important in the processes of getting it right. Speaking for myself, I don't care for hyperpagan Tarots. Some do, but not all. The Tarot is a product of Christian Europe. No, I'm not Christian, either, but that's the symbolism used to communicate the concepts. The concepts themselves are universal, but putting antlers and pointy hats on people always seems to come off as force-fitted. If you visit enough forums, you'll find that there tend to be knowledgeable readers at the card-centered ones like this, but when you go to actual Wiccan/pagan forums, the "Divination" section is generally full of people who can't read their way out of a wet paper sack. They talk about the new decks they got, they talk about "cleansing" them and keeping crystals with them, but they don't know the first thing about them. Wicca is not part and parcel of reading cards. what made you decide to do an all female deck? And how are you planning on addressing the ‘male’ or masculine archetypes that are a part of the traditional system? The name is something that came about from my playing card project "The Coven", this was an all female deck of playing cards. My next deck "The Sisterhood of Blood" followed an all female vampire theme, and so I was looking to create a new deck of cards but felt that the name and the ideas didn't fit with the designs for playing cards but as a tarot deck I could have a lot of fun. I'm hoping that the kings and other masculine cards can be overlooked by gender and take that queue from the card name. Do you think this would be possible? It can be overlooked by those of us who read purely by card meanings. A lot of people read visually, though, at least to some extent. TBH, I don't know how you're going to manage it. The Fool can be male or female, but the Kings and Knights? They represent men in a reading. Maybe make it heavily feminine but leave a few men in there? I've been playing around today and hopefully I'll have a new version to look at soon. Maybe after this one I should post 3 or 4 at once to get things really moving ;D I hope you get this deck worked out, because I really like the artistry. (And I LIKE seeing the texture of the canvas, as well.) And you're doing the right thing by going around and asking questions. That's how the Bonefire was done. Ciro Marchetti did it for his Lenormand and his Kipper decks. I just think some study might be in order. ;)
katrinka Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Btw, in the original Golden Dawn system, the Fool card has a wolf tho the Fool himself is depicted by a baby. Here is the Fool card from the Golden Dawn Magical Tarot by the Ciceros, which I also have among my working decks. I like this. It's not what people are used to (and that's a consideration for a new deck artist) but it says what it needs to say. And a wolf is fine, any canine or feline with sharp teeth. 52ravens, some old images for your consideration/inspiration: And some newer Fool cards: Seeing a common thread here? They're all hobo types and/or endangering themselves. And every one of them most likely has psych issues. ;D
Raggydoll Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Seeing a common thread here? They're all hobo types and/or endangering themselves. And every one of them most likely has psych issues. ;D I think this 'likely psych issues'-part that we all tend to see in the Fool archetype might just be our own shadows that taint our view of complete innocence and inexperience. But then again, its just me speculating and trying to be philosophical before even having my first cup of morning coffee 8) (Loved all the pictures you shared, by the way, and now I'm off to think about which is my favorite depiction of the Fool - and have a cup of coffee)
katrinka Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Seeing a common thread here? They're all hobo types and/or endangering themselves. And every one of them most likely has psych issues. ;D I think this 'likely psych issues'-part that we all tend to see in the Fool archetype might just be our own shadows that taint our view of complete innocence and inexperience. But then again, its just me speculating and trying to be philosophical before even having my first cup of morning coffee 8) Well yeah. An unembodied stream of consciousness doesn't have a brain to scramble. Or a concept of 'gravity'. Those are kind of hard to draw, though. ;D (Loved all the pictures you shared, by the way, and now I'm off to think about which is my favorite depiction of the Fool - and have a cup of coffee) Coffee is a wonderful idea. One more image before I make a pot for myself: Austin Osman Spare's Fool, in all its Wirthy splendor. (Someone please print this deck!)
Ephemeridae Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 This artwork is beautiful but the soul of the fool isn't in it. She is pensive, she's being held back, and too much of what lies ahead is known to her, she sees too far. Tarot images are much more than just artwork, they speak an entirely unique symbolic language. Many Fool cards are missing the traditional imagery but still get the point across. Maybe there isn't a cliff, maybe there isn't a canine companion. But there is always a sense of impulsiveness, and ignorance, but also of new beginnings and a grand sense of forward momentum and adventure. I think it's important to remember that every image in the tarot is symbolic. It is not a literal cliff, it's a metaphor for the unknown. A good place to start might be doing a comparative study of more non-traditional artwork, and really get a feel for the metaphorical language each card is speaking. As far as the gender issue goes, I do not see a problem at all with an all-female deck. I think female humans are capable of embodying and feeling all of the possible expressions of humanity on the feminine-to-masculine scale. I personally wouldn't be upset to see a female monarch on a card still called "King."
Ephemeridae Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I've come to the conclusion that we NEED more modern depictions of the fool with his pants down
Raggydoll Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I agree that the Wild Unknown depiction portrays a very different energy and it is not one of my favorites in that aspect (though it is certainly pretty). I think it's important to consider Waites views on the Fool versus the Sun - if one follows the RWS tradition. He saw the child on the Sun card and the Fool as two aspects of the same archetype (well, as two sides of Christ, actually). To quote him: "The [sun-] child is fair like the Fool, and like the Fool, wears a wreath and red feather... The child is naked, in accordance with an old Quabalistic saying that Spirit clothes itself to come down, and divests itself of the garments of matter to go up". (This quote was made known in Paul Foster Cases book, and it is thought to have been part of the very first edition of The Pictorial Key, but was then edited out. There is much more to the original quote, this is a really shortened version) So, in his views, it would be important to have the Fool depicted as a clothed more adult (complicated) version (as Jesus might have to appeared to his non-followers), while the Sun child should be naked and more obviously innocent (and appear as more uncomplicated to the rest of us). I am not a Christian myself, but I still find all this very interesting as it was an important part of Waites (and Pamela's) vision. I however do respect and understand that some people find the religious origins of Tarot to be irrelevant or perhaps disturbing and may wish to downplay or totally ignore that bit. That's fine. To each their own, I say.
Raggydoll Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 And as far as the "all female" theme goes, it sure can be done - in fact it has already been done. But it's important to differentiate between not depicting any actual males and choosing to exclude all male energies (like an all yin and no yang kind of thing). The first one will 'only' limit your market while the latter might seriously impact the usefulness of your deck, in my opinion. I do encourage you to post pictures of several cards the next time so that we all get a better overview of what your deck might look like.
52ravens Posted January 7, 2018 Author Posted January 7, 2018 THANK YOU ALL FOR THE REPLIES, IF I DON'T RESPOND TO YOU DIRECTLY KNOW EVERY POST IS A GREATLY APPRECIATED :D I'm so happy this has sparked such a great response, you guys love to talk haha! Thank you! Below is the adapted artwork, I wanted to get your opinions on this version before changing the woman/card completely. So now we have a cliff, she's stepping forwards, her arm is out and her head is slightly up and hopefully shows that she is a little carefree and oblivious to the danger. The wolf is looking up to suggest that the companion can see the impending danger. I did try to have the wolf pulling her back but it looked too aggressive for the tone of the artwork. I've kept the background as I feel it helps to show the journey ahead of the fool. I'm happy with this version as it collects all the suggestions but still have its own individuality compared direct to other fool cards, what do you think? I'll post post 2 cards next, and after that I'll post 3 at once as it'll be easier because of the collective layout I have Regarding the theme, there are so many cards (not wanting to only do the Major Arcana), so calling it The Witches of the Crescent Moon I hope to make each card a glimpse at one of the member of the coven, each with their own story. Like the Wiccan world today, it isn't a small coven, it stretches across the world and even through the belief differs in places, it is still part of one collective group. So the 'Crescent Moon' is the club and the cards show its members. Hi, it's me from the other forum. Hello! Thanks for the input on both sites, I'll continue to post on both to get as much help as possible, but feel free to reply on one site haha. I love the style for Austin Osman Spare's Fool card. Check out this link:http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/pagan-wiccan.shtml Thank you, I've had a good look through and its given me some ideas, its just a shame it only a small selection of image for each deck
katrinka Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I won't copypaste from over there, but I want to say here that I like this one. It's not completely standard, but she's not paying attention to the wolf, who looks worried, and she's not paying attention to the drop in front of her, either. IOW, oblivious. It reminds me a bit of Clarissa Pinkola Estes' idea of the wolf as instinct, which is actually a great fit for a female-centric deck. It all fits, for me.
Raggydoll Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I’m gonna comment on the actual art this time :) What strikes me when looking more closely is that both her arms look like they are in an awkward and unnatural position (her left arm-position would probably require a hyper mobile shoulder and elbow, while the lower part of her right arm looks a bit fractured, to be honest. The shading also feel a bit off. There doesn’t seem to be a consistent light source?). I can tell that you are doing your work digitally, but are you working from photo references? (That’s the feeling I get) And are you lacking a real life model? If that’s the case then you might want to stand in front of a mirror and try to mimic her position. I bet your left arm would get numb after a little while. When I do portraits or artwork with humans in it, I always work with real people as references (I often take pictures so I can continue my work without having an actual person having to sit in front of me for hours at a time ;))
Padma Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 I don't think you need to be a tarot reader to make a deck. I would strongly encourage you to continue! Beautiful artwork like your own should be seen :D (in fact - the beauty of the artwork is what causes me personally to buy a deck. I don't give a fig about astrological associations and all the rest, and it never stopped me from reading accurately - much as EmpyreanKnight stated, not everyone is into the history and literature of the various influences throughout time on tarot reading/card art/symbolism). The many details and colours you put in your card will also be pleasing for those readers who enjoy reading intuitively, based merely on the artwork. PS Personally, I detest the ugly old fools with their pants down. I much, much MUCH prefer your take! You go! And don't let anyone stop you!
Page of Ghosts Posted January 7, 2018 Posted January 7, 2018 Oh I like this wolf! He looks like he's wondering what the hell that girl is doing, ready to walk straight out from that cliff ;D
EmpyreanKnight Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 Your revised Fool is definitely an improvement on the previous one, 52ravens. I like it even more now. Also, there are some all-male Tarot decks, two of which I used in the recent Sacred Days group, so all-female ones don't faze me. Like some of the others here tho, I'm just curious as to how you'd depict cards that express unequivocally masculine energies. And lol Page of Ghosts, I like the wolf too. It's as if he wants to say "Are you sure you wanna go that way? Because that's a cliff right there, like just a few steps ahead of ya."
52ravens Posted January 8, 2018 Author Posted January 8, 2018 Below are the next two cards, I'm hoping that I've got closer to the meanings for these compared to the fool. Let me know what you guys think and if there are any obvious problems. Thanks for all your help :D
Little Fang Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 I love how this deck is looking! :-* One minor little critique is perhaps coloring one of the pillars in the High Priestess black, as in traditional RWS cards, but it's not necessary for me. Otherwise, I look forward to seeing this finished!
Padma Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 Myself, I think if the pillars were black, it would be too too heavy, and drag the whole image down. As a fellow artist and graphic designer, I think 52Ravens chose well in his/her colour scheme. It works! It is balanced and airy, and the flow leads the eye properly around the image. Love the crescent moon off to the side. Gorgeous cards - I can say right now I would defs buy this deck! I love the ecstasy the Magician is showing, too :)
RavenOfSummer Posted January 8, 2018 Posted January 8, 2018 Really beautiful artwork, 52ravens! Just a question for you, and I don't think anyone has asked you this one yet...are you planning to include any women of color in your deck? I love the idea of an all-women deck, but I also really love diversity in a tarot deck, so from my perspective it would be wonderful to see a variety of women with different backgrounds in such a deck. I notice that so far the cards all feature white women. Of course there's nothing wrong with that, and you may even have a specific reason for featuring only white women- if your deck specifically wants to draw on old traditions from a European culture, for example- but just thought I would ask whether this is something you have considered and what your plans are around diversity for your deck. Other types of diversity you might consider including for your all-women deck include age- it looks like you already have some of that in the cards you've shown- and body type. I assume since you are doing an all-women deck, that your Lovers card will feature a lesbian couple? If so, I think that is awesome- that's another type of diversity that we need more of in tarot! Also, I agree with others who have said they don't see any issue with an all-female deck. We all have masculine and feminine energy within us. Your women kings, for example, can absolutely embody male energy.
Ncharge Posted January 9, 2018 Posted January 9, 2018 I love, Love, LOVE your artwork. I want this deck when it is finished. You are quite an artist.
faerybraids Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 I LOVE your Magician! Okay, that out of the way: I'm not the huuuuugest fan of the new Fool card, but mainly because something feels a bit off about it. I want to say it's something to do with her torso and how she's angled, or maybe as Raggydoll mentioned it could be her arms. (I've held my left arm out like that myself when I was living in a campervan, usually accompanied by a twirl, so I love the idea of it in the picture, but I think either the shoulder's slightly off or the wrist is.) Another quibble: Are you conflating witchcraft and Wicca? Like, is your deck going to show witches of all sorts, or mainly witches who also happen to be Wiccans? I'm a witch, but not a Wiccan, and it's a personal pet peeve of mine when things are branded "witchy" or "for witches" when everything about it is Wiccan or stems from Wiccan imagery/beliefs/etc. (I hope I'm not coming across harshly, I'm genuinely curious.) Also, echoing RavenOfSummer, what sorts of diversity are you planning on incorporating? :D (Somewhat along those lines, did you intend your Fool to be white, as RavenOfSummer guessed? I actually took her as East Asian. Maybe it's because she reminds me of a friend of mine from high school, especially in that dress...)
DownUnderNZer Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 Both cards are cool, but... The hair color of the MAGICIAN needs to be changed because it is the exact same color as all the other reds in it With the HIGH PRIESTESS, why is she to the side? It is like the pillars stand out for me in that card and she is not the main focus at all. The artwork is great though! Below are the next two cards, I'm hoping that I've got closer to the meanings for these compared to the fool. Let me know what you guys think and if there are any obvious problems. Thanks for all your help :D
Starlight Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 The RWS system is the one I'm most familiar with, so I can only view the cards through that lens. The Magician, in the RWS system, points at both heaven and earth (as above, so below). The Magician - and it is a lovely card! - is very focused on the heaven part. Arms outstretched with palms upturned and face raised. The Magician is about making things happen, getting things done. He is active. The Magician in this card seems to be accepting whatever heaven sends forth. The tools on her altar don't seem to serve a purpose - actually, the feeling I'm getting is that she's used the tools solely to get closer to a greater power. And that's her final destination. She doesn't appear to have any interest in the manifesting-on-earth side of things in this card. She's purely focused on heaven or the divine. What I'm trying to say is that we're looking at a moment where her attention is only on one realm, not both. Does that make sense? In the High Priestess card, she traditionally sits between two pillars, one black and one white. She not closer to one or the other. She's also sitting which echoes the fact that the High Priestess is not an active card, and it's a different energy from the Magician in that way. What is the significance of the red curtain half pulled back? Is she inviting the querent or the reader to pass through? The HP is about secrets, the unknown, the subconscious, and this HP looks to be revealing what is usually not revealed in the RWS deck. In terms of artwork, though, it's lovely to look at. :) These are not criticisms, btw. They're just my thoughts when I look at the images. :)
Ncharge Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 I don't like the way the High Priestess seems to be praying. She is the Guardian of the secrets. She is the Gatekeeper - the head honcho. She is the judge on who can discover which secrets - who can pass the veil. I miss that guardian/judge aspect in this card. She seems to be giving up her authority to a higher power.
Saturn Celeste Posted January 10, 2018 Posted January 10, 2018 I absolutely agree with RavenOfSummer[/member]. Diversity is important. Body types, color, ethnic cultures it all adds depth to your deck. As for your pillars on the High Priestess card, it's usually the left pillar that is black, the other one white. If possible I suggest shifting the black dabs you have around the right pillar over to the other pillar instead. You don't have to color it all black, just shroud it in black dabs like you have now, they're just on the wrong pillar. ;) Your artwork is really lovely! If you don't have a tarot book or deck, I do suggest you buy one. I always recommend this deck, https://www.amazon.com/Llewellyns-Classic-Tarot-Barbara-Moore/dp/0738736082/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1515602809&sr=1-4&keywords=Llewellyn+tarot It's no longer on Prime I see but the book is really good that comes with it! Read about the key elements each card has and try to incorporate some of them into your images. For example, returning to the Fool card. The dog is tugging at the Fools leg to hold him back, to prevent him from walking off the cliff into the unknown but the Fool pays no heed to the dog. That's why the card is usually depicted not showing what lays beyond the cliff BUT you did adjust your Fool beautifully, we still don't know what's in all of those trees and the look on your wolf's face is awesome! There are a ton of art decks out there where the deck creator just slapped on an artist's image without connection to the actual meaning of the card. At least you are aware of this and listening to others. You're off to a great start! ;D
Recommended Posts