Judgement is killing me

[322]

Okay it's only been a day but I'm back lol... Ever since I got my first deck a few years ago I've always gotten stuck with Judgement. Lately it's been popping up for me a lot and it's driving me crazy because there's so many meanings and stories behind it that I have no idea how to look at it, or where to even start when interpreting it. I've looked at all the articles and descriptions I could find, but somehow that just confuses me more. I'm curious to know how others have interpreted it, some advice on how to relate it to a specific scenario, examples of how it's been applied to a reading, etc etc any thoughts at all on this card are appreciated! 

Edited October 12, 2023 by 322

[DanielJUK]

Now you are at 5 posts, I've moved your Individual Card Discussions to the right section for them, Individual Card Meanings 🙂

[November]

Hi @322! I know how hard it could be sometimes to understand a card, especially when it keeps on popping out!

 

Anyway, generally Judgement asks us to make peace with our past once for all and move on for a new chapter. Forgive whom or what you have to forgive and turn the page.

 

Could this make sense with your situation? 

[322]

26 minutes ago, November said:

Hi @322! I know how hard it could be sometimes to understand a card, especially when it keeps on popping out!

 

Anyway, generally Judgement asks us to make peace with our past once for all and move on for a new chapter. Forgive whom or what you have to forgive and turn the page.

 

Could this make sense with your situation? 

Hmm okay that's an interesting way to think about it

[Misterei]

LOL I was just writing about the Judgement card for a presentation I'm giving on Sunday. Whew.

Like all of the Trumps. Judgment has layers and layers of meaning.

It *IS* one of the more difficult cards to understand imo ... it's meaning has changed through history.

On an esoteric level we have the idea of immortality--be that fame or the last judgement where the righteous souls rise up.

Then it might be a legal card and show up for a law suit.

Or a health card telling you to heed your doctor's advice.

It can mean so many different things in different contexts and reading styles.

I love this Judgement from Visconti Modrone deck 1400s [although everyone is relentlessly blond!]

The earlier decks always had 2 angels ... it was only with TdM and RWS that we started to see one angel

LOL, I just learnt that today while researching the history of the card };>

 

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by Misterei

[322]

3 hours ago, Misterei said:

LOL I was just writing about the Judgement card for a presentation I'm giving on Sunday. Whew.

Like all of the Trumps. Judgment has layers and layers of meaning.

It *IS* one of the more difficult cards to understand imo ... it's meaning has changed through history.

On an esoteric level we have the idea of immortality--be that fame or the last judgement where the righteous souls rise up.

Then it might be a legal card and show up for a law suit.

Or a health card telling you to heed your doctor's advice.

It can mean so many different things in different contexts and reading styles.

I love this Judgement from Visconti Modrone deck 1400s [although everyone is relentlessly blond!]

The earlier decks always had 2 angels ... it was only with TdM and RWS that we started to see one angel

LOL, I just learnt that today while researching the history of the card };>

 

 

Ahh omg I didn't know that either that's so interesting I think it's so cool to read about the history of the cards and it blows my mind sometimes how much they have changed over time

[Chariot]

@322 - I agree with you.  I also think Judgement can be a difficult card to interpret ...especially if it appears as part of a 'future' that hasn't unfolded yet.  I think Judgement upright is one of those cards that brings either a good ending or a bad one ...depending on what has gone before. 

Some cards always seem to indicate either a good/desired thing.  Nobody is going to get The Star upright in a reading and think, 'Oh, NO!  Not The Star! Woddle I do, woddle I do...?'  And some others indicate a challenging situation—you're not likely to receive The Devil or The Tower upright in a present or future reading, and think 'Oh, I'm so pleased!' (without being sarcastic 🙂 ).  But the upright Judgement is one of those cards you can regard with mixed emotions.  (Justice can be linked to Judgement, although the upright Justice means a fair result—even if you don't like it much—and the reversed Justice means the result is either delayed or not fair.)

For me, Judgement means 'the final exam.'  You've had all your study time, been given enough rope, had a chance to do all your work, answered the questions one way or another—now you can do no more. You've just sat the test. Your future hangs on how well you did.  Good luck with your result!

Judgement usually means, for me, that karma is coming home to roost.  It is the end of a process which has been building over time.  When Judgement is upright, the result you get is final.  You can do no more—other than move on, in triumph because you passed, or dragging failure behind you. But you can't go back and do it over.  You must accept what you have earned, and build from there.

I see Judgement upright as a neutral card.  It just means you have taken that final exam—it doesn't predict the result.  If I want to know how well I did, I pull ONE clarifying card to shed light on that.  If Judgement is reversed I read it to mean that the exam has been delayed. There is still more you can do to alter a situation—although you better get on it, as you are running out of time.

Obviously this concept of 'final result' can be applied to many things.  In relationships, it can mean  you've finally decided what to do about a person or a relationship ...they've had all the chances they're going to get.  You decide to get married on the basis of their behaviour, or give them the push.  In a work situation, you've either done well or you haven't ...but you're not going to get more chances to prove yourself.  You may give your notice at work, based on the way you've been treated.  In a family situation, you can finally decide to go no contact, if they have pushed you to the limit.  Or you can forgive them for things they didn't do right in the past, and decide to give them love instead of the cold shoulder.  What Judgement means in these situations is that the decision is final, and it's unlikely there will be another chance at the same thing.

Some tarot readers see Judgement as a call to be discriminating ...to use your better judgement to decide something, etc. That is a perfectly valid way to look at the card, of course, but I find that interpretation muddies the water a bit for me. There are other cards that deal with making choices.  I prefer to see Judgement as the result of choices you made, not the process of making them.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Chariot

[322]

6 minutes ago, Chariot said:

@322 - I agree with you.  I also think Judgement can be a difficult card to interpret ...especially if it appears as part of a 'future' that hasn't unfolded yet.  I think Judgement upright is one of those cards that brings either a good ending or a bad one ...depending on what has gone before. 

Some cards always seem to indicate either a good/desired thing.  Nobody is going to get The Star upright in a reading and think, 'Oh, NO!  Not The Star! Woddle I do, woddle I do...?'  And some others indicate a challenging situation—you're not likely to receive The Devil or The Tower upright in a present or future reading, and think 'Oh, I'm so pleased!' (without being sarcastic 🙂 ).  But the upright Judgement is one of those cards you can regard with mixed emotions.  (Justice can be linked to Judgement, although the upright Justice means a fair result—even if you don't like it much—and the reversed Justice means the result is either delayed or not fair.)

For me, Judgement means 'the final exam.'  You've had all your study time, been given enough rope, had a chance to do all your work, answered the questions one way or another—now you can do no more. You've just sat the test. Your future hangs on how well you did.  Good luck with your result!

Judgement usually means, for me, that karma is coming home to roost.  It is the end of a process which has been building over time.  When Judgement is upright, the result you get is final.  You can do no more—other than move on, in triumph because you passed, or dragging failure behind you. But you can't go back and do it over.  You must accept what you have earned, and build from there.

I see Judgement upright as a neutral card.  It just means you have taken that final exam—it doesn't predict the result.  If I want to know how well I did, I pull ONE clarifying card to shed light on that.  If Judgement is reversed I read it to mean that the exam has been delayed. There is still more you can do to alter a situation—although you better get on it, as you are running out of time.

Some tarot readers see Judgement as a call to be discriminating ...to use your better judgement to decide something, etc. That is a perfectly valid way to look at the card, of course, but I find that interpretation muddies the water a bit for me. There are other cards that deal with making choices.  I prefer to see Judgement as the result of choices you made, not the process of making them.

Ahh omg I LOVE everything you've said this resonates with me so well and it makes it make so much more sense to me thank youu!!

[Chariot]

14 minutes ago, 322 said:

Ahh omg I LOVE everything you've said this resonates with me so well and it makes it make so much more sense to me thank youu!!

You're very welcome!  And welcome to the forum as well.  🙂

I tend to take a very practical, pragmatic view of tarot—for me it's a language that enables me to learn about things outside my range of vision at the moment—so my interpretations can be somewhat mundane, I suppose.  I think there is a difference between doing a reading to answer a particular, practical question and doing a reading for meditative purposes.

Occasionally I do find myself doing the spiritual meditation thing, and letting the card take me deeply into myself and helping me to understand myself better.  I'm much more open-minded and intuitive during those kinds of readings.  But most often, I just want some sort of practical guidance to get me through a particular situation. My kind of pragmatic interpretation won't resonate with everybody.  We all approach tarot differently, don't we?

Edited October 13, 2023 by Chariot

[DanielJUK]

If you keep getting a repeating card, often called a "stalker card", I would read on why that is coming up as well. I take that card out, place it like a signficator and then ask what is its message for me? I then shuffle and deal 2 or 3 cards under it (or as many or as few cards are like).

 

I think Judgement or Judgment is a difficult card as it's so based on Christian ideas and imagery. The concept of the card is based on the Christian idea of the Last Judgement / Resurrection and the Rapture. In this idea, people die and then Angels (or God / Gods, etc) judge if you are worthy and deserving to be brought back to life. This is a belief in many religions in some form, think like reincarnation. In the card image, the naked people reaching up are dead and rising from the ground, none of them can escape the Angel above who gives them judgement of their lives. There is debate on the Angel but it might be Metatron, Israfil or this is Gabriel, they blow a trumpet to announce it is judgement time and they have arrived and they have a flag of St George. All the detailed symbolism is all biblical references, which is too boring to go into here. The idea is the Angel is judging the people who did good in their lives and deserve to continue.

 

Taking this into our own lives, this isn't so much about morality but about self-evaluation and reflection. There are the usual-written ideas for this card about rebirth, inner calling and an awakening, but these stem from the evaluation. The wake-up call of this card is realising how things are going and thinking about them. This might mean generally in life, a topic you are reading on or maybe some project or path you are currently on. This card is the penultimate Major (20) before The World (21) which is a conclusion, so a cycle in your life is nearly complete, you have so much progress but it's the last stage! This card is also linked to The Hermit (9) (they are both "Wintry" scene backgrounds) and so we are back to reflection. What is working, what is not? This can can be a bit sudden, like a sudden realisation but it can be really transformative. Also this card can represent us being judged and critiqued, for example an employee evaluation.

 

This card is like someone spending their whole life in corporate finance and then suddenly realising they just do it for the money and it's just drudgery! They want their dream of being a singer and want a career change! This is Scrooge in Dicken's A Christmas Card, the ghost makes him realise to stop being a miser and selfish and think of others and be more generous and kind. This is like going to see a Doctor or Hospital and getting that email survey afterwards to rate your experience. Your interactions are nearly complete but how would you evaluate the experience?

 

This card asks about what we have done before and what decisions and choices we made. All of us make wrong choices and right ones and our path changes depending on this. This card asks what we learnt from it and what could we change and also what do we need to change? It's also releasing our guilt and feelings about the challenging parts, you did the best you could in the moment but let's move on now, you are absolved of your past choices. This card often calls for making major decisions and changes and can be transformative in our lives or area we are reading in to keep progressing ahead.

[Misterei]

7 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

... and [the angel has] ... a flag of St George.

@DanielJUK  color me interested --- not boring at all!

Flag of St. George? The patron saint of the Greek Church? The guy who killed the dragon?

This might shed a light on the card for me. Opens up a whole layer of symbolism if so.

[322]

7 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

If you keep getting a repeating card, often called a "stalker card", I would read on why that is coming up as well. I take that card out, place it like a signficator and then ask what is its message for me? I then shuffle and deal 2 or 3 cards under it (or as many or as few cards are like).

 

I think Judgement or Judgment is a difficult card as it's so based on Christian ideas and imagery. The concept of the card is based on the Christian idea of the Last Judgement / Resurrection and the Rapture. In this idea, people die and then Angels (or God / Gods, etc) judge if you are worthy and deserving to be brought back to life. This is a belief in many religions in some form, think like reincarnation. In the card image, the naked people reaching up are dead and rising from the ground, none of them can escape the Angel above who gives them judgement of their lives. There is debate on the Angel but it might be Metatron, Israfil or this is Gabriel, they blow a trumpet to announce it is judgement time and they have arrived and they have a flag of St George. All the detailed symbolism is all biblical references, which is too boring to go into here. The idea is the Angel is judging the people who did good in their lives and deserve to continue.

 

Taking this into our own lives, this isn't so much about morality but about self-evaluation and reflection. There are the usual-written ideas for this card about rebirth, inner calling and an awakening, but these stem from the evaluation. The wake-up call of this card is realising how things are going and thinking about them. This might mean generally in life, a topic you are reading on or maybe some project or path you are currently on. This card is the penultimate Major (20) before The World (21) which is a conclusion, so a cycle in your life is nearly complete, you have so much progress but it's the last stage! This card is also linked to The Hermit (9) (they are both "Wintry" scene backgrounds) and so we are back to reflection. What is working, what is not? This can can be a bit sudden, like a sudden realisation but it can be really transformative. Also this card can represent us being judged and critiqued, for example an employee evaluation.

 

This card is like someone spending their whole life in corporate finance and then suddenly realising they just do it for the money and it's just drudgery! They want their dream of being a singer and want a career change! This is Scrooge in Dicken's A Christmas Card, the ghost makes him realise to stop being a miser and selfish and think of others and be more generous and kind. This is like going to see a Doctor or Hospital and getting that email survey afterwards to rate your experience. Your interactions are nearly complete but how would you evaluate the experience?

 

This card asks about what we have done before and what decisions and choices we made. All of us make wrong choices and right ones and our path changes depending on this. This card asks what we learnt from it and what could we change and also what do we need to change? It's also releasing our guilt and feelings about the challenging parts, you did the best you could in the moment but let's move on now, you are absolved of your past choices. This card often calls for making major decisions and changes and can be transformative in our lives or area we are reading in to keep progressing ahead.

All of this was helpful as well thank you! I'm now starting to realize why this card is so relevant in my life right now... I've experienced a major shift in my life (outside my control) which has caused a lot of contemplation, and has highlighted the need for self-care and self-improvement. In general the experience has been a bit of a shock or a "wake up call" and has brought up lots of emotional stuff for me. That's interesting that you say "none of them can escape the Angel..." Because I always saw it more in a comforting way, like the angel is finally there to "save" them, give them a message, etc etc... basically I just saw this image as the angel is there for them and they're relieved/ finally woken up? At least that's how it is looks for me 🙂 

PS I love how you mentioned "this isn't so much about morality but about self-evaluation and reflection" because I've read a lot of people talking about it being about morality and that never resonated with me, and I always felt like it was deeper than just morality... this is such a complicated, and in my opinion serious/major card and a lot of other people's interpretations just felt too simplified to me

Edited October 13, 2023 by 322

[322]

9 hours ago, Chariot said:

You're very welcome!  And welcome to the forum as well.  🙂

I tend to take a very practical, pragmatic view of tarot—for me it's a language that enables me to learn about things outside my range of vision at the moment—so my interpretations can be somewhat mundane, I suppose.  I think there is a difference between doing a reading to answer a particular, practical question and doing a reading for meditative purposes.

Occasionally I do find myself doing the spiritual meditation thing, and letting the card take me deeply into myself and helping me to understand myself better.  I'm much more open-minded and intuitive during those kinds of readings.  But most often, I just want some sort of practical guidance to get me through a particular situation. My kind of pragmatic interpretation won't resonate with everybody.  We all approach tarot differently, don't we?

Thank you I'm excited to be here! I think mundane is never a bad thing, especially because LIFE is mundane sometimes, not everything is as dramatic as tarot sometimes makes things seem hahaha... I tend to pull cards to either understand and organize my own thoughts better, to help access my subconscious/ intuition (lots of thoughts up there and very hard sometimes to decipher between anxiety, wishful thinking, or intuition lol) or to get guidance on a situation but I really should try using it in a more meditative way too. 

[Misterei]

6 minutes ago, 322 said:

... but I really should try using it in a more meditative way too. 

... Don't let anyone "should" you };>

I use Tarot as mediation and go deep into the esoteric stuff for sure ... but also for good old fashioned Fortune Telling.

People sometimes try to shame me for the fortune telling ... but eff em.

I claim it with pride.

[DanielJUK]

5 hours ago, Misterei said:

@DanielJUK  color me interested --- not boring at all!

Flag of St. George? The patron saint of the Greek Church? The guy who killed the dragon?

This might shed a light on the card for me. Opens up a whole layer of symbolism if so.

 

This is a little dry like I say and slightly outside my area, it's a long time in my life since I was into Christian Theology but let's go with it. These are bible passages....

 

Firstly 1 Corinthians Chapter 15 is the Resurrection of Christ and then us -

"Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all die, but we shall all be changed, in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised as incorruptible men, and we also shall be changed.” (51-52)

This section describes the Last Judgement and this is the last trumpet-call that someone would hear calling them on Earth. This is probably the inspiration for the card in most historic decks.

Interesting, in the Bible, the Angel is never named.

 

Second part of this is the Book of Revelation, Chapter 12

(3) mentions a Red Dragon menacing a woman (probably the Virgin Mary) and young child, "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads and his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."

It's suggested by some tarot authors that the flag of St George is a symbol of the red dragon. The dragon is slayed in Revelation and the St George slayed a dragon where he became a martyr for not changing his faith and refuses to persecute Christians and dies for the cause. He refused to worship the Pagan Gods. The flag here is a link to the dragon and St George and probably shows conquering the unknown. The Dragon in both revelations and the St George story could be an allusion to the subconscious.

 

6 hours ago, 322 said:

All of this was helpful as well thank you! I'm now starting to realize why this card is so relevant in my life right now... I've experienced a major shift in my life (outside my control) which has caused a lot of contemplation, and has highlighted the need for self-care and self-improvement. In general the experience has been a bit of a shock or a "wake up call" and has brought up lots of emotional stuff for me. That's interesting that you say "none of them can escape the Angel..." Because I always saw it more in a comforting way, like the angel is finally there to "save" them, give them a message, etc etc... basically I just saw this image as the angel is there for them and they're relieved/ finally woken up? At least that's how it is looks for me 🙂 

PS I love how you mentioned "this isn't so much about morality but about self-evaluation and reflection" because I've read a lot of people talking about it being about morality and that never resonated with me, and I always felt like it was deeper than just morality... this is such a complicated, and in my opinion serious/major card and a lot of other people's interpretations just felt too simplified to me

 

Of course it's how you look at it personally and when it comes up in that moment 🙂 .

I have seen some tarot authors say that the trumpet draws everyone to the Angel but others say the landscape around the people is rough and they cannot escape the judgement.

Revelation and the Last Judgement in the Bible are really moralistic! Not everyone will be saved by that angel, only the lucky few will be selected, they have to be a good person and have done good things. They also have to be good religiously, worship God regularly and have been baptised. I was extremely religiously Christian in my teens and now I am not, but one thing I learnt is that people who were the most moralistic in what they said, tended to actually have the least morals in their own lives and so this aspect of the card makes me shudder a little. It's deeper than that and I think the card is this deep self-evaluation! "Oh this is the wrong career for me!" has nothing to do with morality with this card but a realisation and revelation 🙂 . It's more Hermit for me than Morality.

[Misterei]

1 hour ago, DanielJUK said:

It's suggested by some tarot authors that the flag of St George is a symbol of the red dragon. The dragon is slayed in Revelation and the St George slayed a dragon where he became a martyr for not changing his faith and refuses to persecute Christians and dies for the cause. He refused to worship the Pagan Gods. The flag here is a link to the dragon and St George and probably shows conquering the unknown. The Dragon in both revelations and the St George story could be an allusion to the subconscious.

@DanielJUK Every Greek household has a St. George icon.

When you walk into a Greek Church you light candles for Virgin Mary and St. George before you even go into the church.

There's a connection between Gurdjieff and St. George. Too much to explain here.

The dragon as I see it from Gurdjieff teachings [which are based on esoteric Greek orthodoxy and Sufism] the dragon is the Lizard Brain.

As Hunter S. Thompson describes reptiles ... the primitive brain that operates on fear, food, and a fascination for shiny objects };>

 

Anyway, this puts an interesting spin on Judgment as I've been researching it.

I always associated the flag as a symbol of fame. Now I see it in a different light.

Thanks for that!

Edited October 14, 2023 by Misterei

[Chariot]

@DanielJUK - Your post above made me think about Judgement, and why I have given it such a relatively mundane meaning in my own readings.  I see it as a pivotal 'life-changing' consequence of previous actions—but not a cosmic one.

 

The imagery in most decks is definitely all about a Christian 'Judgement Day' and nearly always depicted with an angel, trumpet, worshipful or terrified corpses rising from graves, the whole works.  I have never been religious and this concept of a final judgement that makes you or breaks you for Eternity—judged by some Divinity whose rules I don't necessarily accept—just doesn't resonate with me.

The tarot, in general, is infused with Christian principles and imagery, which I don't usually mind, and can work around—but this card jars me more than the others.  I'm still working on it.

Thanks for focusing my attention on what bothers me about this card. 🙂
 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chariot

[DanielJUK]

@Misterei Saint George gets around, Turkish and Eastern European people also have him in their culture and there is also a Muslim world love for him 🙂 . I think only RWS has that flag and it could just be Waite liking English heraldry 😂🤷‍♂️. Another idea I just thought of, he was a crusader and chose victory before death, maybe another message.

 

@Chariot in the card there are "7 rays" coming out of the Trumpet, the little lines of energy coming out feature more strongly in other decks like TdM and many other historic decks. This energy is thought to be kundalini or divine energy. This is the "spiritual awakening" and "divine" part of it. But honestly it's how you see it and always glad to make people think 🙂

[Chariot]

1 hour ago, DanielJUK said:

 

@Chariot in the card there are "7 rays" coming out of the Trumpet, the little lines of energy coming out feature more strongly in other decks like TdM and many other historic decks. This energy is thought to be kundalini or divine energy. This is the "spiritual awakening" and "divine" part of it. But honestly it's how you see it and always glad to make people think 🙂

I like that idea better!  I will incorporate it into my collection of interpretations, for occasions when the 'test' idea doesn't make sense.  I can certainly go with spiritual awakening—rather than divine punishment or reward.  It fits nicely in the tarot trumps journey, coming after the Moon's hidden aspects, the Sun's all-is now-revealed-and-lovely aspect.  A spiritual awakening can then follow.  Yeah, I like this.  Thanks....

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chariot

[Misterei]

11 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

Saint George gets around, Turkish and Eastern European people also have him in their culture and there is also a Muslim world love for him 🙂 .

Yes. It's quite revolutionary in a way. A saint loved by both Christian Greeks and Moslem Turks who often hate each other.

Then again Gurdjieff was mixing esoteric Greek Orthodoxy with esoteric Islam ... no wonder he had such a colorful reputation };>

[KiMo]

I haven't much to add to what's already been said, but I thought I'd share an experience I had. 

 

For years I've had a 'thing' for annunciation paintings, and perhaps a year or so ago I was walking around a museum and came across a miniature version. It suddenly struck me how much this theme chimed with the idea of the Judgement card for me. A higher power of some kind, whether that be spiritual or mundane, is calling on you to take heed of a change that may be happening outside of your control. There is likely to be a degree of responsibility involved, this is not a minor transition after all, and that may be to do with evaluating your actions so far (and perhaps how you have been literally judged accordingly) or how you choose to deal with the change going forward. The change may or may not be welcome, but it's unavoidable and has the potential to greatly shift our lives. Of course that all can be applied to someone else in our lives as well.

[TekkieTarot]

Judgement has came up in my readings when people were/needed to forgive someone who hurt them. 
I've had this card show up to mean I’m moving on from something and washing my hands of it. But I’ve also had this card show up for a woman who lost a lot of weight and she looked like a completely different person. 
I had this card show up literally when someone was passing judgement on someone. And for my cousin when she remodeled her kitchen it was like a completely different look. Judgement to me is about release and transformation. Oh and also loud noises lol.