Where to buy a Thoth large pack

[brendanxx]

Hi, I'm in the UK and I'm trying to buy a large Thoth pack (I guess the green pack) but can't find anywhere that sells it at a reasonable price or has enough reviews to convince to risk buying it. Any suggestions most welcome. I'm looking to pay not more than £30. Many thanks

[gregory]

It';s not that easy to find these days. There's a few on etsy, but they come from the US so postage would hurt..

 

Maybe one of these would do ?

https://www.etsy.com/uk/market/thoth_tarot_deck_large?locationQuery=2635167

 

Amazon seems to have it for £34

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Crowley-Thoth-Tarot-Deluxe-Luxe/dp/B00UMD95YM

 

but careful with the size.

 

There are a good few on ebay; might be your best bet.

 

You could try phoning Watkins to see if they have a used one (they don't seem to have a new large one)

Edited May 6, 2024 by gregory

[brendanxx]

Thanks a lot , Gregory. I might possibly go for the Amazon one, but am concerned that if I think the illustrations and general quality are below par I will have difficulty getting a refund - we'll see - I'll check what my Waite pack says!

[Aeon418]

The Thoth Tarot is priceless. 🙂 But £34 quid!!!! 😲 Crikey!

 

It's been quite a while since I bought a new pack. I had no idea they were becoming rare. 

[brendanxx]

Have plunged and ordered the De Luxe Thoth tarot from Amazon - it's coming from Germany and only (only!!!) costs £27.90. I'll let you all know my thoughts when it appears.

Oh and another thing - is Perdurabo the best biography of Crowley? Any thoughts on this?

[Aeon418]

1 hour ago, brendanxx said:

Oh and another thing - is Perdurabo the best biography of Crowley? Any thoughts on this?

 

Richard Kaczynski's, Perdurabo, is a very good biography. However, the original 2002 limited edition was later re-released in a revised and expanded edition. Some people criticise the new edition for being too detailed and too focused on tangential issues. In places it begins to read like a reference work, rather than a readable biography. I mainly go to it when I want to look things up.

 

A highly readable and well written alternative to Kaczynski is Tobias Churton's book, Aleister Crowley - The Biography: Spiritual Revolutionary, Romantic Explorer, Occult Master and Spy. Aleister Crowley: The Biography: The Biography - Spiritual Revolutionary, Romantic Explorer, Occult Master - and Spy: Amazon.co.uk: Tobias Churton: 9781780283845: Books

 

With the exception of Charles Richard Cammell's biography, I've read nearly every single Crowley biography ever published, but Tobias Churton's was the one I enjoyed the most. Simultaneously detailed and readable. In my opinion it's very, very good.

 

Since the publication of the first one volume biography, Churton has gone on to write a five volume expansion that builds upon the original book and goes into insane levels of detail. But the original biography still stands on its own merits.

 

Beyond Kaczynski and Churton, the only other recent Crowley biographer of note is the ex-bass guitarist from the band Blondie - Gary Lachman. His book is certainly readable. But I found his finger-wagging and moralizing a bit much. If you want moral finger-wagging you might as well go the whole hog and try to dig out an old copy of John Symonds, who really stuck the literary knife in Crowley's back.

 

The two 2000-ish era biographies by Lawrence Suttin and Martin Booth are both readable, if incomplete, due to newer material coming to light since they were written.

 

Richard Hutchinson's, The Beast Demystified, is cheap but only partly reliable. Intermixed with some genuine research he appears to have made things up.

 

Colin Wilson's old biography as been reprinted in recent years. But it's basically a pastiche of John Symonds hatchet job.       

Edited May 7, 2024 by Aeon418
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[brendanxx]

Dear Aeon418 - this is SO helpful, I'll think I'll definitely go for the Sturton for the moment and then explore further. Much obliged.

[gregory]

7 hours ago, Aeon418 said:

The Thoth Tarot is priceless. 🙂 But £34 quid!!!! 😲 Crikey!

 

It's been quite a while since I bought a new pack. I had no idea they were becoming rare. 

 

It's the 3" x 5" ones that cost - I'm not sure they are even still in print.

 

I liked Kaczynski just fine. My issue with the level of detail was that there was so much that would have been better in "notes on the side". When a new person showed up, I didn't need to read all their old school history as part of the main body of text. I would have preferred to be able to look at that sort of separately from the "main story" if you see what I mean, I've also read and enjoyed Sutin; I am embarrassed to say I can't remember if I ever got round to Churton....

[Aeon418]

9 hours ago, brendanxx said:

Dear Aeon418 - this is SO helpful, I'll think I'll definitely go for the Sturton for the moment and then explore further. Much obliged.

 

There's a few more that that I forgot to mention.

 

Israel Regardie's, The Eye in the Triangle, is still considered to be one of the classic Crowley biographies. It's a little outdated today because scholarship has moved on since the 1970's. But the book's primary value lies in the fact that Regardie was one of only three biographers (the others being John Symonds and Kenneth Grant) who actually knew Crowley. Regardie eventually fell out with Crowley but felt compelled to come out in his defence, partly after reading John Symonds hostile biography. It is only a partial biography though, with barely a mention of Crowley's later life.

 

Kenneth Grant's early book, The Magical Revival (1972), contains some biographical elements that are reasonably accurate. But when he starts interpreting Crowley through the lens of H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos it all gets a bit whacky.  

 

There's also, The Magical World of Aleister Crowley by Francis X King. I think it was originally published in the late 80's and was republished under the title, Mega Therion somewhere in the early 2000's. But to be honest, even though I still own it and remember reading it, this book has left no impression on me at all.

 

Lastly, there's Gerald Suster's late 80's, The Legacy of the Beast. Despite it's limitations, I have a soft spot for this book. This was my first Crowley biography. Suster cut through a lot of the hysteria and B.S. that had begun to accumulate around Crowley post-Symonds, and presented Crowley and his ideas in a light that captivated my younger self and pointed me in the right direction. 

Edited May 8, 2024 by Aeon418

[Aeon418]

6 hours ago, gregory said:

It's the 3" x 5" ones that cost - I'm not sure they are even still in print.

 

I'm glad I bought some spares back when they were still plentiful and relatively cheap. Aside from the decks I currently use, I've got 2 large (3" x 5"), 2 standard size, and 1 pocket sized Thoth, all safely stored away and still factory sealed. And I ain't selling. Not even for £34 a piece. 😄  

 

6 hours ago, gregory said:

I liked Kaczynski just fine. My issue with the level of detail was that there was so much that would have been better in "notes on the side". When a new person showed up, I didn't need to read all their old school history as part of the main body of text. I would have preferred to be able to look at that sort of separately from the "main story" if you see what I mean, I've also read and enjoyed Sutin; I am embarrassed to say I can't remember if I ever got round to Churton....

 

The original edition of Kaczynski's book, published by New Falcon, was far more readable than the revised edition. But there were only 3000 copies printed. I'm lucky enough to own one. Comparing the two editions side by side it's obvious that a lot of background research was added. It must be over 100 pages worth at least. But a lot of it reads like dry reference material that detracts from the overall flow of the book. Despite this I think Perdurabo is regarded as the de facto biography mainly because Kaczynski is a member of the O.T.O.. "Maybe he has the inside scoop?" I'm not sure I totally buy that. In my opinion Tobias Churton's book is just as good and a lot more readable. Plus he had access to all the same archives as Kaczynski did, with extra assistance from Bill Breeze the current head of the O.T.O.

 

On top of that, the five supplementary volumes that Churton has written since the appearance of his original one volume biography, easily exceed the level of detail in Kaczynski's book and dwarf it in size.

• Aleister Crowley: The Biography.

Plus

• The Beast in Berlin.
• Aleister Crowley in America.
• Aleister Crowley in India.
• Aleister Crowley in England.
• Aleister Crowley in Paris.  

Edited May 8, 2024 by Aeon418

[gregory]

Oh sure. Kaczynski is a book with EVERYTHING, absolutely the de facto best. My only issue is TOO MUCH IN THE MAIN BODY ! I skipped.a couple of school histories This of course means that where I might have gone back to check a footnote, I may not remember where it was in the text.,...! But I see the original (New Falcon, 2002) IS out there cheap and even new in paperback. I might...

 

Does Churton's original stand well alone ?

[DanielJUK]

There's an old Thoth reference thread about the best books, do please peruse it and add to it -

 

[Aeon418]

3 hours ago, gregory said:

Does Churton's original stand well alone ?

 

Most definitely yes. It was always intended to stand alone. But in publishing space considerations are a constant limiting factor. There's only so much detail that can be squeezed into a single book. In fact Churton did run into problems with the publisher, Watkins, over the length of the book. And I'm sure Churton's editor would have had an eye on what a general audience would want to read. After all, a publisher wants their book to sell to as wide an audience as possible.

 

But after the publication of the one volume biography an opportunity arose for Churton with a different publisher to take a deep dive into Crowley's brief time in the Weimar Republic (1930-32). Because of that laser-like focus on one small period in time it was possible to go into much more detail than was ever possible in a more general biography that is intended to cover a subjects entire life. As a result The Beast in Berlin book is able to follow Crowley on his adventures around Berlin in the period just prior to the  rise of Hitler and the National Socialists. But because of the extra space, Churton is able to cast a wider net as he sets the scene and describes the Weimar Republic itself, it's vibrant cultural life, the art world that Crowley was attempting join, and the many and varied people that he encountered. That kind of scene setting just isn't possible in a general biography.

 

The Beast in Berlin was well received, and paved the way for the remainder of the series. But they are a special interest and probably won't appeal to a general audience.   

[Aeon418]

2 hours ago, DanielJUK said:

There's an old Thoth reference thread about the best books, do please peruse it and add to it -

 

Do Aleister Crowley biographies really fit in that thread? In biographical books such as Aleister Crowley in England, there are multiple references to the Thoth Tarot, the writing of the Book of Thoth, and Crowley's relationship with Frieda Harris. But I suspect people who's interest is rooted mainly in the Thoth Tarot deck itself would be very disappointed by that book, even though it does zero in on the time period when the deck was created. There's just not enough focus on the Thoth Tarot to make it an essential part of a Thoth Tarot library. And this applies even more so to all the other Crowley bio's I have read. 

 

Although, given the title, I suspect this thread is in need of a emergency Crowley-ectomy.  

Edited May 8, 2024 by Aeon418

[Aeon418]

On 5/8/2024 at 9:03 AM, gregory said:

Oh sure. Kaczynski is a book with EVERYTHING, absolutely the de facto best.

 

But does Kaczynski really include everything? After publication of the first edition of Perdurabo, Richard B. Spence wrote his book, Secret Agent 666, that explores the seemingly unlikely possibility that Aleister Crowley was an intelligence agent. I say seemingly unlikely because, at first glance, it doesn't make sense. But when it is pointed out that certain things in Crowley's autobiography, "The Confessions," don't make much sense either until you begin to entertain the idea that Crowley was recruited by the Secret Service while he was at Cambridge. Tobias Churton has included this angle in his biography, which is why it stands out from the others.

 

For instance, the usual story you find in most biographies tells us that Crowley joined the Golden Dawn as part of his spiritual quest. But there's also a track that runs parallel to this that says that he was also spying on McGregor Mathers and his sympathies for the Legitimist cause.

 

A correction. I said previously that only 3 biographers actually met Crowley. But I forgot that Charles Richard Cammell knew Crowley as well. But seeing as I've never read either of the two versions of his long out of print biography I will let it go.

 

I also forgot to mention two relatively recent biographies. Aleister Crowley - Man, Myth & Magick by Steven Ashe. I've only got this one on Kindle and it's been sitting at the 50% read mark where I left it over a year ago. Supposedly it is ".... written for the general audience with a simple elegance, but has enough surprises to delight the most hackneyed Crowley expert." I can only assume that the surprises are in the half I haven't read yet. The half I have read just seemed like a regurgitation of well known material. Nothing bad, but nothing new either. But I will reserve judgment until I have finished it.

 

There's also the very new semi-biographical book, Lion of Light, that is based upon a recently uncovered, unpublished essay by Robert Anton Wilson. Again, I've only got this one on Kindle and I'm only 20% in. I've never been Wilson's biggest fan and I doubt this book will change my opinion. But I haven't finished the book yet either and will try to keep an open mind.     

Edited May 9, 2024 by Aeon418
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[gregory]

Oh I reckon he was an agent, yes. I was "aware" of that long before Kaczynski, and it may or may not be true.

 

Cammell is on ebay for £15. In case you care !

Oh - did you already spot it ?   But £15 on abe.

Edited May 9, 2024 by gregory

[Aeon418]

55 minutes ago, gregory said:

Cammell is on ebay for £15. In case you care !

Oh - did you already spot it ?   But £15 on abe.

 

No, it wasn't me. 😄 I might have been tempted at one time but not now. I think I will pass. Plus I'm a bit reluctant to buy old used books online. I got caught out once when I bought a supposedly "good" copy of John Symonds, The Great Beast. Not only had the paper browned so much that it was almost unreadable, it also stank to high hell. It's not unusual for some used books to need a bit airing to get rid of a musty smell, but that one was beyond saving and I reluctantly threw it away. 😔  

Edited May 9, 2024 by Aeon418
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[brendanxx]

I have started on the Churton and it seems so far a capable biography, though he does make assumptions about Crowley's motivations which I find a little off putting. What I'm hoping for is some kind of explanation via Crowley's life as to why he adopted the views and beliefs that he did. Some kind of step by step journey that takes me to an understanding of why Crowley believed the things he believed in. In these occult matters there's far too much of "he went up a mountain and had an experience that changed his life" without ever going into details about what that experience was. I don't know if that is ever really possible but I am in hopes with Crowley because to follow his thoughts through the Thoth tarot I feel it's necessary to understand as fully as possible  why he thought the symbols etc. would lead one along a pathway to some greater understanding of life, man's relationship with the cosmos, whether life means anything etc. I realise that the usefulness of the Thoth tarot doesn't necessitate an complete understanding of Crowley's thought processes, but to start the journey Id like some sign of the cards being the result of a serious intellectual journey. Well, we'll see. Even as I read the cards are winging their way to me across from Germany.

[brendanxx]

Oh and while I'm here any advice on the best book on the study of the Thoth tarot would be very welcome - there's such a plethora of stuff out there.

[Aeon418]

1 hour ago, brendanxx said:

 What I'm hoping for is some kind of explanation via Crowley's life as to why he adopted the views and beliefs that he did.

 

To really begin to get inside Crowley's head you've got to "bite the bullet" and actually read Crowley. The book I think you are looking for is The Equinox of the Gods. In it Crowley presents the reader with a condensed autobiography that charts his spiritual progress up to the moment he received The Book of the Law in 1904.

 

Unfortunately the Equinox of the Gods has been out of print for years and used copies command silly prices these days. However the 100thmonkeypress hosts a good quality pdf of the text. I've just compared it to my print copy and it looks complete and correct.    

 

equinox_of_the_gods_text.pdf (100thmonkeypress.com)

 

I know many people don't like reading entire books on a computer (I certainly don't), but I think it is preferable to paying over the odds for a used book. I've taken a look at Abe books and my jaw dropped when I saw some of the prices being asked for a book that I paid around £10 for back in the 1990's.

Edited May 9, 2024 by Aeon418
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[brendanxx]

Many thanks - I'll search it out - although I fear it might be too esoteric for me. But I persevere!

[Aeon418]

1 hour ago, brendanxx said:

Oh and while I'm here any advice on the best book on the study of the Thoth tarot would be very welcome - there's such a plethora of stuff out there.

 

The "best book" is highly subjective. Objectively the best book is Crowley's own, The Book of Thoth. But Crowley demands a lot from his reader and frequently assumes a certain degree of prior knowledge that puts many people and leaves them confused. 

 

Perhaps it would be a good idea to brows through the thread posted earlier by @DanielJUK. In there you will see recommendations for Lon Milo DuQuette and a whole host of other authors who have written about the Thoth Tarot.

[brendanxx]

I see there's a book or series by Crowley called "The Best Of The Equinox" - is that a selection of The Equinox of the gods"?

Much obliged for advice about books on the Thoth tarot - I'll check some of them out

 

[Aeon418]

3 minutes ago, brendanxx said:

Many thanks - I'll search it out - although I fear it might be too esoteric for me. But I persevere!

 

Apart from the reproduction the text of the Book of the Law, the Equinox of the Gods is probably one of the least esoteric books that Crowley ever wrote. It's mainly biographical. Check out the link in my previous post and skip straight to page 50, where the real meat of the book begins.

[brendanxx]

That sounds more up my street - I'll give it a go. It could be exactly what I'm looking fort.