Opinions on the artwork for new deck please!

[Carojulie]

Hello 52Ravens,

 

First of all, I wish to compliment you on your work, and on the way you accept to put your work forward open to criticism, and for all the efforts you put into this project.

 

A lot has been said to you regarding these first three cards here, and I believe that the most important advice that you can take from this thread, is that it might be a huge help to you if you take some time to learn a little bit of the archetypes in tarot, and if you learn to read at least at some basic level.

 

It has also been said that not all good tarot decks have been designed by people who knew tarot, and that is probably true to some level (I am not a specialist on that point)

But I still do think that these are somewhat "the exceptions wich confirm the rule", and that many, if not most, good modern decks are made by people who know their traditional tarot basics,  and are readers themselves.

 

And, let's face it : there is today a HUGE array of decks to choose from, and many decks that are in the making just right now.. And the tarot community and the witchy community are only that large, and make up the most of the  buyers for a new deck. So, I do think it would give you a head start if you make sure that the cards you design resonate with what is expected of the RWS meanings (because obviously, from what you have shown us, your deck is strongly rooted in RWS tradition). As it has been said, a deck do not need to be a RWS clone to convey the RWS meanings. But I think you need to make sure that the traditional meanings, or at least some part of them,  are present in your cards.

 

You obviously have chosen to work in the RWS tradition. Looking at your cards, I suppose that you took the traditional RWS card to be the structure of your image, and you redraw it in your own style. This is a perfectly good way to work, and perfectly acceptable.

But, from what I see here, I suspect that you did not really understood the key meaning of each card and how this meaning was conveyed in the RWS model.

I personnaly do not see the meanings I expect when I look at your Magician and your High Priestess.

 

To me, the Magician MAKES things happen and work with his mind and his tools to  manifest results. He does not stand still giving thanks to the universe, nor waiting to receive bounties from the gods. Rather, he makes whatever he needs right there and then with the tools he has. He has learned to masted his tools, and he USES them. He is the MAKER, and sometimes even the TRICKSTER.

 

When I think of the High Priestess, I expect to see the Guardian of Secrets. The one who will teach me to think and be patient, to learn the value of waiting, to take the time to listen to my deep intuition. She KNOWS, and she KEEPS the SECRETS. She is in no hurry. She keeps sacred things guarded. She is firmly seated right between those pillars and makes sure that no undeserving one can steal a glimpse of what lay beyond this veil ; and when you come to her and ask her the answer to your question, she doesn't answer right away ; first she assesses you with her sharp eye and mysterious Mona Lisa smile. She teaches you to be patient and to learn your worth. She doesnt stand aside and close her eyes and let everybody sneak past her to the veil (I entirely agree with what Ncharge has said here)

 

EmpyreanKnight has written to beware of gathering all advices from all of us here, regarding what detail mush appear on a card and which detail must be taken off.

He said that it would equal to a sauce being spoilt by too many cooks, and that is so correct.

Here we can only tell you what details WE, as individuals, would change to make a card better suited to the meaning WE attribute to it.

But I am not sure that by listening to so many voices, you will manage to create good cards that will still reflect your own meaning.

 

Here are my advices, and please take what makes sense to you and just disregard the rest :

 

- either gather some deeper knowledge of the archetypes and the meaning of the cards - and that will take some time (take the advice of the High Priestess and do take the needed time) ; OR partner with someone who does already have a solid basic knowledge of tarot. Such partnerships are  common in tarot deck creation : one is the designer and the other is the illustrator. That will prevent your deck from being "scattered" as it would probably end up being, if you only listen to the many voices here on a forum.

 

- Use a few books as helpers. One book I think of, is the Ultimate Guide to the Rider Waite Tarot. It is not the best  tarot book I have read because it is not a complete guide to the tarot, but in this occasion I think it could be very useful to you, from the way the book is made up. It shows, in each RWS card, the meanings of the card and the pictorial details that convey this meaning. First of all, it can help you understand how tarot readers interpret the cards and where they take the meanings from. And it will help you make use of images to convey meaning. It will also help you understand the most frequent symbols found in RWS images and their meanings (mountains, bridges, birds......)

You absolutely do not have to copy the images of the RWS nor copy these meanings found in the book, but I am sure it will help you understand what the basic reader expects in such and such card, and give you ideas of how to illustrate your meaning.

And of course, one book is nice, but several are better. I encourage you to gather at least three tarot books from three different tarot writers.

 

- Write about the cards you design and explain why you are choosing to represent such meaning through such pictorial design. It will force you to consider wisely your choices of images, and it will help your reader to understand your deck and penetrate the meaning of your work. (I rarely read a companion book cover to cover, but when I use a deck which differs from traditional representations, and I find myself looking at a card which I do not understand right away, I like to read about the card and why the artist made such choice, and what they had in mind, in the book. When it is explained, I usually enjoy it and it enlarges my vision of the card. But when it is not explained why such choice has been made, I am usually very disapointed both with the book and with the deck)

 

As has been said by other members, female only characters are not a problem for me, as long as both male and female energies and archetypes are present in the deck (Lynyrd Narciso has mastered this choice brilliantly in Vanessa Tarot, where only female characters are represented, and where cards like the Emperor and the Kings are all very well made). If you are not sure that you can convey male archetypes with only female characters, then it might be best to consider including some males in the deck rather than missing this very important point altogether.

 

And, as an addition to this post, I just want to second what FaeryBraids has said about witchery and Wicca. As you said earlier that you were neither one nor the other but were interested in the mythology, I think it is important to raise and emphasise this point. Wicca is very honorable and worthy of interest but it is rather recent, in the grand scheme of things, and it is only a small facet of what traditional craft can be and encompass (hedgewitchery, magic, paganism, witches, druidry, green magic, shamanism, old myths, old crafts, herb lore, religion and non-religion related beliefs and crafts......)

I have read in a book "witch is synonymous with wiccan", and it is not only VERY untrue, but such shortcuts can grate on the feelings of a LOT of people. Only last week a wiccan friend told me "why, if you are not a wiccan and you are neither practicing old traditional hoodoo, what are you ?" Ehrrrrrr............  taking a deep tired sight........

 

I hope I am not hurting your feelings, because that is really not my aim ! I hope to help you here, but I know that sometimes words are harsh, and I might not have written my thoughts in the best diplomatic way. I really wish to help you and hope I have not hurt you. I think you have started a wonderful project and I hope it will be successful. I think that you did not come here to only hear compliments, but more to hear constructive advice, and I hope that is what I have gven you. But once again, in the end it is YOUR deck, so just take whatever resonates with you here, and leave the rest !

 

Good luck from the bottom of my heart !

And happy new year too :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[52ravens]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE REPLIES, IF I DON'T RESPOND TO YOU DIRECTLY KNOW EVERY POST IS A GREATLY APPRECIATED  :D

 

You have all been a great help in raising some important issues that the current designs have. I love that you are all so passionate and I hope you realise how valuable that is to me as a creator. I must admit, I took the general feel of RWS and the card meaning and did my own thing. But, like some of you have mentioned, the card isn't wrong, it's just missing key points that you as readers are looking for, and instead of me rushing ahead, I'll starting over where I need to. IE, the fool is almost there but maybe the model needs looking at, the magician (though pretty) needs more structure for the 'as above so below' as she looks like she is praying, and the HP isn't guarding the curtain and again is clearly praying. SO I'll hit the books, understand the meaning and the artwork and hopefully return with 3 cards that are more useful to the trained eye.

 

As for the diversity of the women that will appear in the deck - without spoiling the process of how I create the artwork, (as we all know the disappointment of knowing how a magic trick is done and how it loses its magic.) my resources are quiet restricted by the photographers that post them. Of the cards I've done, the majority are white and young, with Asian and young following close behind, it is solely down to the available reference I have and my own skill to convert it into artwork. Young or old, fat or thin, black or white, none of these matter to me if the image fits the card I'm creating, so hopefully (though unwittingly it will be young and white) I should end up with a deck that includes a range of women, and not just one type over 78 cards. It is important, so I will be mindful.

 

I always recommend this deck

 

Thank you, I've just downloaded the app version. I like the of the ABC's feel it has, perfect :D I think between this and RWS I should have a good understanding.

 

I think that you did not come here to only hear compliments, but more to hear constructive advice

 

That is 100% correct. Don't get me wrong, if people like what they see I love to hear about it (don't we all), enthusiasm is fuel for creative people, we need it to push us on. But I'm here to make sure that I give the community a deck they can use and not just look at. Thank you for the long and thought out reply, it was very helpful.

 

I'll be back with 3 revised cards, hopefully over the weekend  ;)

[52ravens]

Hey  :D

 

Below are the revised card designs. I've been doing some reading as recommended so fingers crossed I've got it this time.

 

The Fool - Almost the same as before but the arms have been fixed to look more natural. The rest I feel fit the card under my vision, she is carefree and oblivious to the danger of the edge, while the wolf is her conscience, questioning her decisions.

 

The Magician - New model with hands pointing to indicate "as above, so below".

 

The High Priestess - New model, now centred as a guard and holding a scroll of secrets. The pillars have been slightly coloured and the tree symbol added the tapestry. There is now also the hint the the dress is becoming water to show the future is ever changing.

 

Please let me know what you think, are they still missing something?

 

Thanks for all your help  ;)

 

[faerybraids]

I like the Fool quite a bit more now. :D It's much more natural and has a serenity to it that I like. I can smell the mountain air from when I travelled without a care in the world, and it reminds me of when I first set off on that journey as well. It all just feels real (and nostalgic ;n; ) for me.

 

The Magician... Personally, I liked your first one more, but I quite like non-traditional decks so that might be why. I could feel the manifestation of will emanating from it. This one? For me, not so much. I think it's well-executed, but it just doesn't seem to click as well with me.

 

I quite like the revised High Priestess, though! :D I think the colour scheme's really nice. I do keep flip-flopping on whether I like the dress turning into water, part of me loves it and part of me sort of dislikes it. Part of the reason I like it is I find it complements the crescent moon nicely, both in colour and in placement, but as for my dislike... I'm not really sure where that's coming from. Maybe it's just intimidation because if I ever came across a person who could turn their dress into water at the bottom I'd be kissing their feet to learn their secrets. Plus she (and the dress!) are gorgeous, which intimidates me for other reasons. (Sorry I can't be more helpful there. ^^;; )

[Saturn Celeste]

Gorgeous!  I love the pillars on the Priestess, they came out great!

[katrinka]

These are much better. The Magician is a vast improvement - the first one looked manic and crazed, this one is in control. The High Priestess is also much better. My only quibble is that the tree looks a bit generic, it should allude to the Qaballah. Note how the pomegranates on the RWS version are arranged.

[Starlight]

I really like them!

 

The Magician - it's subtle, but her being half turned gives me the feeling she's dimming her power of manifestation, whereas if she's facing the onlooker full-on, I would feel as if she's standing very strongly in her power. That's just my feeling, and others may feel differently, though.

 

But other than that, I really like these first three cards. :)

[52ravens]

Thanks for all the help, I'll get the next 3 posted soon, just updating the high priest as I'm guessing this wont do

[katrinka]

Pretty - but no.

He's a go-between, a middleman. (You know how it works in Catholicism: "Can you talk to God for me?") Also dogma, etc. The Hierophant will study  dogma instead of simply accepting it, but it's still dogma.

You might even want to go a more traditional route with acolytes, since you're gender-bending but still need to get the point across:

 

 

It's a gorgeous image, but it doesn't say any of that.

[Padma]

I liked your first High Priestess better. This one looks like a Vegas showgirl. Maybe her gown could cover her a bit more? I don't know. Maybe it is the tree behind her that looks like it is a headdress. The High Priestess is not really a showgirl kind of person. She's usually fairly covered up, since she is shrouded in the mysteries of divinity. This one is pretty, yes, like all your cards are so far, but she is - brazen? Looks too worldly? Too cynical? Showing too much skin? She doesn't generate the feeling of respect one would normally think of feeling towards a high priestess, imo. Maybe it's just me, but yeah. Definite Vegas showgirl.

 

I also loved the wild freshness and joy of your original Magician. Sorry to see it go!

 

BTW...was it your intention that this deck should be exactly like the RWS in the symbolism and imagery...? Just curious.

[katrinka]

I liked your first High Priestess better. This one looks like a Vegas showgirl. Maybe her gown could cover her a bit more? I don't know. Maybe it is the tree behind her that looks like it is a headdress. The High Priestess is not really a showgirl kind of person. She's usually fairly covered up, since she is shrouded in the mysteries of divinity. This one is pretty, yes, like all your cards are so far, but she is - brazen? Looks too worldly? Too cynical? Showing too much skin? She doesn't generate the feeling of respect one would normally think of feeling towards a high priestess, imo. Maybe it's just me, but yeah. Definite Vegas showgirl.

 

Good point.

I'm not seeing Vegas Showgirl (you need giant headdresses and exposed cheeks for that!), but I am seeing a trying-to-look-as-hot-as-I-can-get-away-with-for-prom-night vibe. High school, you don't want that. Go modest, or full-on temple prostitute with snakes and psychoactive plants, lol. Your call.

 

[faerybraids]

I liked your first High Priestess better. This one looks like a Vegas showgirl. Maybe her gown could cover her a bit more? I don't know. Maybe it is the tree behind her that looks like it is a headdress. The High Priestess is not really a showgirl kind of person. She's usually fairly covered up, since she is shrouded in the mysteries of divinity. This one is pretty, yes, like all your cards are so far, but she is - brazen? Looks too worldly? Too cynical? Showing too much skin? She doesn't generate the feeling of respect one would normally think of feeling towards a high priestess, imo. Maybe it's just me, but yeah. Definite Vegas showgirl.

 

Good point.

I'm not seeing Vegas Showgirl (you need giant headdresses and exposed cheeks for that!), but I am seeing a trying-to-look-as-hot-as-I-can-get-away-with-for-prom-night vibe. High school, you don't want that. Go modest, or full-on temple prostitute with snakes and psychoactive plants, lol. Your call.

 

I'm...not sure I can un-see the high school vibe now that you've pointed it out. D: What I originally saw as confidence has been twisted into that bit of cockiness you can have as a student in high school. Hrmmm. Definitely slightly less appealing now...

 

 

52ravens[/member] I could see using a different pose helping with that at least somewhat, but I don't really think the outfit (dress, modesty level, etc.) needs to change unless you want it to. I recognise that I seem to have a vastly different perception of the matter, but I actually see this outfit as somewhat modest, myself. (I also don't fully understand why the modesty question's come into it, I fully support any depiction as long as the feel's there, though I guess that alone shows the differences in opinion you can get.) What matters most in the end is you feeling you've put your best into the card and being comfortable with the final result, regardless of what the rest of us on here say. (◕◡◕❀)

 

(Btw I love the artwork for the High Priest even if it doesn't fit the card at all. Had to say it! Would you mind if I printed it out to paste onto a notebook cover?)

[~D~]

I too would like to congratulate you on your artistic skill - the card you posted is very nicely done! (The Fool)

[Starlight]

High school prom dress - I didn't look too closely before, but I can see what the other posters are saying. The placement of the tree on the curtain doesn't help.

 

I suppose, bearing in mind that it's a wiccan or witch-themed deck, perhaps something a bit more - I dunno - medieval? might be worth looking at? Or a cloak with the hood up? Something like that?

 

Both the Magician and the HP are slightly turned to one side, and that does bother me a bit too. It's almost like they're trying to not engage directly with the querent or reader...

[Padma]

I hope (my,our) comments aren't railroading your artistic vision, 52ravens. In the end, the deck must serve your vision. One thing I learned as an artist was that you cannot please everyone, and if you try to do so, your muse evaporates :p

[52ravens]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE REPLIES, IF I DON'T RESPOND TO YOU DIRECTLY KNOW EVERY POST IS A GREATLY APPRECIATED  :D

 

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I hope (my,our) comments aren't railroading your artistic vision

 

Not at all, I know I can't please everyone but I need to feel as a product creator that I'm heading in the right direction. I don't want to be another art deck that doesn't tie in with the meaning of the card. Even if that means I move closer to the RWS layout with my twist on it. ANY OPINION HELPS haha  ;D

 

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Pretty - but no.

 

(Said with optimism) You wont be disappointed.

 

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Definite Vegas showgirl.

I'm...not sure I can un-see the high school vibe now that you've pointed it out. D:

 

Damn it, now I can't un-see that haha. I'll change it slightly.

 

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Would you mind if I printed it out to paste onto a notebook cover?

 

Not at all, pop me a PM with your email and I'll send you a higher quality version  :D

 

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BTW...was it your intention that this deck should be exactly like the RWS in the symbolism and imagery...? Just curious.

 

No, but after listening to what the community are looking for I'm using it as a base and twisting it a little. I really want this deck to be useable and hopefully with it feeling close to RWS newbies will find this deck an easy transition.

[52ravens]

Refreshed HP, no more prom dress  ;)

[katrinka]

Much better.

 

Any time you want to avoid being too RWS but still have a correct card, you can use Thoth composition and meanings, BTW. It's actually a more correct Golden Dawn type Tarot (Waite muddied things a bit for the public.) This is a good site with clear explanations, you can click over to different cards from the bottom of the page. http://www.corax.com/tarot/cards/index.html?priestess

[Padma]

Oh yes! Much better :) Thanks for your replies. Look forward to seeing the next card!

[52ravens]

Hey! Below are the next 3 cards, please let me know your thought or if I'm missing something important.

 

The Empress (Ignore the spelling mistake haha) - I think this one out of the three may be an issue for some people. The key aspects I've taken are abundance, pleasure, beauty, happiness and nature. A throne for this character just doesn't fit for me, so I've got her among the wheat watching over the nature she reigns over.

 

The Emperor - From the stone throne she surveys over everything, being responsible and confident.

 

The Hierophant - A little more magical to help tie in with the theme, but hopefully it doesn't remove itself from the meaning of the card.

 

Fingers crossed my research is getting better. Thank you for all your help  ;D

 

 

Golden Dawn type Tarot (Waite muddied things a bit for the public.)

 

Thank you, I'll add it to my reference list :)

[Little Fang]

I'm usually not fond of the Hierophant card, but this version is blowing me away!

 

I feel like I want to see more growth around the Empress, maybe some flowers, to really signify new life. 

[CharlotteK]

I love the way the Empress and Emperor harmonise visually. And agree about adding flowers to the Empress. As for the Hierophant - yes - this sparks my interest. The issue I have with lots of beautiful decks is that they are extremely attractive but don't spark anything. This Hierophant really does.

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

 

[Starlight]

I agree with Little Fang and Charlotte K about the Empress. Something that shows abundance, fertility, growth (pregnancy?) - so flowers, maybe fruit trees, lots of life.

[faerybraids]

I'm really loving your High Priest and Emperor cards! (I often have issues with both in decks.) Something doesn't sit quite right with me about the Empress, but it is close. (I was going to suggest adding bees for some reason, but then I remembered that wheat's pollinated more by the wind. D'oh.) My next thought was actually rain, like a light shower or something, but I don't know if that would mess with the colours too much... They're so nice as they are because of how they tie in with those of the Emperor.

 

I quite like when Empress cards features children and young animals, but I'm not sure those would go, either. They might mess up the balance a bit. :/

 

It's really strange in a way re: the Emperor because I actually feel like I identify with it. It and Death are my birth cards, but I've always hated that I never understood why the former was because I've never felt like I identify with it. Yet somehow your version bridges that gap for me.

[52ravens]

THANK YOU ALL FOR THE REPLIES, IF I DON'T RESPOND TO YOU DIRECTLY KNOW EVERY POST IS A GREATLY APPRECIATED  :D

 

Hey!

 

Check out the updated version,I've added a deer and fawn to the Empress card to show life and birth, so hopefully this helps and doesn't over power the card.

 

Let me know what your thoughts are, if I'm in the clear I'll post the next 3 cards :)

 

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I actually feel like I identify with it.

 

Its good to here you can connect with the feel of the card