What Is in The Container that The Queen of Cups Is Holding?

[RickInBakersfield]

In the RWS deck the Queen of Cups is staring at the elaborate container in which she holds on to at the shore of the waters.

 

I notice that the container has "angel wings" on it, does the Queen know what's inside the container? Is there a mystery there?

 

What do you think is inside that container? What is the message here about that container?

 

Thanks for reading this!

 

Rick-

[Natural Mystic Guide]

8 minutes ago, RickInBakersfield said:

What do you think is inside that container?

I think that it's hot chocolate with some peppermint schnapps.  There's a spigot on the other side -- you just cannot see it.  It's a cold day at the beach.  She's got long underwear on under the robe.  The message is stay warm and be prepared.  It's really hard to download mystical insights if you're freezing.

[RickInBakersfield]

4 minutes ago, Natural Mystic Guide said:

I think that it's hot chocolate with some peppermint schnapps. 

I could use some hot chocolate this morning!

[Raggydoll]

Me thinks it’s the Holy Grail…

Waite had a thing for the Grail, even wrote a book about it, and he linked it to tarot. 

 

 

[RickInBakersfield]

I Googled the Holy Grail and one of the myths of the Grail is that it contained "miraculous powers" as it supposedly contained the blood of Jesus.

 

I didn't know Waite wrote a book about it.

[RunningWild]

She’s in her feels, or maybe just in her cups?  😁  Remember that she’s the psychic of the deck, water of water.  

[Raggydoll]

14 minutes ago, RickInBakersfield said:

I Googled the Holy Grail and one of the myths of the Grail is that it contained "miraculous powers" as it supposedly contained the blood of Jesus.

 

I didn't know Waite wrote a book about it.

The grail is a symbol for the sacred mysteries.  The queen of cups sees the mysteries and she also acts on what she sees (unlike the High priestess, who sees and knows but stays silent.) Wait says a little about it in the Pictorial Key to tarot. He recognized the grail emblems in the tarot suits, so the Cup suit is literally the Grail suit. 
 

Mary K Greer has looked into this topic quite a bit and she once held a webinar that was very interesting. She talked about her research on AT, for instance in this thread (she called herself Teheuti there)

 

https://www.tarotforum.net/threads/grail-mystery-rediscovered-in-tarot.106756/

 

 

[Raggydoll]

Here is what Waite said about the grail emblems and the tarot suits 

 

"The bare fact is: the Hallows of the Graal legend are the Cup, the
Lance, the Sword and the Dish. Upon studying a subject exhaustively,
sometimes a spark from heaven opens us so we see the whole thing under
a new aspect. We touch a deeper, electric root that binds everything—darkly.
For example, despite the number of critical works on the Holy Graal,
no one has noticed that the Hallows appear elsewhere. They are in the
antecedents of our playing-cards—the old Talismans of the Tarot.
Playing-cards are a prolific and nearly world-wide form of divination
and fortune-telling. We know nothing concerning their origin and
little of their distribution. I don't hold with doubtful documents,
nor speculations about earlier sources such as [de Gebelin's] Book of
Thoth that are full of folly and extravagance. There are traces of the
Tarot cards in the fourteenth century and they might have existed
earlier but, like the Graal itself, are lost to sight."

[November]

I've always thought it's her heart, so a symbol representing her emotions. She's scrutinizing the cup as she's trying to understand how she's feeling and why. She's completely in touch with her emotions. 

[DanielJUK]

I think it's interesting to compare her cup to the other cups in the suit's courts in the RWS images.

The Page looks at the playful fish flapping around in the cup of water, it's distracting. The Knight moves forwards, really only looking at that cup in front of them. The Queen has an ornate cover on hers and the King has his in his left hand but doesn't need to look at it and can do other things around it. I have always thought they have water in for scrying, the psychic / intuitive part of the Cups or maybe about managing emotions.

 

I often think of someone on our old tarot forum who got interested in tarot and found a psychic side to themselves. They posted after a year of studying asking for member's support. They wrote that they felt they had opened pandora's box in their intuition and psychic side and wish they could close it again, they had such regret. Members gave them advice but I have never read anyone having a negative experience at all, mine has been extremely helpful to my life, being able to connect with my intuition and subconscious. I think of this poster with the Cups, the Page and Knight look towards them trying to handle this, maybe intuition, maybe emotions. When our emotions are out of control, we handle stuff badly and we react badly to things. The Queen can close her Cup, she now has control. She can look or use it how she wants, when she wants. The King has the most control, they only need to look at it when needed and has it open again. This is not his only focus and can use it when needed. So they have progressively learnt how to manage this and control these aspects of themselves.

 

[JoyousGirl]

The following is my personal opinion, not sure if anyone else has ever suggested this.

 

I think it's manna, a spiritual food coinciding with dew - and dew drops might be said to look a bit like the yod - so a sustenance for the spirit from the spirit perhaps best to say "of the spirit" as in yod hei vav hei.  

 

Manna is apparently also supposed to mean "What is it?" (in Hebrew, not Greek) which we must admit the Queen's face tells us she seems to be querying. The Greek refers to the name of a plant, but other than that somewhat clear definition, we're not given that in Hebrew texts - a bit like Yahweh the ineffable name. Spirit is really quite nebulous, in everything - like this Queen of Cups who may be a Pisces (gas), a Cancer (Liquid) or a Scorpio (Ice) (please note these are my associations and may not reflect other opinions).

 

As for the grail, I think the representative of the Christ spirit drank from it at the last supper. To me rather than having held his blood, it's important because his lips touched it and the lips are where his words came from etc. We tend to have a special attachment to the heirlooms and objects our loved ones have touched and their spirit is held in them. They all drank of the cup - their spirit was one - immersed together.

 

Many ancient sacrifices would involve capturing the blood of the victim, which held their spirit and power. So that's another aspect of the cup contents - such an ancient thing.  With that idea, I think there's associations with the ark of the covenant, looking at the angels, and the mercy seat.

Edited December 14, 2024 by JoyousGirl
Clarity

[Raggydoll]

From the Pictorial Key to Tarot:

 

”Beautiful, fair, dreamy--as one who sees visions in a cup. This is, however, only one of her aspects; she sees, but she also acts, and her activity feeds her dream.”

 

So whatever it is and whatever it holds, the cup is a source of insight and visions for the Queen, and it helps her get into a dreamlike state. It’s interesting that Waite wanted to emphasize her active role; she’s not just passively receiving this information. 

[Mayari]

She is contemplating the contents. It looks like the chalice for Holy Communion. This one is elaborate enough the be the original Holy Grail.....so it is something of great emotional or spiritual significance for her

[DanielJUK]

@Mayari I have moved your post into this thread. It was in the wrong place before 🙂 

[xStardustx]

The cup itself is made of gold, elaborately decorated and she looks at it like she is in awe. 

 

Cups are all about emotions and matters of the heart. I always viewed the Queens as the internal and the Kings as the external. 

 

The Queen of Cups is staring at this golden, elaborately decorated cup because she realizes how precious, how rare, and how awe inspiring it is to contain such massive emotional intelligence, wisdom and understanding. 

 

It is only when we understand ourselves that we begin to understand each other. My take on this is she is fully comprehending, fully appreciating the path that led her here - to her throne, to this ornate cup that holds all of her emotional intelligence, wisdom, knowledge, etc. 

 

She is the Queen of her internal workings. The Queen of her own heart. She protects it, guards it, admires it and even keeps it in a very special place that is beautiful and admirable. Her heart deserves nothing less...and neither does yours. 

[Natural Mystic Guide]

6 hours ago, geoxena said:

the tears she cried over its ugliness

Yes, it's ugliness plus it is prickly and awkward to carry and to hold.  It probably weighs a lot.  Maybe she is contemplating or praying that someone will come up with something nicer for her to hold.

[Raggydoll]

In my opinion, the symbolism of this deck was intended to lead the attentive student towards a path of spiritual enlightenment. And that very real potential is still there. I am glad that some people still acknowledge this side of it. 
 

I studied the RWS for several years, and I still have a tremendous amount of respect for this deck. Sometimes I miss AT, because their RWS-sub forum there was so very good. I get nostalgic when thinking about it!
 

I don’t understand why this thread had to turn into silly jokes about the artwork. The thread-starter asked a good and valid question, and I wish we would have been able to continue this discussion on a meaningful level. 

[Natural Mystic Guide]

4 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

I don’t understand why this thread had to turn into silly jokes

We live in serious times and we can get caught up in some very serious topics.  Levity brings relief.  Laughter can bring joy.  Joy is the spiritual enlightenment that I am signing up for!  Sometimes you just have to laugh.  It can be very healing.

[Raggydoll]

In the lecture "Secrets and Sources of the Rider Waite Smith Minor Arcana" by Mary K Greer, she talked about the Grail myth, as reflected through the minor arcana. (I previously quoted where Waite clearly stated that he saw the Grail Hallows as reflected in the four tarot emblems/suits). The part of the lecture that revolves around the Cups suit is especially relevant here. Mary started her lecture by quoting two sources of Waite's writings, which especially connects with the ace of cups, but also bear relevance for the Queen of Cups and for the topic of this thread. I will share those quotes here. I believe that this lecture is still available for purchase through the Global Spiritual studies, so if anyone should be interested to learn more, you can head over there. 

 

From A New Encyclopedia of Freemasonry, by Arthur E Waite:

"On Good Friday, by descent of a dove from heaven, carrying a sacred Host.. the crown of all earthly riches were renewed". 

 

From The Hidden Church of the Holy Graal (also by A E Waite): 

"There is the flight of the mystical dove from the casement to inmost Shrine, as if the bird went to renew the virtues of the Holy Graal".

 

 

Later there is another quote, that I believe is from that same book, which says:

 

"The vessel was invoked, and it separated the good from the evil people. The good people experienced all spiritual delight and inward refreshment, but the evil were not filled, and they could not even see the Holy Vessel. Whosoever was seated there had the accomplishment of his heart´s desire. They were fed from within, rather than from without". 

 

I would say that the Queen of cups is one who sees the Holy Vessel, and who is fed from within, rather than from without. And I also believe that Waite saw his Cups-suit as a renewal of the virtues of the Holy Grail. Probably also as a resurrection of the true emblems. I mean, the suit starts with the sacred act of the dove, and it culminates with the Queen holding a traditional depiction of the Holy Grail (not to mention how the King of Cups bears a Fish necklace, connecting him with the "Rich Fisher", a.k.a. the Fisher King. If you didn´t know, the Fisher King was the last in a long line of Kings to guard the Holy Grail. The fish in the cup of the Page also reflects part of the Grail story.). 

 

 

 

 

[xStardustx]

1 hour ago, geoxena said:

Ah, @Raggydoll, I am sorry if my post offended you.  But I was serious in saying that I never really considered the thing the Queen of Cups is holding when the card has come up in a reading. 

 

However, I do think a sense of humor is important when looking at the symbolism that Waite thought was so important to include in the cards.  The Golden Dawn and other esoteric "secret societies" ascribed meaning and significance to a great many symbols and things, but those meanings aren't necessarily sacred or resonant to everyone. 

 

Regarding the legend of the Holy Grail, well it's just a story that emerged from romantic poems and tales told in the 12th and 13th centuries about a historical king who led an army 600 years earlier (Uther), combined with biblical stories about Jesus.  It is highly unlikely that the cup from which Jesus drank at the last supper survived or even existed.  Nor is it likely that it was some gigantic, golden bowl with a lid!  Of course, the tales are all meant to be allegorical, but the legend of the Holy Grail and the symbolism that has been attached to it over the centuries isn't meaningful nor important to me. 

 

The legends about the knights of the round table are equally as dubious.  In the 6th century there was a king who was considered heroic and the Arthurian legends were based on him, but those legends are basically stories that were either misinterpreted or made up to appeal to the romantic notions of the times, from around the 12th century into the 14th.  Primarily fictitious.  Just because the legends surrounding the holy grail also have to do with Jesus doesn't mean they are significant in any real way.  I'm sorry, but I just can't take them seriously. 

 

I am also sure I do not take tarot as seriously as many folks here do, but I am not a religious person and don't view the tarot as something spiritual.  In my opinion, the symbols in the cards have to mean something to the reader for anything constructive to come out of a reading and, despite all the research and studies others have done, ultimately how I read the cards will come from my sensibilities, my intuition, and my personal history.  I don't feel a need for an encyclopedic knowledge of all the symbolism to be able to read the cards.  Nor do I think that it is a terrible thing to be a bit irreverent about the artwork in the RWS, or any deck.  That's just my take on it, but it wasn't my intention to offend anyone with my earlier post.

 

I like to jump into the symbolism and know the original or intended interpretations but at the end of the day, it's up to me what it means.

 

I love fairy tales and King Arthur is one of my favorite stories - but it's just a story.

[JoyousGirl]

12 hours ago, Raggydoll said:

the Fisher King was the last in a long line of Kings to guard the Holy Grail.

 

@Raggydoll I'm glad you brought this up, it was something I mused upon regarding the question the Queen of Cups appeared to be asking - and associated with the story of the grail.  In one version, the question was the cure (Did the specific question matter? Or did it just matter that someone cared enough to ask questions?)  The question broke the enchantment. This opens up all manner of other questions and potential discussions. (Particularly critical questioning regarding the problems in the world today!)

 

Today, do many care to ask "what ails you?" (Other than one day of the year when some might ask "R U OK?".) That fits with something this Queen might ask (or seek to assist you to resolve in myriad ways). 

 

Either way, I'm sure everyone who has ever heard of the grail has questions - and wants to know its secret. This line of thinking is now bringing me to the Eleusinian mysteries. What was in the basket that was shown to the followers? 

 

A study group on the grail stories combined with RWS tools would be great. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2024 by JoyousGirl

[joy]

We love to hear everyone's opinion. Please let's move back to the topic.

The question of this thread - What do you think is inside that container that the Queen of Cups holds? What is the message here about that container?

[katrinka]

Nobody thinks the events in the Grail cycle actually happened. But it's not a "fairy tale" either. It's myth. A myth is a kind of roadmap.

In the earliest versions, the Grail was a stone. And there was no mention of Jesus. All of that was added in the later versions. And I think that what's in the Grail is the Kingdom of Heaven, enlightenment if you prefer. They're pretty much the same thing. The stories give little hints about that, about the nature of it. The neutral angels bring it down and it's right there, but we're prone to making some little misstep and letting it slip away. We're all Parsifal. 🤣
 

The whole Grail cycle is a kind of British Zen koan. It doesn't open up right away.
 

You don't have to "believe in" anything, just recognize that Waite DID.

The Hidden Church of the Holy Graal by Arthur Edward Waite
 

Edited December 19, 2024 by katrinka
Added link

[Raggydoll]

5 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

I'm glad you brought this up, it was something I mused upon regarding the question the Queen of Cups appeared to be asking - and associated with the story of the grail.  In one version, the question was the cure (Did the specific question matter? Or did it just matter that someone cared enough to ask questions?)  The question broke the enchantment. This opens up all manner of other questions and potential discussions. (Particularly critical questioning regarding the problems in the world today!)

 

Today, do many care to ask "what ails you?" (Other than one day of the year when some might ask "R U OK?".) That fits with something this Queen might ask (or seek to assist you to resolve in myriad ways). 

I’m glad you found it interesting, and you make a brilliant point. I absolutely think the Queen of Cups would be one to ask questions. In fact, Waite even wrote (in the PKT) that she is one who not only sees, but she also acts on what she sees. He also says that these actions of hers, further enhances her ability to see (I’m paraphrasing, but that’s the gist of it). 
 

So on one level, we could say that she’s an empath and an intuitive person, and the more she cares, the more her abilities grows. It’s logical; Our intuition becomes stronger when we heed it. 
 

On the deeper level, this implies her spiritual path. This too makes sense, the cup/heart suit is often connected to spirituality. 
 

I’m fairly sure that Waite considered the grail as an allegory for spiritual enlightenment, the same way that he viewed alchemy and the philosophers stone. 
 

5 hours ago, JoyousGirl said:

A study group on the grail stories combined with RWS tools would be great. 

I’m not very knowledgeable in the area but I’d find such a group interesting! 
 

55 minutes ago, katrinka said:

But it's not a "fairy tale" either. It's myth. A myth is a kind of roadmap.

Exactly, thank you for pointing this out! 
 

56 minutes ago, katrinka said:

And I think that what's in the Grail is the Kingdom of Heaven, enlightenment if you prefer. They're pretty much the same thing

Indeed. The sacred mysteries are the same as the Kingdom of heaven, and the ’secret’ would be that heaven resides inside of us; it is our divine nature. Alchemy is the process of refining ourselves; letting our worldly selves die, so we are ready to receive and hold the truth of our eternal nature - aka the white rose (a very crude summary, I hope it didn’t offend any practicing occultists ! I am just a layperson 😄). 
 

1 hour ago, katrinka said:

You don't have to "believe in" anything, just recognize that Waite DID.

[Raggydoll]

27 minutes ago, geoxena said:

But I still don't feel the need to study the symbolism and learn Waite's intentions

That’s not what this thread is about. TS asked about the RWS depiction of this card; the unusually shaped Cup and what might be inside it. That is what has been discussed here. I shared knowledge that I felt was relevant. You can’t expect us to censor our knowledge just because you personally aren’t into it.